Buying land and becoming a farmer

Lazyman · Jan 13, 2010

Yeah don't even bother trying to get into grapes man, I live in wine country (16 years) and the regulations are pretty insane. Land suitable for planting here goes for over 100K an acre, more if you want it near a road for a winery.

Organic indoor basil or strawberries, or find a niche crop you can supply to a local supermarket chain. Go ask the produce manager what they need more of!

jcochran · Jan 14, 2010

hey man, saw your post on farming. a lot of people saying seemingly negative things, but if you really wanna do it, i would say go for it. i grew up on a farm/ranch in a very rural town of 200 people, and loved it. most of the jobs I've had have been horseback, taking care of cattle, training horses, or driving tractor. livin in the city now for college, as soon as i get out im going back to the country. there's just something about the peace and quiet, nature and animals that you cant get here. what i would suggest is find exactly what you wanna do, and do a LOT of research if youre brand new to it. its not impossible, i know people that were raised in the city their whole lives, but really went at it and became successful farmers or ranchers later in life. the best part is being your own boss and working outside. depending on what you pick, it can be very labor intensive if you cannot afford to hire work (i.e., wine grapes, we have those too, and they're a pain in the ass, lots of monotonous work, but if you do it right, you can make some good money). if you really want to do it, go at it with full force and put all of your focus into it, because you can't go half hearted and expect good results to happen...and it's all on you, as well. land is expensive, at least where i am in CA, but if you do it right, you can pay a loan off fairly quickly with good profit. talk to as many farmers as you can. some tend to be closed off (especially farmers, ive noticed, not so much ranchers) but if you try to just be nice, polite, interested, and try to kind of speak their language, you can learn a lot. the best profit is the one you get from learning in nature, and just being out there with your crops or animals. to me, there is no more satisfying feeling, nothing else i would like to do, and thats what im gonna do when i get out of here. if youre into animals, try cattle or horses-beef cattle prices go up and down, but if you have a good breed, you can usually stay pretty even. organic grass fed beef is the new craze, and show horses (i.e. english, western show) makes a LOT of money if you can get your horses trained right....people pay upwards of 60,000 dollars for a really good roping horse. but you have to have a lot of patience. overall, its extremely satisfying, very fun, and you can see your own work progressing every day instead of working a meaningless job with no purpose in sight in a cubicle. it is all based on your work and success. thats why i like it. i would say go for it! if you have any more q's you can pm me or visitor message.....sorry for the rant man. id just like more people to get into it, its slowly disappering as cities grow increasingly large

fart star · Jan 17, 2010

yea If your interested in farming but are unsure about the path you need to take to achieve your dreams- start small in whatever space you have available. Vegetables grow fast and you get food the same year. Fruit trees take a few years for production to begin. Grapes practically grow themselves- really easy plant to cultivate.

Before you jump into something head first, you could also volunteer on a farm of your interest. There are many CSA farms (Community Supported Ag) around the USA and other places. They usually love to have dedicated, interested people who will put an honest effort into growing food. There are urban farms and rural farms of all shapes and sizes.

Really farming is the most diverse 'job' that exists. You can grow everything from ganja to field corn for Highfructose corn syrup or wool and duck eggs. The markets can be local or global! for fresh eating or frozen foods- growing plants for textiles or eating. Farming can be done in a gallon of soil in your closet or on 10,000 acres of praire land.

Its as big of an industry as your imagination!

Another kick ass experience that I would highly encourage anyone to seek out is the WWOOF program. For those who are unaware of this program, consider it like a farming hostel service for travelers. You purchase a membership to a country or region and you are issued a book that contains the contact info for all the farms in that area that accept travelers who are interested in working. You essentially trade your work for a place to sleep and food to eat. The experiences vary with the farms, and the trades are wildly variable also! WWOOF is available all over the world. (The link is to the WWOOF.org homepage)

If anything its an extremely cheap way to travel and see the real countryside of a country that you are traveling in.
.02 $

tiredoldman · Jan 19, 2010

I grew up on a family farm, raised tobacco, corn, wheat, soybeans, cattle, hogs, ran a dairy, raised sheep (all at the same time with two younger borthers). Also, I am an engineer (environmental). The level of knowledge about the reality of farming and its complexity just is indicative of the lack of scientific knowledge in the US by the "city dweller environmentalist". Organic farming requires an indepth knowledge of soil science, chemistry and biology. You remember, the part of school which required study, not picking your nose. Farming is a wonderful life, to be successful you must work very hard, long hours, manage time and money to a level unfamiliar to 95% of the population. Oh, did I mention, unless you have a family member you can borrow equipment from you also need the ability to borrow a half million dollars to start.

