Stunted in Veg, new to coco

colo720 · Feb 4, 2018

Hi to all, and thank you for reading this post and hopefully contributing your experience based knowledge for how to get past this issue in the garden. These are varieties of Kush's, all from seed, all varieties have same issues so I don't think its the variety.
- coco and rock wool same issues - top drip recirculating hydro - ph 5.8 - 6.2. - house and garden nutes, ppm x500 between 600-800ppm, with tap water very clean under 100ppm. - most of the pictures, plants are 3-4 weeks old not including germinating ; so 3-4 weeks old in current media. - a few of the plants are excelling (are older by 2-3 wks), the ones I've kept as mom's, and don't have stunted new growth. - i've tried more calmag, raising lights higher (1000w MH), a day or two without lights (one of my theories is that these are in shock) - temps 70-84 - humid 25%-60% - water in res between 60-65. - the roots are happy, rock wool has white roots out the bottom, and coco has root tips out smart pots - sprayed/misted with calmag water and rhizotonic to treat problem if it is shock, slightly better but not much. - at this stage typically veg plants are taking off in hyperdrive, not stalled out like this. - I've experienced both broad, cyclamen mites and root aphids and i'm pretty sure not the issue here as haven't had those suckers in years, these came from seed, and nothing to be seen under microscope.

blahplunger · Feb 5, 2018

Are you using anything other than nutes in your res?If your ph is good and your nutes are good Id suspect a contaminate or a pathogen.You said the roots look healthy white though.Ive had this issue with new systems that I built.The pvc cement caused this exact same thing.I had to let the system run empty for a couple days and then fill with new water.What is different about this run from last?

colo720 · Feb 5, 2018

hey,
1. running in res: house and garden nutes, cal mag, ph down, drip clean, that's it
2. contaminate or pathogen may be the problem
3. the history of the last run... in the fall i had similar issues with veg plants stunting. there was also Botrytis in parts of the garden, bud rot specifically. so I finished everything I had going with those genetics and did significant sulfur burns, deep cleaning with h202, and new plumbing in the res's.

since that time i've had a successful round of auto flowers pass through the same veg area and into a flower area and the autos are kicking ass. the pictures i posted - with the lights on from the veg area, and the black background call it flower area 2, i re-plumbed all that as well before this run. and going back to this summer and before, there were no problems like this and I haven't changed any hardware like res's or trays. these stunted girls are from feminized seeds

Growdoc · Feb 5, 2018

how often does your system water per hour?

hazyfontazy · Feb 5, 2018

looks like overwatering and might have something to do with all the green algae on every pot ,cover the plants with white plastic

bud rot is environment ,too humid at lights off and not enough air movement

blahplunger · Feb 5, 2018

You said they are 3-4 weeks old in current media.Have they been in the current system 3-4 weeks?Has the res been changed in that time?Are the healthy plants in the same system?Was the system thoroughly cleaned after all that sulphur burning?Are you using the calmag and drip clean as instructed?If it were me id eliminate those two things(calmag and drip clean).You may need to dump the res and flush the coco.....If that doesnt work then you have something going on at the root level.I need a better picture of whats growing where and for how long in your system. In my experience sulphur isnt necessary.Ive had bud rot multiple times in late flower.Better to take precausions instead.And even when you do get it,its not that big a deal.People over react to it.Unless its a particularly severe case,you wont lose much. Ive also never had to use anything other than nutes in my res for almost 20 years(until now,I started using bleach because of a root rot infection).Simplify what you are doing to eliminate causes.

Bush Dr · Feb 5, 2018

Overfed, classic signs yellow in the middle out

colo720 · Feb 5, 2018

Hi all, thank you for the replies.

1. the plants where the lights are on are in the veg room. they're being fed ebb and flow 1x daily. i change the res 1x/week, and top up with fresh water and nutes throughout the week. yes there are healthy plants in this system. these plants may only need more time before sprouting up and out - but there are some signs of stunting that concerns me.
2. the 2nd area - the flower area - the pictures where it's black in the background. all those plants look to have the same stunting issue, in that area they're running on 2x res's. the frequency timer is set to water 2min every 3-4 hours. i change these res's 1x/wk, and the res is topped with fresh water automatically.
3. The girls in the flower area have been there 1 wk, yes system cleaned with vinegar, h202 and air dried for days. yes, calmag 4ml/gal and in veg the girls were soaking it up. drip clean very little, just .5ml/gal per fresh res

Action:
1. I agree the problem may be overfed / overwatered in the flower room - so I'm going to flush the coco and rw with diluted nutrient solution, say 200-300ppm, then run the nutrient solution in the res the same ppm, and only water 2x/day

2011rex87 · Feb 5, 2018

I need more pictures to be able to help you out more.

