any kiss users have exp. with veg+bloom

YosemiteSam said:

Its just the hardness and alkalinity of cyat's water causing a little bit of gypsum to fall out...not actually a big deal.

I feel like an asshole now...Chris is a good guy.

For anyone using store bought nutes this one is the one I would use...end of story.

Click to expand...

whats up Sam ? been reading the veg bloom thread and respect your knowledge alot on nutes, i know you make your own but i dont and really want to find a good all around nute . i dont buy additives and use r o water, do you really think it is a good one ?

TheBioMaster said:

Huh? I think you got some SERIOUS issues if you think these people work for V+B somehow....what a foolish thing to say. I think you need to seriously get over yourself....

I am amazed when ever I see such dumbass statements.......actors huh? ROFL!!

Nobody is trying to "fool" you .....try the product with a FREE sample to see if you like it....

How exactly do you fool a person like that??

What a dummy.....

The reason why I full court press this product is VERY SIMPLE and I am sure even YOU can understand this......I am tired of the marketing BS products like from Advanced Nutrients that cost a fortune and ROB money from good people! I do not like that you see!!

What other nutrient company do you know of that will accept a sample of your source water, analyze it, and then custom formulate the nutrient to YOUR water specs??? HUH??? You will be a long while looking for another nutrient company that will do this for you.

I want people to know you do not have to buy these BS products like from AN especially and spend all your hard earned cash!! IT IS TOTAL BS!!!

When I come across a person like Chris at Hydroponic-Research and a product like V+B I think it is important to let people know about the other options out there. And how there are REAL great working products with NO BS gimmick at all!

It really is a shame that you think this is some ploy.....maybe medical MJ is not the medicine for you....you seem to be suffering from a bad case of paranoia.....think the world is out to get you??? GET HELP!!

Chris is probably the most honest and knowledgeable person I have ever had the pleasure to know or work with......the guy is 100% a straight shooter! You will find very few people in this industry like Chris and the products he has been developing since 1990.

Thats over 12 years ago Cyat in case you have trouble with the math....

Some people are VERY proud of there ignorance I guess....

Click to expand...

i can see how Cyat would think what he does, im thinking the same as him. but i really dont give a damn if your are or not, just getting the samples first and see what it does, but to be honest i smell barn yard. STRONG

I would be split between this and CNS17 Grow (for the entire grow....no boosters). I like the amount of Ca in this one but I like the NPK of the Botanicare product.

would be split between this and CNS17 Grow (for the entire grow....no boosters). I like the amount of Ca in this one but I like the NPK of the Botanicare product.

Click to expand...

I'm right there with ya on this Sam .... I'm using the veg & bloom & my buddy is using the CNS17 & you really can't tell much difference in our gardens . my mixing is a little easier than his 3 bottle , but the health & overall wellness of the plants are the same .

All someone has to do is look at a persons post history. Should be pretty obvious who's who.

And I'm NOT talking about 'BioMaster...

unbiased opinion

unbiased opinion

Veg+bloom works well. Not very cheap to run. Seems to be almost as expensive to use as a hydro lineup that costs top $$ per gallon. conni, heavy16, canna,etc.

I thought veg + bloom seemed good to test out with the advertised .75tsp per gallon but I am finding I need to use more. Does mix up clean with my r.o water.

cns17 is more cost effective. Costs about 3x as much as cns17.

about 28.00 for 1lb of veg+bloom.
0ppm r/o water adding 5.5 grams per gallon puts me at little over 1.0ec. 550ppm. At that rate only getting 82 gallons of solution out of a pound. Not the 150 gallons they advertise.
34cents per gallon of solution. (what you feed to your plants)

heavy 16 bud @ 15 ml per gallon 70.00 per gallon = 140.00
3785ml per gallon
252 gallons of solution @ 15 per gallon
55 cents per gallon.(what you feed to your plants)

one gallon cns17 @ $30.00.
15ml per gallon
3785ml per gallon
252 gallons of solution @ 15 per gallon
11 cents per gallon.(what you feed to your plants)

So not as cheap when comparing base nutes. I do not need to use any additives with cns17. I do use agsil16h but the cost is still minimal. Like to figure out how to blend my own salts with a similar ratio and hopefully make something more cost effective.

imho. Some of the posters do promote other products. Some people are given product and in return are required to post and share about the product. Maybe it was another brand at one time and now it is veg+bloom.
Shilling a product and not disclosing it happens all the time. Right thing to do is to disclose you were given the product or if you paid full price for it. or close it it...

kushie said:

Veg+bloom works well. Not very cheap to run. Seems to be almost as expensive to use as a hydro lineup that costs top $$ per gallon. conni, heavy16, canna,etc.

Click to expand...

Couple of things..... I don't know where you are buying it, but a pound of V+B is $19.95 direct from HR. In looking at the analysis for Heavy 16 & CNS17, they both only carry a fraction of the Ca & Mg that are in the V+B RO formula. As I said in the above post, they wouldn't work in my water without supplementing CalMag heavily, which drives the price up very quickly.

