Danger of Al+++ Solubility Aluminum Silicate Clays (Azomite, Bentonite,...)

Cvh · Nov 1, 2018

Hi all,

Looking at the mineral content of products like Azomite, Bentonite and several other Basalt/Rock dusts.
I notice that these all contain a very high aluminum percentage.
Even up to 10-20% depending on the origin.

Mineral Content Azomite (11% Al):
https://www.azomiteinternational.com/resources/coa.pdf

This is because many of these products are Aluminosilicate Clays (Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate or HSCAS).

But I read conflicting opinions about the solubility of the aluminum in these products.

Some sources state that's nothing to worry about because it is bound firmly.
Other sources state that the aluminum can become soluble and absorbed by the plant when it reacts with fulvic acid into the soil with the pH in range. (See quote below).

Aluminosilicate and Fulvic acid:

Here is a statement from Dr. Faust at BioAg on the alumina-silicates in Azomite, and the effect humic/fulvic acids can have on them: "Typically, aluminum constitutes about 10-20% of these clays.

The claim made by sellers is that the aluminum is bound in the silicate structure and is therefore not biologically active.
This may be true from a chemistry standpoint, when only examining the clay itself, but is not the case when it is reacted with fulvic acid. So the caveat here is that fulvic acid is well documented to dissolve silicates as well as mono, di, and polyvalent cations (positively charged ions).

This means that fulvic acid binds and retains these minerals in a bio-available form for cell penetration or uptake.
Now the aluminum has a very high biological significance, unfortunately a toxic one."

Here is an excerpt: Very little Al+++ in the soil solution is required to cause damage to most plants.
Few, if any plants grown for commercial purposes in this country will tolerate more than 1.0 ppm of soluble Al+++, and most will have some problems at levels greater than 0.5 ppm.

Since Al is the most abundant element in the soil, but the soluble Al+++ is the toxic form, we need to know how much Al+++ is present in the soil and what controls its availability to plants. The availability of Al+++ is not completely understood, but certain soil factors are known to have a significant effect:

- The total amount of Al present in a particular soil type
- The soil pH
- The types and amounts of clay in the soil
- Soilorganic matter

The last one, soil organic matter, is important because organic matter produces humic and fulvic acids... which are chelating agents that break apart the alumina-silicate bond.
If you start adding more humic/fulvic (which is normally good), you are going to drastically increase the soluble Al+++, which is the toxic form.

And you may not even recognize it as an Aluminum toxicity problem... Here's another excerpt:
Excess soluble/available aluminum (Al+++) is toxic to plants and causes multiple other problems. Some of the more important problems include...

- Direct toxicity, primarily seen as stunted roots
- Reduces the availability of phosphorus (P), through the formation of Al-P compounds
- Reduces the availability of sulfur (S), through the formation of Al-S compounds
- Reduces the availability of other nutrient cations through competitive interaction

So it may appear to be a Phosphorus deficiency, when it is actually aluminum toxicity interfering with P uptake.

What's your opinion? Is this something to be worried about?

I don't want to get Alzheimers...
(Possible link between aluminum and Alzheimer's disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21157018)

Douglas.Curtis · Nov 1, 2018

My opinion would be an uneducated one on the subject, so I have to say I don't know.

I don't want alzheimer's either.

troutman · Nov 1, 2018

All clay have aluminum in them. But it's normally locked away unless extremes in pH occur.
As long as you stay above pH 6 and below 7 you won't have aluminum issues.

Cvh · Nov 1, 2018

troutman said:
All clay have aluminum in them. But it's normally locked away unless extremes in pH occur.
As long as you stay above pH 6 and below 7 you won't have aluminum issues.

True. Here is a study I found about it.
https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Soil_Aluminum_and_test_interpretation.htm

But I'm still worried about the reaction with Humic/Fulvic acids and their chelating properties when the pH of the soil is in range.
(See also the quote into the initial post).

Does anyone have a tissue sample analysis from Cannabis grown in Azomite, Bentonite,... amended soil?

Dog Star · Nov 1, 2018

What kind of body deodorant you use Cvh???

Deodorants contain usually aluminium,we put this on our skin...

Cvh · Nov 1, 2018

Dog Star said:
What kind of body deodorant you use Cvh???

Deodorants contain usually aluminium,we put this on our skin...

I knew this already. I avoid the once which contain aluminum based salts.
I had once a deodorant which left a fine white powder. I first thought it was talc but when I read the label it said it was some kind of aluminum salt...

It's also in a lot of make-up's and creams women use.

Dog Star · Nov 1, 2018

Ya man.. good choice,am also use non aluminium deodorant.. but what i also
wish to say.. those industries that will need to proper suit consumers usually use
lot of different chemical,mineral or metal that harms people in worst way..

you need to be informed very good and still you cant avoid polution or
later problems with health cause you used something that needed to be
benevolent in nature.. while truth is you poisson yourself day by day..

Industries are interconnected in huge human mass extinction event or to produce
illnesses that will need expensive treatments..

Weird · Nov 1, 2018

I avoid it for this reason (azomite in particular)

I recall coot explaining a potential problem with it and fulvics in particular but I don't remember the details

wetdog · Nov 1, 2018

Weird said:
I avoid it for this reason (azomite in particular)

I recall coot explaining a potential problem with it and fulvics in particular but I don't remember the details

The basic details were:

The BioAg product worked a little TOO well and was way more concentrated than remotely necessary. Homegrown VC provided all the Humic and Fulvic needed and adding more caused issues.