For the coco plants - do a runoff test and report back the PH and PPM going in vs coming out. Capture the first 0-15 seconds of run off, then separately the next 15-30, then 30-45 seconds of runoff.

To me they look overwatered and not over fed. Using a timed system to indiscriminately water your plants is a terrible idea in some circumstances. In almost all situations, a pot of 100% coco with no perlite cut into it is NOT going to need water twice a day unless your plants are 5 feet tall.... and even then it's a stretch... I work in a licensed production garden in Colorado using 100% coco. I grow thousands of plants. Some plants drink faster than others.. you would be surprised...

I would say stop automatically watering your plants for now until they recover. Hand water only. I trust you know how to tell when your plants need water - the pots will be paper light and will almost jump out of your hands when you go to pick it up and feel the weight. Same for the rockwool no exceptions until you get your plants back on track. Since you are in veg, I would say you will want to wait until not only the pots are dry but wait until your plants start to flag slightly from being so dry and then go ahead and soak the pot with plenty of runoff. Plants love the feast and famine of dry downs and soakings and dry downs and soakings.

Get back to us let me know what you think...

colo720 · Feb 5, 2018

I think overwatering could be part of the problem and I thank you for your input

1. In the setup, I have a small cup that catches the runoff water before it settles in the res so I can measure runoff as well as what the res ppm. I keep an eye always on runoff before adding nutes. anyway the res has been 700 and runoff 800ppm, which is normal. but today I unplugged the freq. timer and hand watered at 300ppm combo of calmag, HOG nutes, some cannazym, h202 and drip clean. the runoff was all the way up at 950.
2. The coco is Canna organic Coco straight out of the bag in 1gal smart pots, and some cases with 3" rock wool imbedded, which I used to start the seeds. its my first time with coco so i'm learning. rock wool has always been my go-to, but I'm looking for the benefits of coco
3. I will stop auto water. I'll go to hand watering, yes I know when - you're suggesting the same strategy used to successfully bring a seedling to life.

Action:
hand water with lower ppm - then wait for the medium to be dry, almost flagging leaves - before thorough hand water. I can handle this strategy and put it to work which is far better than guessing at some mysto viral fungus disease that I dread.

thanks again. if more pictures will help - what exactly more than what's already posted?

2011rex87 · Feb 5, 2018

The pictures are not oriented properly. They are sideways and need to be rotated around. I have to turn my head to see them correctly. The quality of the pictures is okay but the background is a little dark. It looks like there is ALOT of algae growth on the pots, and the top soil, and the rockwool. Then again it could just be the way the picture looks.

I think you are now on the right track. If your PPM going in was 300 and coming out was 950, there is a serious build up of salts in the pot. Continue to correct this build up and keep the water events on point and I bet your plants will look better in a week maybe less.

Bush Dr · Feb 5, 2018

colo720 said:
some cannazym, h202

Better make your mind up, that's an enzyme and a chemical designed to kill enzymes.. bin the h2o2

colo720 · Feb 13, 2018

Here's the update, after a week of limited hand waterings and watering with diluted nute solution, around 300ppm.

1. no more automated waterings. I waited till the media (coco or rockwool) was just about dried out and plant beginning to flag before watering
2. some plants in veg are excelling and either haven't got the problem yet or skipped over it - and are doing fine. some still have the new growth stunted (picture #4) - the effected plants are growing a bit taller, and new branches are forming, but its all stunted.
3. could the problem be pythium or aerobic bacteria? I'm about to water in the flower room (pictures 1-3) with Actinovate to try to knock out any fungus or bad bacteria. I'm also brewing compost beneficial tea to use in 48 hours.

I'm still at a loss for what is going on. Anybody who has seen this before and defeated it, or has any detailed help to give, I appreciate it!

