The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

growingcrazy · Jul 19, 2018

reppin2c said:
I just asked a question. But to answer your questions.

1)I do sap in the field.
2)I don't send samples yet, that's why I asked
3)1:1 probably not but its working in the right direction

So once again but more specifically is there a lab in CO, CA, OR, WA that will take samples from average joe?

How do you like your sap meters? Would you recommend spending the money on them? Another question about them... I have read a couple articles on performing the AA@8.2 with a :xx minute shake and then testing the solution with meters. If anyone has done this, how do the numbers compare to that of Spectrum or any lab?

Sorry I didn't answer your question. I have not found a lab in Mi. I can't answer about the west coast. Snickels method would work fine with an in-state lab. That is, if they don't kick the sample back.

As of now, I only check brix levels in tissue. I am considering going to sap meters.

reppin2c · Jul 19, 2018

Hands down the Brix meter is the best investment. Something so simple but tells you a lot of info from a line.

The laquatwin meters are great tools but the birch part is learning how to use them. You have to establish a baseline and work from that.

If I went to buy the meters again I'd probably just get the PH meter. If I was trying to push limits I'd use the meters more. For a guy on his last season I learned enough when I did use them frequently to know enough.

It would be interesting to see someone do sap at the same time as they take they're lead samples.

Wonder if freeze drying your leaf samples would be a more accurate snap shot

jidoka · Jul 19, 2018

First call your dept of ag. You might be surprised how helpful those guys are. That is how I found legal labs in co and Cali

Second no it is not one to one. Look at Mulders chart.

Third no two circumstances are the same. I have seen people get in more trouble blindly chasing someone else’s numbers than any other way

Environment determines potential, not formula. Light (energy), temp, humidity, co2, air flow, etc. there ain’t no cookie cutter approach. Being able to dial the formula to that is the commerce part

When you see data as the be all, end all karma is fixin to bitch slap you for not watching the plants

jidoka · Jul 19, 2018

Wanna fool a brix meter. Load a plant up with kcl and watch your brix go up and your P go down

jidoka · Jul 19, 2018

If you are in OR contact www.apical-ag. SAP testing for real and most likely legal. David will tell you the truth

growingcrazy · Jul 19, 2018

jidoka said:
First call your dept of ag. You might be surprised how helpful those guys are. That is how I found legal labs in co and Cali

Second no it is not one to one. Look at Mulders chart.

Third no two circumstances are the same. I have seen people get in more trouble blindly chasing someone else’s numbers than any other way

Environment determines potential, not formula. Light (energy), temp, humidity, co2, air flow, etc. there ain’t no cookie cutter approach. Being able to dial the formula to that is the commerce part

When you see data as the be all, end all karma is fixin to bitch slap you for not watching the plants

Correct on environment. Nutrient profile changes for a given VPD window is what makes plants perform.

Was the second set of numbers that you said yielded half as much the same place that added the extra Si and whatever else (I forget) that you didn't Rx?

The best farmer is the one that learns from nobody but the plant. It will teach you everything you need to know if you know how to read it.

jidoka · Jul 19, 2018

It was the environment.

growingcrazy · Jul 19, 2018

jidoka said:
It was the environment.

Extremely high transpiration?

jidoka · Jul 19, 2018

Low light, low co2, low air movement

calisun · Jul 19, 2018

In California, Fruit growers lab does leaf tissue testing. I've used them quite a few times for soil testing and they seem to do a good job. They are one of the more expensive labs I have seen. They have a cannabis section.
Here's their prices
http://www.fglinc.com/frmAnalyses.php?choice=Plant+Tissue+Analyses&division=Ag

jidoka · Jul 19, 2018

You wanna get real about intellectual property and problem solving.

Literally 1000s of points of data collected and graphed, software exists. Given context 6 sigma methods can now be employed to first normalize that distribution curve and then move the mean to the optimum value

That is where some of us are right now

growingcrazy · Jul 20, 2018

What is the Y side? Co2? X looks like normal millibars.

I wish I had the $ to play with those kinds of systems. I've only touched one or two similar systems in large greenhouses.

led05 · Jul 21, 2018

jidoka said:
You wanna get real about intellectual property and problem solving.

