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UNDERSTANDING CANNABINOIDS

S

Stevius

Member
I've updated the guide, thanks to Kodiak who provided new info's!


I have two things to say:

1. Thank you all who are contributing to the discussion. Really, some data is very comprehensive and some I can't understand properly cause of my lack of knowledge. But keep it coming! I bet this can be very useful and helpful to some people, I myself don't suffer from any diseases, pains, problems... but for those that do, I hope we all who contribute to this, are making their lives a lil' bit easier and more bright.


2. I must apologize to all of you people but I got very busy these days, especially because of my new job, therefore I don't have so much time to read up on all great things you posted and understand them. But I will try to keep the damn thing updated as much as possible with new data and useful informations!




Thank God we got Kodiak! Big respect to you bro! :)
 
Kodiak

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
No problem bro :good: I know that you've been busy and these things take time.

Thanks to all the good people who have contributed with valuable information, we have already made some progress.

Some parts of the guide need more work and there are still some loose ends but it's slowly starting to take shape.

It's like solving a big puzzle and many of the pieces are still scrambled, but one by one they fall into place.
 
C

ChynaRyder

Kodiak said:
It's like solving a big puzzle and many of the pieces are still scrambled, but one by one they fall into place.
Click to expand...

Well said my man, well said. The frustrating part, to me, is that the tools exist for us to quicken the pace of the unscrambling, but the fools that think that they must protect us from this great herb stand in the way. Why the resistance to what obviously works so well?

Mr. Charlie, i have the feeling that more and more labs are gonna start popping up, which is a damn good thing. I may bite the bullet and send a sample in, but I am science geek and would love to do it myself. Plus, my autos tend to change things up a bit with each batch...good for keeping tolerance at bay, but bad for standardization...would love to hear your ongoing results. I am gonna make a tincture from raw bud this weekend to help me understand whats going on a little better. Dig the new avatar bro, more cosmic charlie than mister...
 
C

ChynaRyder

partcleguy said:
I have an interesting article you might want to read about new areas of research into cannabinoids and pain. Its by Roger G. Pertwee called "Emerging strategies for exploiting cannabinoid receptor agonists as medicines." Its in the British Journal of Pharmacology (2009), issue 156, pg. 397–411. I have a copy if you would like me to send it to you.
Click to expand...
I would love to read this paper, partcleguy. I would pm an email, but you dont have the post count.
 
C

cateros

Member
Sheriff Bart said:
very nice write up!
although i just have to say i think its kind of funny you say its hard to find high CBD strains, its called hemp man!
if you live anywhere near or in the midwest of the united states, theres probably feral hemp around because there was a lot of hemp grown in the 1940s

also, you didnt mention THCA, tetrahydrocannabinolic acid, which is actually what is first created
now that i look twice i see that your pathway diagrams have the carboxylic acid forms represented.
this is an interesting component i think that people fail to realize, and that is that THCA is actually slightly soluble in water (way more soluble than the THC, the decarboxylation product) and has a quite different effect on the human body but it is also transportable by the cannabis plant.
Ive also seen papers, I can get the reference for it later, that indicate that THCA could be an apoptotic factor in the cannabis leaf which is responsible for leaf senescence at the end of the season/growing period. Given this as well, it is easy to find potent cannabis leaf. I am also not sold that the only place cannabinoids are made is in the trichomes, but there is probably a low level expression in a few tissues of the plant.

heres a fun (AND ITS FREE!) paper about THCA synthesis and the genes and enzymes responsible
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/erp210?ijkey=Rlg4SaHkouXCN6S&keytype=ref
i've taken classes with both david marks and george weiblen :D
Click to expand...

Actually I have read that THCa although non psychoactive if you have made hash using lots of immature buds it will contain large amounts of THCA and heating your finished product for 20 minutes at about 250 degrees will cause a carbon molocule to detach from the thca atom and it will be carboxolized into thc This is why they show afghan hash being heated in cheese cloth in the outer ring of hot ash around a fire.
 