If you soil was above the pH of a peat bog and anywhere close to what was needed for normal plants (between 6.0 and 7.0), there was no issue with Aluminium becoming available.

In short, with a well buffered mix and using VC for your humic and fulvic needs there was nothing to be concerned with. I've been using Azomite for over 8 years now with no issues.

Wet

Microbeman · Nov 2, 2018

I've never used Azomite but have used various forms of bentonite, pyrophyllite and other montmorillonites. Azomite just seemed an overpriced version to me.

Much of the world is composed of aluminosilicates (silicates 27% - aluminium 8% ?) so I don't spend time worrying about clays in their natural form. Manmade concentrates may be a different story.

Some of these clays I've acquired directly from mines or quarries so have had metals testing performed to check for toxic levels.

DTOM420 · Nov 2, 2018

Microbeman said:
I've never used Azomite but have used various forms of bentonite, pyrophyllite and other montmorillonites. Azomite just seemed an overpriced version to me.

Much of the world is composed of aluminosilicates (silicates 27% - aluminium 8% ?) so I don't spend time worrying about clays in their natural form. Manmade concentrates may be a different story.

Some of these clays I've acquired directly from mines or quarries so have had metals testing performed to check for toxic levels.

^^This^^ very well said! @Dog Star as well!

Any man-made product carries the potential to cause concerns in my mind. Nature made products, not so much. Sometimes I think we look too deep and are to afraid of stuff; or maybe it’s just the old adage, “a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.” Look at all the hubbub about Neem. I’ve got enough to worry about just trying to keep my plants growing well. Now, I wouldn’t be making a pipe out of tin foil, either. Lol!

MJPassion · Nov 2, 2018

Aluminum is one of the most abundant metals on this earth!

It is absolutely impossible to avoid exposure but it can be minimized.
I've been using Azomite for years. Not sure what it does other than add much needed minerals and CEC to a nearly dead soil.

Ratzilla · Nov 2, 2018

I also do not worry about Aluminum for I opine that the pH would need to be quite low for it to be available and your plants would die first!
I love using Bentonite clay and Zeolite as well for rising the CEC of my medium.
There are different forms of Bentonite clay i try and not use any that is high in sodium.
Ratz :tiphat:

Cvh · Nov 2, 2018

Thank you all. Reading all your posts comforts me greatly.

I love the effect of aluminosilicates on my plants and don't want to give it up.

People have been growing in them for millennia and praised the results.

Aluminum is indeed also one of the most abundant elements in the world. And present in large percentages in nearly any clay.

I think it's indeed best to not look so deeply into things.
I also don't use much, around 1-3 tbs a gallon (15-45 ml / 4l) of soil in total.

Microbeman · Nov 2, 2018

MJPassion said:
Aluminum is one of the most abundant metals on this earth!

It is absolutely impossible to avoid exposure but it can be minimized.
I've been using Azomite for years. Not sure what it does other than add much needed minerals and CEC to a nearly dead soil.

I heard that Azomite can cause left eye blinking-winkers syndrome (BWS) in .00014% of the population. This has been documented in Joey Winker's Super Science monthly blog.

He first noticed this effect in himself when smoking a jay at neighbor Dave's. His left eye began winking and weeping after taking some heavy hits.

"Dave. What did you use in yer soil man?" "Jus the usual mang... ya know the kooties mix with azormite n' neem n' crab n stuff"
"Hmmm, can't be the neem cause I din't puke so must be the azomite.....sheeeiit."
"But Joey! Don't ya remember after that big blast you wacked yer head on the corner of my coffee table?" "What? Oh that ain't nuthin I do that all the time. This is different"

Cvh · Nov 2, 2018

I hope I didn't fuel the blogs by creating this thread. And that any Azomite (or the like) user sees his thread getting destroyed. Sometimes it could be indeed a bad idea to ask questions on the forum here.

Anyway I just gave my plants some Lava meal (Basalt rock dust). I like to combine it with Bentonite.

'Boogieman' · Dec 2, 2019

Bump, I have run out of glacier rock dust and can get azomite locally for a decent price. I can also get greensand at the same place. I'm just curious if any new information has come to light regarding azomite and metal toxicity especially regarding aluminum. Is using humid acids (I like bioag TM-7) not advisable as it will make aluminum and other heavy metals available in a form plants can absorb?

h.h. · Dec 3, 2019

I think if it’s there, the plant will pick it up.The question is, how much and how harmful it is at minuscule amounts?
I don’t think anybody really knows.
I think it would be showing up as a long term toxicity in long term smokers. That correlation hasn’t been established.

Drewsif · Dec 3, 2019

What problems does aluminum cause? Cuz weed cures all that anyway

Growing with Cadmium for 50 year gave me itai itai disease but that's okay Cannabis is a pain killer

'Boogieman' · Dec 3, 2019

Drewsif said:
What problems does aluminum cause? Cuz weed cures all that anyway

Growing with Cadmium for 50 year gave me itai itai disease but that's okay Cannabis is a pain killer

Well the goal is to live healthy, I use recreationally and don't want to use medically. I like to smoke weed that makes me super paranoid after work, then I walk around my property talking to myself trying to get shit done.

I'm going to buy the azomite and greensand, I have no reason to believe it will be harmful after some more research. Apparently most types of clay soil naturally have a lot of aluminum.

Danger of Al+++ Solubility Aluminum Silicate Clays (Azomite, Bentonite,...)

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