Mr Celsius · Jan 19, 2010

tiredoldman said:
I grew up on a family farm, raised tobacco, corn, wheat, soybeans, cattle, hogs, ran a dairy, raised sheep (all at the same time with two younger borthers). Also, I am an engineer (environmental). The level of knowledge about the reality of farming and its complexity just is indicative of the lack of scientific knowledge in the US by the "city dweller environmentalist". Organic farming requires an indepth knowledge of soil science, chemistry and biology. You remember, the part of school which required study, not picking your nose. Farming is a wonderful life, to be successful you must work very hard, long hours, manage time and money to a level unfamiliar to 95% of the population. Oh, did I mention, unless you have a family member you can borrow equipment from you also need the ability to borrow a half million dollars to start.

While I understand that you're trying to help and warn him, I believe you are going about it the wrong way. You have a generally negative connotation to the subject and that wont help anyone go towards their dreams.

I also find it odd that you were doing pretty standard "conventional" agriculture (IE corn, soybeans, beef) and you comment on organic farming.

Organic farming does require some knowledge, but not the depth that you're speaking of... it doesn't hurt, but it isn't necessary.

Step 1: Get a soil sample
Step 2: Correct ph and nutrient deficiencies
Step 3: Till
Step 4: Plant
Step 5: Harvest

I know I made that sound to easy and simple, and that is correct; but farming is basically these things. You start with the macro-knowledge of these subjects and then find a solution for them in the micro-knowledge.

Also, you don't need a half a million dollars to get started in equipment. I know multiple farmers in my area that make $100k+ each year from growing on 5 acres or less with just a tractor. One of the guys just borrows a tractor, he doesn't even own one. These tractors are small too, they would probably set someone back $5000 for a used one. Hell, I have a tractor (all-be-it small)!

fart star · Jan 20, 2010

Mr. Celcius, not to defend the tiredoldman, but I don't understand how growing corn, soybeans, and beef delegates somebody into the 'conventional' mindset?

and for what its worth, Farming for financial stability is a HUGE challenge. A truly sustainable farm in this day and age not only is in tune with the environment, but also in tune with its budget. There are extensive fixed and variable costs associated with farm operations, from land, insurance, labor, equipment, fuel, marketing, seed, vet bills, etc... With some crops you plant it and then wait three years before you see any returns. Thats a planting investment plus three years of management costs before you even make a penny back!

Farming for profit requires an intimate knowledge of the markets you participate in. Its really not as easy as plant harvest make money. What if your tomatoes are a later variety and by the time your looking to sell the market is flooded with maters and the price is greately reduced? you go broke

but farming to feed your family and have some choice smoke around is cake and everyone should do it, if only for meditation and peace of mind

Mr Celsius · Jan 20, 2010

fart star said:
Mr. Celcius, not to defend the tiredoldman, but I don't understand how growing corn, soybeans, and beef delegates somebody into the 'conventional' mindset?

and for what its worth, Farming for financial stability is a HUGE challenge. A truly sustainable farm in this day and age not only is in tune with the environment, but also in tune with its budget. There are extensive fixed and variable costs associated with farm operations, from land, insurance, labor, equipment, fuel, marketing, seed, vet bills, etc... With some crops you plant it and then wait three years before you see any returns. Thats a planting investment plus three years of management costs before you even make a penny back!

