"Stable Shatter" (Open Blasting)

Medicine Man1 · Jan 31, 2015

Payaso said:
Howdy all... moderators are not necessarily BHO experts... in fact, I dislike the stuff so much I don't research it or pretend to be knowledgeable...

I am TOLERANT however (I can hear the chuckles and groans) and the only thing I care about is civilized discussion of techniques and the spreading of knowledge.

One thing I find that the Concentrates section has in common with the Organics section is the amazing strength of will and concentrated egos behind statements made by the various 'experts.'

Seems every one is an expert, and I am glad to see that... cause after seeing a neighbor's house reduced to ruins by BHO experimentation I have come to the conclusion that smoking God's gift in its natural form is best for me... BUDS are the BEST.

But that's just my opinion... so don't go jumping all up and down and getting cranky 'cause I don't share your passion. I feel strongly enough about personal liberty and pursuit of happiness that if you do it safely, there is no reason for alarm.

My hats off to you sir. :tiphat:

I woud never consider myself an expert, artist, I dont have a "lab" I simply 'experiment. Just like in science class, I have the resourses I'm able to use to experiemt to the best of my knowledge. I hate wax myself, but, I would love to make the safest, cleanest for the people that do want/need. But, Gods flower, heated to perfection in a nice natural hemp leaf.. doesn't get any better than that and cant agree more!. Cheers Payaso! :tiphat:

Medicine Man1 · Jan 31, 2015

@Dybert Talk to Josh over at Oil Slick, he's pretty much an expert and has this to say:

I am sure you know, silicone swells in the presence on non-polar solvents. Hexane is actually used as a “swelling agent” for silicone tubing to allow for an easier connection.
The swelling effect is the primary reason why silicone makes a poor compatibility choice when selecting a material to come into prolonged direct contact with non-polars.
As you must also be aware, chemical contamination from “extractables” in silicone materials, (in a procedure such as you are describing) is due almost entirely to the physical release of low molecular weight siloxanes, and other impurities from the manufacturing process.
This is why Tygon 3350, or SaniTech-Ultra, are made with platinum cured silicone rather than the more common peroxide cured variety. This is also why We use platinum catalyzed USP6 silicone in our pads. (rather than peroxide/food grade).
As far as I am aware, we are the ONLY company doing this. The cost of material for a simple “baking mat” would be prohibitive in that industry.
For the record (sometime I feel like a broken record)We do not sell the Pad to spray directly onto. Many (many) folks do, and when we realized it (july of 2012), we switched the silicone we use as our raw material as aprophylactic measure.
We also removed the Logo from our pads, because we feared that immersion in non-polar solvent could act to weaken the bond between that thin layer of logo silicone, and the pad beneath. As concerned as we were about the logo....i cringe when I see folks spraying into parchment.
The matrix of silicone in common parchment paper (non-Quilon / silicone coated) is extremely fragile compared to a pad. I imagine the violence of swelling and shrinking on that scale would be tenfold compared to the effect that prompted our own change of material.
The physical wear of swelling/shrinking/swelling/shrinking along with the various stresses inflicted by the innovative public (razor blades, torches etc...) make any sort of performance warranty unmanageable.
So we make em as pure as it gets, and when people ask us....we tell em that if they insist on using them this way, to please discard them if they notice any physical degradation.
I would refrain from cutting the pad to perform your testing, as this will expose the inner weave. Once cut or torn, the physical consequences of swelling could lead to damage along the exposed area.
Let me know where to send it, and I will get a Pad out to you today. Always happy to hear your thoughts. I redacted about 2 pages of hyper technical diatribe from this email.... because I figured you have likely done your own research regarding Pt cured silicone, and the various plasticizers that are used in food grade silicone. This is understandably a topic quite close to my heart; and I will be vary happy to discuss at length should you have specific questions (or non-specific musings?).
Also, should you require it, you have my explicit permission to share anything we discuss with whichever forums you are involved in.
Regards,
Joshua

Medicine Man1 · Jan 31, 2015

and now, I know he's only talking about silicone, but really you have to understand polar and non-polar solvents and that's why PTFE is really the safest "known" things to use. Not telling you, you can't, nor did i ever bash you in any way? I just said its a 'no-no.'

BrainChild · Jan 31, 2015

Medicine said:
I want to thank you for that info. I mean if evap occurs at 31F you dont think 97F is reasonable @30+ hours? I'm not saying your wrong, but I would like to know more detail on what time/temps would be needed then for the end result to be > 0.0001 ppm. As im sure we ALL want the cleanest, safest solution for our bodies.