I was given the sample that is available to everyone, and paid full price for the nutrients after that.

I picked up a 25lb from my local shop for $370(i got hooked up I guess?). I'm paying a little less than 15 bucks a pound when I buy in bulk . even if a pound only makes 86 gallons (which I'm 99% positive it makes more) thats still only .17 cents a gallon,no Calmag, silica, aminos, blah blah. If I feed the dairy queen I'm growing at 1.4 from day 1 to day 50 I'm paying a lot less then your math comes out to bro. I've tried the other routes, I even tried the DIY shit, it doesn't get better and it only gets more complicated. Take a deep breath and get over the conspiracy. it's easier than you thought, it saves you money, it produces fire, and you are pissed??? wtf

rives said:

Couple of things..... I don't know where you are buying it, but a pound of V+B is $19.95 direct from HR. In looking at the analysis for Heavy 16 & CNS17, they both only carry a fraction of the Ca & Mg that are in the V+B RO formula. As I said in the above post, they wouldn't work in my water without supplementing CalMag heavily, which drives the price up very quickly.

I was given the sample that is available to everyone, and paid full price for the nutrients after that.

Click to expand...

Purchased Direct from HR. They charged me 28.70 including shipping + tax. That is close enough to a gallon of cns17 but only lasts a fraction of the time. Also consider that may be the highest price paid unless bulk.

I am going off price in hand. other products have included total price at hydro store including tax. cal/mg is not needed with the cns17 in my experience. Same goes for the veg+bloom thus far.

Only using cns17 as a comparison since it works well with silica and no cal/mg is needed with r/o water. not many nutes like that.

kushie said:

Only using cns17 as a comparison since it works well with silica and no cal/mg is needed with r/o water. not many nutes like that.

Click to expand...

Which one of the CNS17 products are you referring to? I've never used it, but when I searched for it all of the varieties that I checked had pretty low Ca/Mg. I don't use RO, but my tap is about as close to it as you can get with 1.1 ppm of Mg & 4.4 Ca. The lack of needing to supplement the CaMg was the principal reason I was drawn to V+B.

netprophet said:

I picked up a 25lb from my local shop for $370(i got hooked up I guess?). I'm paying a little less than 15 bucks a pound when I buy in bulk . even if a pound only makes 86 gallons (which I'm 99% positive it makes more) thats still only .17 cents a gallon,no Calmag, silica, aminos, blah blah. If I feed the dairy queen I'm growing at 1.4 from day 1 to day 50 I'm paying a lot less then your math comes out to bro. I've tried the other routes, I even tried the DIY shit, it doesn't get better and it only gets more complicated. Take a deep breath and get over the conspiracy. it's easier than you thought, it saves you money, it produces fire, and you are pissed??? wtf

Click to expand...

your hilarious, you sound pissed off with the wtf and crying. I only stated my point of view since I have not finished a run with veg+bloom yet.
no I am not pissed. Don't know why you would think that. Did not say anything negative or any WTf did I?
I weighed it out and calculated it out. Weigh it out you will see 100% not 99%.
Sounds like you are getting less per pound since you are running a higher ec. My math could be off but I put it all out there so..

lots of factors in place and not just nutes are going to do it for "fire" kid...

rives said:

Which one of the CNS17 products are you referring to? I've never used it, but when I searched for it all of the varieties that I checked had pretty low Ca/Mg. I don't use RO, but my tap is about as close to it as you can get with 1.1 ppm of Mg & 4.4 Ca. The lack of needing to supplement the CaMg was the principal reason I was drawn to V+B.

Click to expand...

Going off the cns17 for coco and soil. They make a grow, bloom and ripe. I was initially drawn to cns17 since I would not need to add back cal/mg to my r/o water to have enough cal/mg for coco coir therefore saving some $$. same goes for veg+ bloom so far.
all positive experiences so far.

kushie said:

Going off the cns17 for coco and soil. They make a grow, bloom and ripe. I was initially drawn to cns17 since I would not need to add back cal/mg to my r/o water to have enough cal/mg for coco coir therefore saving some $$. same goes for veg+ bloom so far.
all positive experiences so far.

Click to expand...

I just plugged everything into my nutrient calculator, and to get the CNS17 to approximate the overall ppm achieved with 5 grams/gln of V+B it requires 30ml/gln of the CNS17 (the instructions call for 10ml per liter). Using your cost figures, a 20 gallon reservoir would cost $6.20 with V+B and $4.80 with CNS17. I don't know where you got your dosage levels for the CNS17, but it looks pretty weak.

Thank you elvme2! Very much appreciated sir.