Farming for profit requires an intimate knowledge of the markets you participate in. Its really not as easy as plant harvest make money. What if your tomatoes are a later variety and by the time your looking to sell the market is flooded with maters and the price is greately reduced? you go broke

but farming to feed your family and have some choice smoke around is cake and everyone should do it, if only for meditation and peace of mind

Corn, soybeans and beef are our biggest crops in America and are considered under the classification of "conventional" agriculture vs organic/sustainable/biodynamic/biointensive/permaculture. "Conventional agriculture generally means and/or the following: Pesticides, herbicides, monoculture, GMO crops, salt based fertilizers, large planting and processing equipment that compacts soil, ect.

I hope I made that clear enough.

As for your other concerns... I agree with them, but with a little education are easily remedied. There are only 1400 CSA's (Community supported agriculture) farms in America right now and there is a huge demand for them. Most of the CSA's in my area will pass some potential customers along to other CSA's as they have sold all of their shares for the year. They are also sustainable in the means of what crops they grow, so they diversify their crops; IE if their tomatoes have a problem, they have around 10-30 different crops that they will be providing to their customers and making them happy.

The worst thing a farmer can ever do i sell themselves short and begin distributing to a single large bulk buyer that breaks down into the grocery distribution. This will net you the least amount of money and create the least amount of biodiversity on your farm. You want to use CSA's, farmers markets, gourmet restaurants, Whole Foods (each store is required to purchase food from X amount of farms that is close to them), ect to sell your food; this will provide the best bang for your buck.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

blackone · Jan 20, 2010

It's also a bit of a dream for me to become a wine-grower

Where I live in Denmark it's not really realistic - you would have to charge a lot more than the wine is really worth to make ends meet and quality of Danish wine is mostly so-so (or so I've heard - never tasted any...).
But in the US it's probably another story

Not only California but also Oregon and Washington State deliver some fine wines - I've heard that the best Oregon Pinot Noirs rival those from Burgundy, and even Riesling has been grown with great success in Washington St...

It will take at least 3 years before vines are fully productive - and according to some even longer before the quality of the wine is acceptable. A lot of pruning and weeding must be done - in the vineyards of my dreams I would be going organic, using geese as weed-killers in the summer, hehe. Perhaps even biodynamic - not because I believe in it but perhaps the small effort of burying a cow's horn full of manure etc. and money paid for certification would be repaid by a larger customer base.

If you're able to do this without starting a lot of debt then you're in luck

You could become self-sufficient with everything from meat to vegetables. Anything you DON'T have to buy is worth a lot more than stuff you sell...

grapeman · Jan 20, 2010

PermaBuzz said:
"The American farmer is the world's best. "

I disagree. they are the most mechanized, not the best.
Since the so-called green revolution after WWII, american
farming has become increasingly industrialized and sterilized.
Production has vastly increased but the quality and variety
has plummeted. These days, only 3 crops are grown much in the USA:
corn, wheat, soybeans. Why? because they are most suited for
factory farming. Right now, one of their biggest goals is make these same crops able
to handle high doses of herbicide/pesticide spraying without killing the crop plant.

Permabuzz - you are a moron. I don't care if you are secretly a greenpeace idiot that dreams of blue skies and fertile fields. But your lack of knowledge of farming in the USA, with high labor, land and material costs, and government interference is apparent. Despite these high costs, the American farmer thrives. Why? Yields, quality and business sense.

You can hate monsanto or Archer Daniels Midland and the machine all you want.

If you want to shop at your local street fair for produce and think you are getting fresh locally grown produce instead of 2nd quality produce I sell for cash out the back door of my plant to hippies in VW vans that deliver it to your neighborhood and tell you they grew it organically on their 10 acre plot so you will buy my culls and they can pay their bills, so be it. Be an ignorant idiot.

I'll say it again. American farmers are the best in the world.

fart star · Jan 20, 2010

Mr. C,
I understand your inclusion of those industries within the conventional ag paradigm, but I have to say I love me some organic corn, soybeans, and beef. Just to grow these crops does not make one conventional- maybe in thinking, but not in practice. They can and are raised in sustainable operations.

But the corporate versions of these industries-- thats a whole other matter.