It is certainly a reasonable assumption to think purging@97°F for 30hrs+ would be adequate but the problem is the canned butane isn't just butane. It contains a mixed blend of gases ie butane, propane, isobutane and then the longer chain alkanes like pentane and isopentane. If you look those up, pentane boils at around 98°F. When wrapped up inside a matrix of cannabis oil its becomes even harder to purge efficiently at low temps..

When this newer residual solvent screen 1st popped up a lot of people including cup winning oil makers at the secret cup got quite the shock that their oil had 1000ppm+ residual solvents. Most of the high numbers are for pentane and isopentane, people were processing at too low a temperature for it to readily escape. Like 95F for a day or 2...not good enough for pentane.

Open blasters will have to accept that some residuals will be in their oil IMO, and certainly a higher temp and probably longer purge times needed to get those higher boiling point residuals down. I'd recommend trying a higher temp purge of around 105-115, flipping the slab when the reaction slows.

The easy answer is to get a closed loop so you can distill your solvent and not have the pentane and mystery oil crap in there to begin with. If you don't have it in your solvent then it won't be in your oil. That way you can utilize the low n slow purge to preserve all those terps, and still have an efficient and adequate purge. All the people posting up <10ppm on all the 9 solvents are using distilled solvent, not canned butane.

You probably inhale way worse sitting in 5 mins of traffic then taking a dab of some open blasted oil, but if you really want the cleanest solution get on the CLS train ;-)

dank.frank · Jan 31, 2015

BlazeOneUp is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there - he made a statement, with the predication the audience reading weren't idiots...

He's not been around and posting for quiet some time - I for one am absolutely thrilled to see him logging on and sharing again.

dank.Frank

Gray Wolf · Jan 31, 2015

A couple things to note.

It is easier to remove the pentane and isopentane out of the butane before extraction than out of the oil afterwards, so proper attention to temperatures and pressures during distillation is important.

Vacuuming the concentrate long enough to remove the pentane afterwards, is at the cost of monoterpenes.

In an effort to preserve terpenes, many don't heat their oil hot enough, to lower the surface tension enough, for the solvent bubbles to break free.

Butane molecules at 46 degrees Kelvin above its 273K boiling point, are energetically charging around running into the walls, bottom, and surface of the puddle. If they hit the surface with enough force to exceed the surface tension they escape as bubbles.

When a puddle first starts bubbling, it is the molecules that hit the surface close to 90 degrees that escape, but as the puddle heats up and the surface tension falls with heating, molecules hitting the surface at more oblique angles also escape.

Under -29.5F Hg vacuum, our experiments suggest that temperature for most strains lies between about 110F and 115F.

While aromatic, the monoterpenes on the other hand, are well below their boiling point, so are casting off molecules at a much reduced rate.

We've found that if you remove the solvent at the minimum temperature that the solvent bubbles freely break free under vacuum, that we retain more terpenes than continuing to process it at a lower temperature for longer.

Chonkski · Feb 1, 2015

Gray Wolf said:
Butane molecules at 46 degrees Kelvin above its 273K boiling point, are energetically charging around running into the walls, bottom, and surface of the puddle. If they hit the surface with enough force to exceed the surface tension they escape as bubbles.

When a puddle first starts bubbling, it is the molecules that hit the surface close to 90 degrees that escape, but as the puddle heats up and the surface tension falls with heating, molecules hitting the surface at more oblique angles also escape.
.

Thank you GW, for this amazing explanation on a molecular level. This makes things a bit more clear

blazeoneup · Feb 2, 2015

flatslabs said:
The majority of parchment paper has a silicone coating, including the "all natural unbleached ones", and silicone is not compatible with butane.

In your original post you certainly did not specify what type of paper you are using to blast on, and this is an open blasting thread so extra scrutiny must be taken for the audience who will read it, and the general consensus in this forum is do not blast onto parchment paper for the reason above. If you have a type of paper that is silicone free, please share it with us as I am sure some here would be interested in it.

Your right but I still posted on it, The reason I asked can you provide proof and evidence is so I can shoot it down. Once he would have popped back in and brought the silicon argument I would explained how all parchments not created equal and not all parchment has been bleached or coated with silicone. I find it mind numbing people have such a hard time finding unbleached silicone free parchment. Whole health food stores would never supply products with plastic lol.