View attachment 463436

Literally 1000s of points of data collected and graphed, software exists. Given context 6 sigma methods can now be employed to first normalize that distribution curve and then move the mean to the optimum value

That is where some of us are right now

That’s pretty sweet, it wasn’t too long ago folks were laughing at me for even discussing VPD, glad the times are a changing

led05 · Jul 21, 2018

jidoka said:
First call your dept of ag. You might be surprised how helpful those guys are. That is how I found legal labs in co and Cali

Second no it is not one to one. Look at Mulders chart.

Third no two circumstances are the same. I have seen people get in more trouble blindly chasing someone else’s numbers than any other way

Environment determines potential, not formula. Light (energy), temp, humidity, co2, air flow, etc. there ain’t no cookie cutter approach. Being able to dial the formula to that is the commerce part

When you see data as the be all, end all karma is fixin to bitch slap you for not watching the plants

RE environment, spot on, also to add if anyone piece is off, well it’s your bottleneck and drives the others, aka limits them, it’s why taking a macro and “why” approach vs following specifics and trying to make a few or all perfect is a fools errand, as GC said, the plants always tell you all you need to know...

Set a plan, chase it but know it’ll meander every year, every grow and you must too!

For example, for me, Jap Beetles and Stink bugs are fking with well laid plans, that and unprecedented low rains for my area

paradoxlost · Jul 21, 2018

As far as finding baselines none of it will matter unless you have stable genetics. If you are using seeds that supposedly are stabilized, they aren't, and even if you're using clones, the genetics aren't as stable as suspected.

growingcrazy · Jul 22, 2018

paradoxlost said:
As far as finding baselines none of it will matter unless you have stable genetics. If you are using seeds that supposedly are stabilized, they aren't, and even if you're using clones, the genetics aren't as stable as suspected.

Low N, high P and everything else. Those are the groups I have narrowed down, as far as strains. Within those groups you will see very little variation on the same nutrition. I found those by just running a lot of genetics in the same beds and then adjusting grouping based on needs.

Some plants may not perform the same due to your environment not matching, but that isn't the nutrition's fault.

led05 · Jul 22, 2018

growingcrazy said:
Low N, high P and everything else. Those are the groups I have narrowed down, as far as strains. Within those groups you will see very little variation on the same nutrition. I found those by just running a lot of genetics in the same beds and then adjusting grouping based on needs.

Some plants may not perform the same due to your environment not matching, but that isn't the nutrition's fault.

You can find this also holds true for most plants by running 30 different species of plants in the same beds, regularly. Although a good blend of the varying forms of N and Ca early on are a great blast off

- generally speaking this is a good and relatively easy path to follow and nearly all plants tend to like.

paradoxlost · Jul 22, 2018

growingcrazy said:
Low N, high P and everything else. Those are the groups I have narrowed down, as far as strains. Within those groups you will see very little variation on the same nutrition. I found those by just running a lot of genetics in the same beds and then adjusting grouping based on needs.

Some plants may not perform the same due to your environment not matching, but that isn't the nutrition's fault.

some plants not performing, to me, is a genetic flag. I'm in the middle of running 67 acres of hemp on relatively uniform ground as far as soil type. I posted the tests on slow's thread. It's crazy how out of millions of plants you get different phenotypical expression. For instance you get a plant that looks deficient right next to a plant that looks healthy. You'll get a 4 foot plant next to a 9 foot plant.

https://www.instagram.com/phytogenesis/

BushyOldGrower · Jul 22, 2018

Get seeds proven over time at reasonable prices... &#55357;&#56846;

led05 · Jul 22, 2018

paradoxlost said:
some plants not performing, to me, is a genetic flag. I'm in the middle of running 67 acres of hemp on relatively uniform ground as far as soil type. I posted the tests on slow's thread. It's crazy how out of millions of plants you get different phenotypical expression. For instance you get a plant that looks deficient right next to a plant that looks healthy. You'll get a 4 foot plant next to a 9 foot plant.

https://www.instagram.com/phytogenesis/

even if you used clones this would occur, there are so many variables beyond even our imaginations at play and that one little head start plant 9ft got, for whatever reason over plant 4ft created an unfair advantage and the rest is history, 9ft took over sun, water rights, nute rights and so on, anyone growing for even a few years any type of plants knows this happens, always

here's a good example of what I'm saying above, Garlic I just pulled yesterday, look at the differences in size for example among identical varieties, cloves pulled from the same head of garlic and planted etc, genetics & environment always tossing curveballs

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