The succession planting, season extension, crop diversity, and planning that go into a successful CSA is worthy of respect. For an inexperienced or clueless person, volunteering on a CSA is highly encouraged to gain farm knowledge. Not to mention they would probably gladly give you veggies in trade for labor.

Monoculture has in my eyes been proven to be a recipe for disaster. Unless all your land is in CRP. Thats the kind of monoculture I like to see!

Hey blackone- The biodynamic vineyard is the way to go! Grapes are really only susceptible to spring frosts and maybe some mildew- Not tricky at all compared to other crops grown biodynamically. The USA also has it pretty easy when it comes to producing wines compared to the known wine regions of Europe. It's my understanding that its against the rules to irrigate over there which is why the vintage is so important. In the states we irrigate everything, producing a more consistent product.

blackone · Jan 20, 2010

fart star said:
Hey blackone- The biodynamic vineyard is the way to go! Grapes are really only susceptible to spring frosts and maybe some mildew- Not tricky at all compared to other crops grown biodynamically. The USA also has it pretty easy when it comes to producing wines compared to the known wine regions of Europe. It's my understanding that its against the rules to irrigate over there which is why the vintage is so important. In the states we irrigate everything, producing a more consistent product.

I'm not sure if it's against the rules everywhere - rules differ quite a lot between countries / appellations... In Chablis they're using water sprays against spring frosts - dunno about irrigation for watering.

Gypsy Nirvana · Jan 20, 2010

grapeman said:
Permabuzz - you are a moron. I don't care if you are secretly a greenpeace idiot that dreams of blue skies and fertile fields. But your lack of knowledge of farming in the USA, with high labor, land and material costs, and government interference is apparent. Despite these high costs, the American farmer thrives. Why? Yields, quality and business sense.

You can hate monsanto or Archer Daniels Midland and the machine all you want.

If you want to shop at your local street fair for produce and think you are getting fresh locally grown produce instead of 2nd quality produce I sell for cash out the back door of my plant to hippies in VW vans that deliver it to your neighborhood and tell you they grew it organically on their 10 acre plot so you will buy my culls and they can pay their bills, so be it. Be an ignorant idiot.

I'll say it again. American farmers are the best in the world.

now now......don't be calling other members 'morons' and 'idiots' man......you can respectfully disagree but really there is no need to be insulting.....

ToughGirl · Jan 20, 2010

I live on a farm, and run my own greenhouses. I think it's a bit harder than just buying land and planting seeds. There's so much technicalities to everything it's unreal. Farm land is way pricey these days, at times ranging into the millions. You need to have it surveyed and have someone test the soils. Having a friend that works at the dept of agriculture really helps out quite a bit. You have to grow the correct crops on the correct land, it's more than just a PH factor, there's also a supply vs. demand issue. Tobacco is pretty easy to grow in mid southern climates, but I'm certain there's more to growing it commercially than just sowing some seeds. Do you have the equipment to properly cure it? It's not like mj where you just hang it upside down for a few days then cure it in jars. Also, who's going to buy it? You know that the taxes on growing tobacco are insane these days right? Coffee is best grown in sub tropical environments, ie South America and Hawaii. I don't know where you are, but I hope it's near the equator and your soil contains lots of volcanic material. There's also tons of equipment and machinery that you have to consider, will you buy or rent? Where will you store it? Do you have a good building or are you just going to let it rust outside? Same for the land, does your crop net more than what the mortgage/rent on the land costs. Do you like vacations and freedom and all that? Well forget it, those days are over. Luckily I'm a home body, but my gf gets really sick of not being able to do anything or going anywhere because of the business. Also hiring on the right people, and believe me this is crucial, but the right experienced people will teach you something everyday. I know it seems easy, but actually farming land is more than adding some perlite and worm castings. You need to watch for nutrient run-off into the water supply (contamination), and where it all drains, which usually involves major landscaping and catch basins. Where will your water come from in the first place? Well water and streams aren't reliable enough and they can dry to nothing on very hot summer. We just had a huge water buffalo installed, with a RO filter system and it cost me THOUSANDS of dollars. Environment also plays a major role in everything as well, one drought, or too much rain will destroy all your work, not to mention insects, or viruses, or deer etc. etc. etc.
I know it seems a great idea, but if this is what you want to do, you will need to go to school for a few years and really study horticulture and agriculture. (unless you grew up a 4th generation farmer). I also suggest working on a farm for a few years, experience is worth it's weight in gold, I assure you. Luckily I worked on farms in the summers when I was a kid, I had a small idea of what it was about, but bailing hay for a few summers only taught me so much. Spend less time here, and more time on horticulture/agriculture forums (that's where I am most nights), or reading book after book on successful farming. Even after all that, the farmers I know (that I consider successful) still work a regular job to make ends meet most of the year. It's a good life, and can be rewarding in so many ways, but it's a tough life. A few years ago I felt the way you did. I wanted a farm, and no one could tell me otherwise. Until I went to school for horticulture, I ended up opening a liner nursery, since it was the only practical things that I could do alone, or with one other person to help. We're expanding every year, but I'll be honest when I say that most of my income is not from farming. It's more like extra side income right now.
I wish you the best of luck, and if you are serious, you can pm me anytime with questions. I'll try my best to answer them, or point you to someone who can.