I know I may sound like a snake oil agent at times, but I assure everyone here I have no vested interest in ANY of these products at all. I do not sell any nutrients or additives and I have no deal with anyone...no kickbacks....no nothing......the sole purpose to any of my post is to help educate and provide accurate data about the product, good or BAD. If its crap, I will be the FIRST you hear scream......

I like to think of us as a type of "Consumers Guide" if you will, but only for Horticulture. If I smell a fish.....

If you guys want things to get better, then you have to do something, they will not just get better magically because you "hope" they do.....and when a product comes along that is exceptional, you need to let people know about it.........

When you guys are calculating cost, you need to make sure you COUNT everything, meaning the cost of cal/mag (would not need with V+B) and the cost of root inoculates (would not need with V+B), the cost of a Drip Clean product is not needed with V+B, then lets not forget the flowering boosters and how much they cost......now lets add the cost of enzyme products as well as a amino product (price the cost of amino treatment by House & Garden...I double DARE you.....LOL!!

Most all nutrient products need cal/mag additives, CNS17 to be fair in most cases will not need cal/mag but you get a really hungry lady in the house and CNS17 will fall short in the cal/mag department.....

Oh ya lets not forget the price of a Fulvic additive.....and for the record, you could NOT even buy a equal fulvic as V+B carries, even if you wanted too....The fulvic isolate in V+B has a lower molecular structure/weight than ANY other on the market......making it the most bio-active fulvic available or plant available fulvic....Fulvic additives make a HUGE difference in final outcome......they are valuable in many ways and will improve upon the availability of nutrients greatly....

Then there are all the growth stimulator and vitamins that V+B carries a LARGE array of.....not in CNS17....and the FEW things that you do find in both products, if you look close you will see that other nutrients brands like CNS17 may have them, but not in the right amounts and usually not from the right source, i.e. - Amoniacal nitrogen

Now first off to be fare, CNS17 is nowhere near as complete as V+B. It is not as clean either, when tested in a UC system it caused problems for example and was a ROYAL pain in the ass to deal with in general. CNS17 does not work well in ALL garden types....V+B does!

CNS17 does not make a hard water formula or a RO formula for that matter......

CNS17 (Botanicare) will NOT accept a sample of your source water, then analysis it, and then adjust there CNS17 formula ESPECIALLY FOR YOU!!!! Read that line a couple times folks, make SURE it sinks in to the noodle.....

CNS17 last I checked does NOT offer a ammonia free formula at ALL!

I could go on as there is MUCH more differences that are in V+B favor.......

Let us also think about time....time is usually very important to people that are smart enough to realize that time is EVERYTHING really!!

Hard to put a price on that as well.......

Now do you honestly think that CNS17 should even be compared to V+B??? Not in my book.....apples and oranges people....

And I should add that if you ran a side by side with CNS17 and V+B, and your V+B side did not blow the doors off your CNS17 side, they you simply did something wrong or there was some condition or value out of range, plain and simple.....no way in hell CNS17 will perform as well as V+B, it just does not contain many things that are found in V+B...no way, no how.......

I should also add that I think Botanicare is a good company that makes great products. There Pure Blend Pro line has been in many elite gardens over the years and has withstood the test of time......it is legendary practically....but honestly CNS17 is a good product, but not a great product. There are just to many "scenarios" if you will that will not work well with CNS17...Botanicare has much better products that CNS17, even the 3 part Tri-Flex line will out perform CNS17 and has does so in previous testing.

The Aquashield product is one of the BEST on the market in its class PERIOD for a hydro application like DWC or RDWC...

Clearex is a AWESOME and unmatched product that every Gardner should be using in DWC or RDWC at the last week of flushing.....this stuff when applied correctly, most get it wrong however, but when you use it the right way it will GREATLY improve upon the final product.

Im sure I am forgetting some products.....but you get the idea I hope.

rives said:

I just plugged everything into my nutrient calculator, and to get the CNS17 to approximate the overall ppm achieved with 5 grams/gln of V+B it requires 30ml/gln of the CNS17 (the instructions call for 10ml per liter). Using your cost figures, a 20 gallon reservoir would cost $6.20 with V+B and $4.80 with CNS17. I don't know where you got your dosage levels for the CNS17, but it looks pretty weak.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what would be considered "unhelpful" about a straight cost analysis, but it would contribute more to the discussion if whoever marked the above unhelpful also posted what it was that was unhelpful about. If there is an error there, please point it out.

I know dansbuds goes my PPM reading.... does anybody else? I'm currently running my veg girls around 450PPM and there under T5's.... I was up towards 525 and they started getting a little burned so I had to cut down.

TheBioMaster said:

CNS17 last I checked does NOT offer a ammonia free formula at ALL!

Click to expand...

I would be willing to bet you that Veg + Bloom does not either. The CaNO3 is use is Yara Liva and it contains like 7.5% NH4. If you know of a CaNO3 that does not I would love to hear about it.

i vegged under 400w mh and was hitting right about 450ppm towards the later end of things. Dtw and coco. Feeding about 2x per day