C

cateros

Member
partcleguy said:
Thanks for the advice on opening word 2007 files! Here is my bibliography (sorry if the formatting is weird):

Literature cited
1. van der Stelt, M., Veldhuis, W. B., Maccaronne, M., Bär, P. R., Nicolay, K., Veldink, G. A., et al. (2002). Acute neuronal injury, excitotoxicity, and the endocannabinoids system. Molecular Neurobiology, 26(2-3): p. 317-46.

2. Kreutz, S., Koch, M., Böttger, C., Ghadban, C., Korf, H., & Dehghani, F. (2009). 2-Arachidonoylglycerol elicits neuroprotective effects on excitotoxically lesioned dentate gyrus granule cells via abnormal cannabidiol-sensitive receptors on microglial cells. Glia, 57: p. 286-94.

3. Zhang, J., & Chen, C. (2008). Endocannabinoid 2-Arachidonoylglycerol protects neurons by limiting COX-2 elevation. J. Biol. Chem., 283(33): p. 22601-11.

4. Biegon, A. (2004). Cannabinoids as neuroprotective agents in traumatic brain injury. Current Pharmaceutical Design, 10: p. 2177-83.

5. Pertwee, R. G. (2009). Emerging strategies for exploiting cannabinoid receptor agonists as medicines. British Journal of pharmacology, 156: p. 397-411.

6. Herkenham, M., Lynn, A. B., Little, M. D., Johnson, M. R., Melvin, L. S., De Costa, B. R., et al. (1990). Cannabinoid receptor localization in brain. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci., 87: p. 1932-6.

7. Hill, E. L., Gallopin, T., Férézou, I., Cauli, B., Rossier, J., Schweitzer, P., & Lambolez, B. (2007). Functional CB1 receptors are broadly expressed in neocortical GABAergic and glutamatergic neurons. J. Neurophysiol., 97(4): p. 2580-9.

8. Howlett, A. C., Breivogel, C. S., Childers, S. R., Deadwyler, S. A., Hampson, R. E., & Porrino, L. J. (2004). Neuropharmacology, 47: p. 345-58.

9. Khaspekov, L. G., Brenz Verca, M. S., Frumkina, L. E., Hermann, H., Marsicano, G., & Lutz, B. (2004). Involvement of brain-derived neurotrophic factor in cannabinoid receptor-dependent protection against excitotoxicity. Eur. J. Neurosci., 19(7): p. 1691-8.

10. Rahn, E. J., Zvonok, A. M., Thakur, G. A., Khanolkar, A. D., Makriyannis, A., & Hohmann, A. G. (2008). Selective activation of cannabinoid CB2 receptors suppresses neuropathic nociception induced by treatment with the chemotherapeutic agent paclitaxel in rats. J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., 327(2): 584-91.

11. Hampson, A. J., Bornheim, L. M., Scanziani, M., Yost, C. S., Gray, A. T., Hansen, B. M., et al. (1998). Duel effects of anandamide on NMDA receptor-mediated responses and neurotransmission. Journal of Neurochemistry, 70: p. 671-6.

12. Nagayama, T., Sinor, A. D., Simon, R. P., Chen, J., Graham, S. H., Jin, K., & Greenberg, D. A. (1999). Cannabinoids and neuroprotection in global and focal cerebral ischemia and in neuronal cultures. J. Neurosci., 19(8): 2987-95.

13. Sinor, A. D., Irvin, S. M., & Greenberg, D. A. (2000). Endocannabinoids protect cerebral cortical neurons from in vitro ischemia in rats. Neuroscience Letters, 278: 157-60.

14. Louw, D. F., Yang, F. W., & Sutherland, G. R. (2000). The effect of Δ-9-tetrahydrocannabinol on forebrain ischemia in rat. Brain Research, 857: 183-7.

15. Hallam, T. M., Floyd, C. L., Folkerts, M. M., Lee, L. L., Gong, Q.-Z., Lyeth, B. G., et al. (2004). Comparison of behavioral deficits and acute neuronal degeneration in rat lateral fluid percussion and weight-drop brain injury models. Journal of Neurotrauma, 21: p. 521-39.

