Silly electrical question

Bobby Boucher · Dec 7, 2016

Is there tool that can be used to deduce the electrical schematic of an apartment (which circuits are branched together + amperage potential of each circuit) without having access to the panel?

Just a very stoned morning musing. I've got myself a nice multi-meter and a circuit breaker finder, but.. without access to the panel, I don't see how they can do me any good.

I don't rent, I'm just curious if this is possible without having to overload each circuit 1 by 1 and calculate the draw it took to overload them. That seems like a stupid thing to do, all things considered.

Seems like a very application specific tool that probably doesn't exist, but I figured I'd ask anyway. Sorry, and thanks!

EastCoast710 · Dec 7, 2016

Bobby Boucher said:
Is there tool that can be used to deduce the electrical schematic of an apartment (which circuits are branched together + amperage potential of each circuit) without having access to the panel?

Just a very stoned morning musing. I've got myself a nice multi-meter and a circuit breaker finder, but.. without access to the panel, I don't see how they can do me any good.

I don't rent, I'm just curious if this is possible without having to overload each circuit 1 by 1 and calculate the draw it took to overload them. That seems like a stupid thing to do, all things considered.

Seems like a very application specific tool that probably doesn't exist, but I figured I'd ask anyway. Sorry, and thanks!

would love to know. .as I had to go through one by one.. and turn off each breaker.. and u leave lights on.. and put 1$ store night lights in each outlet.. and figure out whats what .. my entire electrical panel wasn't labeled.. and its all 70s wiring all fucked up. I gotta have an electrician come in in order to run anymore wattage here.

dufous · Dec 7, 2016

wanting to know why you cannot access the panel?

and wouldn't someone have to access the panel anyway, if you were to overload the circuits?

having to overload each circuit 1 by 1 and calculate the draw

Bobby Boucher · Dec 7, 2016

wanting to know why you cannot access the panel?

I have access to my panel, in my home. This is a theoretical musing. I have read of others in similar situations, where there panels are kept behind lock and key. If I were ever to find myself in such a situation, it would be nice to know what is what.

and wouldn't someone have to access the panel anyway, if you were to overload the circuits?

Yeah. If there isn't a tool that does what I am describing though, this would seem to be the only solution, asides from picking the lock and accessing the panel with a circuit breaker finder, a couple cell phones, and a buddy to go around your apartment with the receptacle end of the finder.

EastCoast710 · Dec 7, 2016

that's why we try to avoid growing in apartments.. or any housing that doesn't allow for REAL POWER lol..

Bobby Boucher · Dec 7, 2016

Granted, but me and mine are all cash and no credit. I'm def not looking into apartments, but I'm also not looking into co-signers/roommates/partners, so.. I might be temporarily forced into an apartment situation. If worse comes to worst.. ya know. I've got the loochie to pay ~ a years rent in decent home up front, but a lot of people don't wanna hear that shit without verifiable income.

Phaeton · Dec 8, 2016

I used to work generator maintenance in a small (population 27) village. I had a handheld tool with a pair of half hoops I could open and close. When closed around a hot wire it would give a readout of the amps flowing in the wire.
With only fifteen houses in the village the loads would have to be rebalanced when folks would add high amp appliances. If all three phases were not close to equal problems would begin to add up.

The tool, I think it was made by Fluke, was over $100 at the time.
Access to the panel is not necessary, sometimes I would climb up the side of a house and measure from an incoming line.

OldSSSCGuy · Dec 8, 2016

You can pick up a clamp on amp meter at like Lowes/Home Depot for about $50. Might now work for this one though without tripping breakers. A circuit toner set would let you put a plug-in transponder in an outlet and then you can (at least) trace where the feed wire goes in the wall. A circuit tracer like that is at the same places for $30 or so.

You can also just open each outlet box and look to see if its wired in a series. If an outlet only has one set of wires going to it, its usually alone or at the end of a run. If you see a set of wires running maybe in one side and out the other - and you can usually follow the logical path and figure out what outlets are on a wire run. And check to see if the outlets are 15 amp or 20 amp (assuming you are talking USA 110 volt).

But without getting to the circuit breakers you will have no way to trust it, regardless. One hidden junction box above the ceiling ruins it all.

Just an opinion...

Bobby Boucher · Dec 8, 2016

A circuit toner set would let you put a plug-in transponder in an outlet and then you can (at least) trace where the feed wire goes in the wall.

Thank you! Exactly what I was thinking of.

You can also just open each outlet box and look to see if its wired in a series.

face palm. This should have been the first thing I thought of, and would have been the first thing I'd done as soon as I pulled my head out. Make a rudimentary blueprint based off of the punch-outs in the boxes and hope for the best.

And check to see if the outlets are 15 amp or 20 amp.

How can I check the max amp from the junction box?

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

MJPassion · Dec 10, 2016

Bobby Boucher said:
How can I check the max amp from the junction box?