2011rex87 · Feb 14, 2018

Honestly your plants do not look too bad at all from those new pictures. I see a little clawing and some slight droop but the color is there and the leaves are good size etc. If you have the ability to pull the rootball out of the pot and take a picture - that could help determine if your issue is in the media/rootball. It's usually a PITA to pull the rootball out of a fabric smart pot so don't worry about it if it's going to mess things up.

If you truly suspect an issue in your rootball - there are thousands of products sold to clean with. h202 alone can help deliver oxygen to your roots while cleaning away some unwanted debris and dead organic material. You would want to start low with a 1% then 3% then maybe 5% solution but do testing to ensure you do not burn up your plants. Too strong of a h202 solution will cause more harm than good.

There are tons of enzymatic cleaners for your roots as well. Specially if you suspect a fungal infection like root rot.

colo720 · Feb 14, 2018

Ok, thank you.

The problem is the new growth -- it's not healthy, it does not reach up the light and then extend out the way healthy plants do. The new growth on these plants is discolored, small, and lethargic. The nodes beneath the top, the new branches don't shoot out as in a healthy plant - their new growth is stunted in the same way the top stem growth is stunted.

I'll pull the rootball on one of these - I don't mind as I believe they will be duds anyway (they're mid way through week 2 of flower) - and take some pics. Ok, I'm posting the pics. The rootball appears to be ok - white firm roots. (all these plants are different strains, from seed. i start from seed using rockwool, that's why the 3" cube is there). the roots extending out from the rockwool look good. the first picture I broke apart the rockwool for a fully dissected view.

Just as a quick recap.
1. feb 5th flushed with 300ppm and 3% h202
2. waited for media to dry out
3. as coco & rockwool dried out, hand watered 2-4 days later with the same rinse.
4. last night watered with 500ppm (normal at this stage for my setup would be 900ppm) and Actinovate.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

2011rex87 · Feb 14, 2018

Ok.. Hm.. Good looking roots there.. They are small enough to make a full recovery while in VEG before you switch to flower cycle. I'll keep an eye on this thread and see if I can be of any further assistance.

colo720 · Feb 16, 2018

no change brothers -- any ideas?

Bird of Hermes · Feb 16, 2018

colo720 said:
no change brothers -- any ideas?

How do the leaves feel? Are they thin and feel kinda dry or are they soft and a lil fat? They dont look too bad maybe a little overwatered at some point. If the roots are white its probably good though keep a eye on your reservoir ph and temp too cold nute solutions and air temps can cause drooping.

Let em grow for a while and just keep a eye out if it got cold it couldve gone into shock a bit and slow down temporarily.

colo720 · Feb 16, 2018

the leaves feel a bit dry and crunchy. some of the bigger ones I just tried bending and the center vein snapped, and in some the leaf snapped in two. is the humidity too dry? i'm in normal conditions for my setup: here are the readings fresh off both sentinel climate controllers:

FLOWER area:
temp: 61 F min - 82 max
rH: 26min - 50 max
res 64F

VEG area:
temp: 69 F min - 89 max
rH: 24min - 57 max
res 69F

*these represent the past 5-6 days since last I cleared the memory.

i'm trying to be patient and let em grow, and they just keep looking like duds. I can accept this round in flower may be throw away, but the goal is to understand why so the problem plants in veg (with the same stunting) can be helped, and so the future doesn't look so bleak!

TanzanianMagic · Feb 16, 2018

Magnesium deficieny in late veg/early flowering. Which includes the preflowers showing up, as I found out feeding magnesium free reverse osmosis water. Magnesium deficiency already shows up when the preflowers appear, which should be around the 8th node or later.

I think the cause is lockout, and the plant just needs magnesium most at this stage of it's development. The temperature could be low, and you might need to get those pots off the ground, if that's the case. Cold would lock out magnesium.

Coco is not a complicated medium. I would say flush the coco long and slow with a solution of 0.2 EC of high P/K flower solution and a 6.0 pH.

Also, you might want to head for the pet store and get a bag of hemp bedding, and use that as a thin 1/2 inch mulch layer. It regulates the humidity in the medium, it excludes light so you don't have algae growth, and it also breaks down to feed the plants. And because reptiles absorb toxins through their skins, it can't have any pesticides and the likes in it.

Stunted in Veg, new to coco

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