16. Center for Disease Control. (2007). “Traumatic Brain Injury.” National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. <http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/tbi.htm>. Last visited 1 May, 2009.

17. Royo, N. C., Conte, V., Saatman, K. E., Shimizu, S., Belfield, C. M., Soltesz, K. M., et al. (2006). Hippocampal vulnerability following traumatic brain injury: a potential role for neurotrophin-4/5 in pyramidal cell neuroprotection. European Journal of Neuroscience, 23: p. 1089-1102.

18. Bigler, E. D., Anderson, C. V., & Blatter, D. D. (2002). Temporal lobe morphology in normal aging and traumatic brain injury. Am. J. Neuroradiol., 23(2): p. 255-66.

19. Yan, H. Q., Ma, X., Chen, X., Li, Y., Shao, L., & Dixon, C. E. (2007). Delayed increase of tyrosine hydroxylase expression in rat nigrostriatal system after traumatic brain injury. Brain Research, 1134(1): p. 171-9.

20. Wagner, A. K., Drewencki, L. L., Chen, X., Santos, F. R., Khan, A. S., Harun, R., et al. (2009). Chronic methylphenidate treatment enhances striatal dopamine neurotransmission after experimental traumatic brain injury. Journal of Neurochemistry, 108: 986-97.

21. Wagner, A. K., Sokoloski, J. E., Ren, D., Chen, X., Khan, A. S., Zafonte, R. D., et al. (2005). Controlled cortical impact injury affects dopaminergic transmission in the rat striatum. Journal of Neurochemistry, 95: 457-65.

22. Panikashvili, D., Simeonidou, C., Ben-Shabat, S., Hanus, L., Breuer, A., Mechoulam, R., et al. (2001). Nature, 413: p. 527-31.

23. Van der Stelt, M., Veldhuis, W. B., van Haaften, G. W., Fezza, F., Bisogno, T., Bar, P. R., et al. Exogenous anandamide protects rat brain against acute neuronal injury in vivo. J. Neurosci., 21(22): 8765-71.

24. McIntosh, T. K., Vink, R., Noble, L., et al. (1989). Traumatic brain injury in the rat: characterization of a lateral fluid-percussion model. Neuroscience, 28, 233-44.

Also about uploading the files- does anyone know a free one that lets you upload multiple files at a time? I really don't want to wait, upload, and copy and paste the url for each of the 24 files :/

Also forgot to mention (as you can see in article 3) cannabinoids can be anti-inflammatory by limiting COX-2 elevation after an injury. You may remember Vioxx and the scandal following the findings about its side-effects and blood pressure. Vioxx was a COX-2 inhibitor. COX-2 is an enzyme responsible for causing inflammation and pain.
Click to expand...
Yeah I remember that shit my Dr had me on it for awhile along with oxycontin and it almost gave me a fucking heart attack
 
P

partcleguy

Member
Chynaryder- sorry I haven't been on here in a while. I'll upload that paper soon and get back to you (out of town for the weekend).
 
marziano

marziano

Member
If i push the rep button harder, you will get the REP you DESERVE?

Great Job mate!!!

Show Respect for Nerds!!!

Your ''Math's lab rat''
M.
 
sac beh

sac beh

Member
This thread deserves a bump. Its a great intro to the cannabinoid system.. thanks for putting it together! There are lots of threads around talking about various aspects of cannabinoids and particularly the effects of CBD and CBD/THC ratios. This thread should be required reading first.

From my research, it all seems correct and up-to-date still. Just a couple of points...

-Despite various environmental factors being able to encourage biosynthesis of the cannabinoids, CBD/THC ratios are still mostly genetically determined.

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/163/1/335

-CBD does appear to have effects apart from its interaction with THC, since it is a general cannabinoid antagonist at CB1/CB2 and not just a THC antagonist. For example, CBD could play a role in immune system regulation and modulation of immune response pathways TH1/TH2 through its antagonism of endocannabinoids, the endocannabinoid system having been found to be very important in overall immune response regulation.