I am also not a moderator of the concentrates. But I must state this because some felt the need to insult my intelligence. If you just spew what you read and do no research of your own then don't compare and say things like this is our mods lol because you obviously have no clue who I am or what I know. I learn through real research and real life experimentation I scrutinize everything I do because my ultimate goal is to provide the best quality product that I can. My focus has always been quality never anything less.

Lastly I leave you with a link to the parchment paper you should probably order and give a try. Then maybe you will understand the heart of my post and start shaving down your own purge time. Rather then try to insult me or act as if you know what I do not. Forgive my ignorance though I have been MIA for a while and I keep forgetting you have to be very detailed otherwise some noob could end up in serious situation.

http://www.zabars.com/beyond-gourmet-unbleached-parchment-paper/B289001.html

blazeoneup · Feb 2, 2015

Chonkski said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see more of your guys' presence. I am just severely suprised in the lack of knowledge on the subject. When this is one of the mecha's of information. Here we have a moderator asking for proof and resource, when its touted through these pages. No offense to blazeoneup, but I personally feel that we deserve a little more credit over here in concentrates. I also feel the moderators have a lot of learning to do, because concentrates are the true form of administering medical treatments, I can't agree with "buds are the best" when it comes to things like Severe Epilepsy in children 10 years and younger. Who have made miracle stories out of using cannabinoid treatments. And that is just one example to start with.

Please don't take me as an asshole, hater, Or a troll. I am just very passionate when it comes to this type of knowledge.

I agree with your point on not agreeing with "buds are best" when it comes to severe medical illness and conditions. It is quite clear that concentrates do a much better job for people suffering from such conditions. Not to mention lung cancer patients need concentrates not buds they have to smoke. So there is a place and need for all forms of cannabis IMO.

There is nothing wrong about being passionate about what you do its a good quality and will lead you to better methods and product.

I have been missing in action on here for some time do to unexpected life issues. I've been busy, so I haven't caught up to the concentrates forum and didn't know that it is widely considered a no no to blast on parchment. I'm kinda shocked more people haven't found alternative parchments that are bleach/chlorine/silicone free. It's widely available thanks to all the health food nuts that won't use anything non-organic.

So when I originally posted this I kinda expected people would give me benefit of the doubt and not assume I am using silicone coated parchment. But it appears not many know there is such a parchment on the market. Either way atleast this will open some eyes as to options available.

I have done several test and my conclusion is 105f best temp for me, Also thin for the win, I don't scrape poor or handle the oil at all. No touching...

If you do large runs. It's best to do several smaller runs using Silicone Free unbleached parchment. You can do it big but the way to go here is make a huge parchment bowl, do the extraction and keep on lv surface for the initial evap. This will spread it thin as it can be. The key is to make it almost flat while still liquid. That way it doesn't get so thick. The thicker the slab the longer it will take to get optimal purge. I also believe the longer you have to keep it in the oven the less terps you will have in the long haul. For me speed has become the mark of quality. It takes a quicker purge to produce the most flavorful shatter, and the best way to do that is how I described above.

You spread it over large surface area during evap so its as thin as it can be, never scrape or poor, If you have to cut it down after evap in several sheets that can fit in the oven. This way you can do the initial 1 hr vac before forming the paddy. I promise this will not only shave down your overall purge time but it will end with a more flavorful product from my experience.

I challenge all of you to test this method out and send in your end product for lab analysis and post up your results. Compare it to another batch done using your usual pyrex dish and poor method. Post back how much purge time you were able to shave down, also post up the lab results and tell me what you think. My guess is your not only gonna shave down your purge time your gonna have a more flavorful and smelly product, that also test cleaner then thicker slab purged longer.

One final note, after several experiments, Smaller tubes equal higher pressures higher pressure has seemed to equate to higher returns. Thinner extraction tubes give much higher pressure blast and for me that turns into higher yield.

youareaniceguy · Feb 2, 2015

Post your brand. I'm almost certain I know what brands you'd be using and they are not safe and not better than glass. You can have custom Pyrex dishes made at a size that is larger than commercially available.

blazeoneup · Feb 2, 2015

youareaniceguy said:
Post your brand. I'm almost certain I know what brands you'd be using and they are not safe and not better than glass. You can have custom Pyrex dishes made at a size that is larger than commercially available.

Problem with custom pyrex is you would need a custom oven or one large enough to hold the custom pyrex. Or you would still end up transfering to parchment at some point. If i have to transfer I'd rather just do it right on parchment, Look at my previous post do you research on the brand and if its not safe please give me some details and let me know what chemical I need to be looking for in my lab results that would prove its unsafe.