Trichgnomes · Jan 20, 2010

desant said:
In order of preference i would like to grow:

1. Tobacco (for cigars)
2. Coffee
3. Grapes/Wine

I think Toughgirl was the first to mention this, but depending on where you are, coffee may not be an option for you. There is a imaginary line that is referred to as the Coffee Belt ( I believe it is something like 24.8 degrees North of and South of the equator, don't quote me though) where coffee thrives, and simply does not produce as well in other parts of the world. Now if you are talking some geodesic bio-dome type shit, well thats a different story, and sort of a dream of mine.
There is a lot of great advice on this thread so far from a lot of different perspectives. I am not a farmer, but I do know a lot of farmers, and have lived somewhat vicariously through them at times. A lot of people may tell you it is not all that glamorous, you don't know what you are getting into, etc. Well if you want to do it, then do it, plain and simple. Do not let anyone get in your way. It has been a very short span in our history that other people grow plants for us, and it is only natural to want to get close to the land.

The best part about being in a position like you are in, is that you do not have generations of bad habits to get out of your system. Study microbiology, study ecology, and apply it to the crops that you want to produce. Don't let the NPK dogma get to your head.

buddymate · Jan 20, 2010

Got some land in asia,theres a couple of locals farm it,cant see myself doing that though I have helped with copra in the past,but currently they are growing corn.Farmings a back to nature theraputic exercise,its good for the soul sometimes to feel dirt on your hands.

grapeman · Jan 21, 2010

fart star said:
Hey blackone- The biodynamic vineyard is the way to go! Grapes are really only susceptible to spring frosts and maybe some mildew- Not tricky at all compared to other crops grown biodynamically. The USA also has it pretty easy when it comes to producing wines compared to the known wine regions of Europe. It's my understanding that its against the rules to irrigate over there which is why the vintage is so important. In the states we irrigate everything, producing a more consistent product.

Hmmm. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your ignorance of growing grapes. Not just the the backyard effort, but the year in year out effort it takes to make a product that is sellable or bottle able.