See the following:

http://books.google.com/books?id=t7PdDg1nrOgC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.ccrmg.org/journal/06spr/paradox.html
http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/4/486
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17245363

This study indicates up to 6 mechanisms of CBD action: http://www.finola.com/CBDreview2008.pdf

-There is evidence of CB2 receptors in the brain now, which indicates a possible CB2 and/or CBD effect on CNS, more directly than a mere antagonism of THC action.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1196/annals.1369.052/abstract
http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medl...f_its_therapeutic_potential_in_CNS_disorders_
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16472786

peace
 
Kodiak

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
Thanks everyone for posting all that valuable information, especially the comprehensive study on CBD from the Finola website. We really need to collect the information that has been shared here so far and update the guide sometime soon.

Yes, the cannabinoid profile is genetically determined and so is trichome formation to my knowledge. So we have two different things to look for in our plants; high trichome density and a suitable cannabinoid profile.

Perhaps the solution is to grow two plants; one that is high in THC and another that is high in CBD (like Finola/FIN314). That way we can preserve the BD/BD and BT/BT genotypes and therefore get maximum CBD and THC content from both plants respectively and then consume them separately for full effect.

The other option would be BD/BT hybrids, which brings Lowryders to mind. ChynaRyder pointed this out earlier but a lot of people are looking for high CBD plants and LR's are often overlooked for one reason or another. They would be suitable medicinal plants for those who seek high CBD to THC ratios, due to the ruderalis heritage.
 
H

Hh²

Member
This is wild and great info!
The other option would be BD/BT hybrids, which brings Lowryders to mind. ChynaRyder pointed this out earlier but a lot of people are looking for high CBD plants and LR's are often overlooked for one reason or another. They would be suitable medicinal plants for those who seek high CBD to THC ratios, due to the ruderalis heritage.
Click to expand...

This is thrue. I am collecting strains that suite for my medical situation and that of my wife. I was amazed with te power from LR2. Not the greatest weed for recreation purose but it works very good as anti-inflamatory med and anti epileptic in our sit.
Grts,
Hh²
 
Kodiak

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
I'm pretty sure that the first versions of the Lowryder plant contain more CBD than the newer and more refined versions, which have been selectively bred towards a higher THC content. The closer you get to the ruderalis parentage, the more CBD you should also find in the plant.

For the highest levels of CBD, I would try either Lowryder or Lowryder #2.

I found Lowryder #2 to be fairly vigorous and quite large (short but wide) by LR standards. It has good structure and breeding potential. The newer Lowryder hybrids provide a stronger high but are also a bit smaller in size. The scent and taste is a bit rough and unrefined but that can be improved on by allowing the buds to cure for a while and selective breeding. These plants have the greatest potential outdoors, where the sun can work its magic on the trichomes.
 
Sam_Skunkman

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
Stevius,
FYI, THCV is a THC Antagonist and if smoked pure it does not get you high at all.
I have smoked it pure.
-SamS
 
Sam_Skunkman

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
Anandamide is not a plant Cannabinoid, it binds to the receptors.
-SamS



Stevius said:
As far as I understood, and I'm no biologist nor chemist, the sole purpose of these receptors is to bind cannabinoids.

So if you ask me, this fact should end all the discussions concerning whether or not cannabis should be legal.
Click to expand...
 
Kodiak

Kodiak

Mad Scientist
Veteran
Hi Sam

Thanks for the info. Sounds like THCV has more in common with CBD than THC then.

Yeah, I think that anandamide might be pushed aside by the exogenous cannabinoids because they go for the same receptors. This could account for some of the memory related symptoms that are associated with heavy cannabis use.

The guide needs revision but Stevius told me that he will no longer be active on the forum. Since I cannot edit the guide it will probably not evolve any further, I'm sad to say.

Thanks for contributing :tiphat:
 
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