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

Without accessing the breaker you can go by wire size.
Most homes/appts are wired w 14g wire now. Some old residences were wired w 16g wire.

I dont recall the currents they can carry but it should be easy to find on the ol net.

Jhhnn · Dec 11, 2016

The NEC has demanded at least 1 heavy duty 20A kitchen circuit for some while, so modern apts should have that. One of the slots in the wall receptacle will look like a T.

Lots of apt buildings have separate panels in each apt.

troutman · Dec 11, 2016

If you get an old extension cord and expose the wires at one end while plugging them into a large 20 pound turkey.
Plug it in the other end into an outlet and start our stopwatch. It takes about 1 minute per pound until it's well done
when you have a 15 amp fuse outlet.

So if it take less time where you are then you have more power than 15 amps per outlet. :laughing:

YetiOG · Dec 11, 2016

Bobby Boucher said:
Is there tool that can be used to deduce the electrical schematic of an apartment (which circuits are branched together + amperage potential of each circuit) without having access to the panel?

Just a very stoned morning musing. I've got myself a nice multi-meter and a circuit breaker finder, but.. without access to the panel, I don't see how they can do me any good.

I don't rent, I'm just curious if this is possible without having to overload each circuit 1 by 1 and calculate the draw it took to overload them. That seems like a stupid thing to do, all things considered.

Seems like a very application specific tool that probably doesn't exist, but I figured I'd ask anyway. Sorry, and thanks!

A voltage pen. Dont overload stuff just switch off one at a time and check and see what outlet is effected...

kava · Jan 8, 2017

electric 101

electric 101

hey the outlets with 14 gauge is a 15 amp breaker. Outlets with 12 gauge wire (thicker and stiffer) is on 20 amp breakers. the kitchen counter top outlet (2 per breaker) should be 20 amp. Fridge and clothes washer should be on breaker by them self each. Living areas (living room bedrooms and hallways not dinning rooms) should be on 14 gauge 15 amp breakers (no more than 10 outlets per breaker). that is just basic so hope it helps.

cravin morehead · Jan 8, 2017

As stated above, #12 wire is rated for 20amps. #14 is rated for 15 amps. Circuit breakers really protect the appropriate wire size from bring over loaded and burning up ��. That being said, in certain circumstances, the wires are rated for higher amps, i.e. free air. So, breakers are made to trip at 80% of the rated capacity. So in reality 20 amp breakers are supposed trip at 18 amps.

Cm

Papa-Woodie · Jan 19, 2018

Journeyman electrician.
Easiest method for finding what ccts are where is to turn on all thr lights in the house and get a plug tester. Turn all the breakers off except one. Everything that has power will be left on. Kitchens typically have 2x 20a ccts. Your nook, fridge, and outside plugs should be on their own 15a dedicated cct. Bedrooms should have 15a and all connected together.
If you want to know how much each cct is pulling, open your panel (or any plug if you don't have access) and use a clip on amp meter (most multi-meters have this) and clip around only one of the hot wires. Not both hot and neutral, as one will just cancel out the other and you'll have an inaccurate reading.

Bobby Boucher · Jan 19, 2018

Good info. The musing however was "what if you are a renting and don't have access to the panel?". Although I see now that wasn't made entirely clear by the first post.

I think the best answer was to simply open up all the boxes, gauge the.. gauges, and deduce which boxes are set up in series with a circuit toner. Then again, I'm no professional.

coldcanna · Jan 19, 2018

If you have a 240 outlet for clothes drier or electric kitchen range that wire would be big enough to set up a small subpanel with enough juice for a small grow room. Otherwise, like a few people have said - electrical ratings for amps is all a function of wire size so just pull open the outlets you need to use and see whats going on. If its a relatively new building you could prob assume each room has a feed, if its older well good luck haha

exploziv · Jan 19, 2018

To use a circuit without having acess to the circuit breaker seems stupid to m, cause sooner or later you will trip a breaker and have to reset it. Once you find what that circuit can take you need to install another breaker to basically be able to reset it without having to call the person that has access to the main breaker for that circuit. Basically, there's little chance of installing a big grow without having access to the main panel at least once. Unless you keep the power consumption at a safe level, under the recommended load for sockets in your country. That's 16Amps in Europe for 230V. Safe continous load would be 80% of that, so under 13A per socket, assuming there is nothing else on the same circuit that is drawing power. If there is, you would need to find a different socket on other circuit or substract the existing load from the recommended continous load.
I don't know what breakers are used on sockets in other places other that EU. Probably in the 10 to 20A as well.

Bobby Boucher · Jan 19, 2018

I'm talking 2x600w in lighting and 150w in 120 appliances split evenly between 2 circuits, er smaller. I wouldn't want to blow up a spot that wasn't mine with anything more than a light er two to begin with.

I more wanted to know wtf a circuit toner was even called. I figured there must be a tool for this application, but could not figure out for the life of me what it was called. fp.

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