grapeman · Jan 21, 2010

ToughGirl said:
I live on a farm, and run my own greenhouses. I think it's a bit harder than just buying land and planting seeds. There's so much technicalities to everything it's unreal. Farm land is way pricey these days, at times ranging into the millions. You need to have it surveyed and have someone test the soils. Having a friend that works at the dept of agriculture really helps out quite a bit. You have to grow the correct crops on the correct land, it's more than just a PH factor, there's also a supply vs. demand issue. Tobacco is pretty easy to grow in mid southern climates, but I'm certain there's more to growing it commercially than just sowing some seeds. Do you have the equipment to properly cure it? It's not like mj where you just hang it upside down for a few days then cure it in jars. Also, who's going to buy it? You know that the taxes on growing tobacco are insane these days right? Coffee is best grown in sub tropical environments, ie South America and Hawaii. I don't know where you are, but I hope it's near the equator and your soil contains lots of volcanic material. There's also tons of equipment and machinery that you have to consider, will you buy or rent? Where will you store it? Do you have a good building or are you just going to let it rust outside? Same for the land, does your crop net more than what the mortgage/rent on the land costs. Do you like vacations and freedom and all that? Well forget it, those days are over. Luckily I'm a home body, but my gf gets really sick of not being able to do anything or going anywhere because of the business. Also hiring on the right people, and believe me this is crucial, but the right experienced people will teach you something everyday. I know it seems easy, but actually farming land is more than adding some perlite and worm castings. You need to watch for nutrient run-off into the water supply (contamination), and where it all drains, which usually involves major landscaping and catch basins. Where will your water come from in the first place? Well water and streams aren't reliable enough and they can dry to nothing on very hot summer. We just had a huge water buffalo installed, with a RO filter system and it cost me THOUSANDS of dollars. Environment also plays a major role in everything as well, one drought, or too much rain will destroy all your work, not to mention insects, or viruses, or deer etc. etc. etc.
I know it seems a great idea, but if this is what you want to do, you will need to go to school for a few years and really study horticulture and agriculture. (unless you grew up a 4th generation farmer). I also suggest working on a farm for a few years, experience is worth it's weight in gold, I assure you. Luckily I worked on farms in the summers when I was a kid, I had a small idea of what it was about, but bailing hay for a few summers only taught me so much. Spend less time here, and more time on horticulture/agriculture forums (that's where I am most nights), or reading book after book on successful farming. Even after all that, the farmers I know (that I consider successful) still work a regular job to make ends meet most of the year. It's a good life, and can be rewarding in so many ways, but it's a tough life. A few years ago I felt the way you did. I wanted a farm, and no one could tell me otherwise. Until I went to school for horticulture, I ended up opening a liner nursery, since it was the only practical things that I could do alone, or with one other person to help. We're expanding every year, but I'll be honest when I say that most of my income is not from farming. It's more like extra side income right now.
I wish you the best of luck, and if you are serious, you can pm me anytime with questions. I'll try my best to answer them, or point you to someone who can.

Thank you for bringing some reality to the discussion.

ROOTWISE · Jan 21, 2010

Grapeman and Toughgirl speak the truth. I have also worked on farms of all varieties for my entire life and their insightful and REAL analysis of the current market in the US is dead on......

As of now, we just produce as much as we can for our family. We raise and butcher Chickens, Turkeys, Sheep, as well as the full spectrum of fresh and storage crop vegetables/herbs. We don't make money on it but at least we know where it comes from and we always have something to trade for something we need. We also trade some of our hay for beef....and I kill at least one Elk per year.

I strongly urge you to just get started. We broke ground on vacant property in the Rocky Mt region 8 years ago and I wouldn't trade our experiences for anything. Take the leap.

RW

fart star · Jan 21, 2010

grapeman said:
Hmmm. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your ignorance of growing grapes. Not just the the backyard effort, but the year in year out effort it takes to make a product that is sellable or bottle able.

I'm talking about growing the vine not processing the harvest/marketing it. google biodynamic wine and see how prevelant it is. When comparing high value crops grapes are one of the easiest to grow biodynamically. Making a fine wine is alot different than growing grapes.

I really think that you should check yourself- I have been around vineyards my entire life.

edit.

And in reference to my post about it being 'easy' in the USA, it was in the context of producing a more consistent grape harvest due to the available irrigation during the growing season.

Mr Celsius · Jan 21, 2010

The pessimists in this thread have struck me as being monoculture-at-the-hands-of-large-corporate-buyers growers.

If you have biodiversity, you aren't going to need all this crazy equipment, you aren't going to have the problems of selling your harvest, you aren't going to need to use pesticides, herbicides, GMO's or commercial fertilizers.

All I can say is, you make your lives harder and less profitable. Then again, I guess America needs someone producing 4000000 lbs of grapes so Walmart can stock their shelves.... why would anyone just buy from a local producer at a farmers market for near the same price.... while that farmer can also sell other crops, make a fair wage and have a better quality of life.

Honestly, I think I'm done with this thread. I've said my piece, hopefully someone will learn from what I said.

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