I'm not here to spread bullshit and create and share unsafe products and techniques. So if you know something I don't about the brand of parchment above then please by all means bring it to my attention.

The thing is if you poor, transfer or don't spread thin enough while its still liquid you won't get the end result I am speaking of. It has to be super thin while liquid this will also speed up the evap process. But more importantly is when it goes into the oven, If its thick your already slowing down the process and end product will suffer because of it. The only way you could get a poored slab thin enough to achieve the results I am speaking of is if you turned the temp of the oven up so high it would ruin the product.

105f is not gonna liquify thick oil enough to thin it out enough to achieve the results I speak of. Infact 115f wouldn't even be hot enough IMO. You have to do it during the blast or else you would need to heat it way to hot to spread it as thin as I am speaking. Brand is Beyond Gourmet Unbleached Parchment Paper.

With parchment you can make the bowl large enough to spread it thin enough no matter how big your extraction is, then once its evap and ready for oven you can slice it into sizes that will fit into the oven. Far as what I know, the only issues with parchments are bleaches/chlorines used to strip the color and make it white, and silicone coating. The brand I use has no bleaches no chlorines and no silicone so what is it that would be an issue and make it less safe then pyrex?

Gray Wolf · Feb 2, 2015

Thanks for sharing the organic parchment paper link brother B!

I note some terms are also getting lumped together in conversation, so thought I would interject some factoids.

Silicon is the element Si, occurring naturally in nature, with diamond centered cubic structure, and an atomic number of 14. It has a melting point of 1687K/1414C/2577F. Commonly known as glass.

Silicone is a man-made alternating Silicon/oxygen chain backbone, to which other things can be attached.

Such as to make silicone spray, for instance.

The silicone spray MSDS offered by DuPont, is as follows:

http://www.teledyne-ai.com/pdf/msds_lubricatingoil.pdf

As you can see from the MSDS, it is pretty inert and such a large molecule that it can’t pass through cell walls, so mostly is just excreted.

One note in the MSDS that should be of concern for those of using silicone coated parchment paper, is the admonition that, some is transferred to the extracts, and:

When heated to temperatures above 150 degrees C in the presence of air, product can
form formaldehyde vapors. Formaldehyde is a potential cancer hazard, a known skin and
respiratory sensitizer, and an irritant to the eyes, nose, throat, skin, and digestive system.
Safe handling conditions may be maintained by keeping vapor concentrations within the
OSHA Permissible Exposure Limit for formaldehyde.

Therefore those using the extract in an application that exceeds 150C/302F, should ostensibly have some concerned with its presence.

Silicone rubber has silicone in it, but also contains polymers, so as to create a rubbery elastomer. It is not the same as silicone.

It comes in industrial grades, as well as platinum grades suitable for food products.

The concern with silicone rubber and butane, is that it readily absorbs butane, and when it desorbs the butane, what may be leached along with it, is an unknown.

The concern in an industrial application, is what it does to the properties. For instance Cole Palmer rates it as a D in butane application, due to both the swelling and for that reason, though it is interesting to note that most propane demand regulators for internal combustion engines, have silicone rubber diaphragms, so strength doesn’t seem to be an issue.

I’ve seen no lab reports identifying the evil spirits that may be present, but don’t know that they were specifically looking for that either, and if they had found them, that they were certifiably evil.

There is also a difference between leached constituents, and fine silicone rubber shavings from mechanically scraping the mat.

We no longer open blast, and don’t line our stainless pots, but have had better luck using PTFE film for its non-stick properties, than silicone rubber, in our vacuum finishing operations.

flatslabs · Feb 2, 2015

Your right but I still posted on it, The reason I asked can you provide proof and evidence is so I can shoot it down. Once he would have popped back in and brought the silicon argument I would explained how all parchments not created equal and not all parchment has been bleached or coated with silicone. I find it mind numbing people have such a hard time finding unbleached silicone free parchment. Whole health food stores would never supply products with plastic lol.

blazeoneup said:
Lastly I leave you with a link to the parchment paper you should probably order and give a try. Then maybe you will understand the heart of my post and start shaving down your own purge time. Rather then try to insult me or act as if you know what I do not. Forgive my ignorance though I have been MIA for a while and I keep forgetting you have to be very detailed otherwise some noob could end up in serious situation.

http://www.zabars.com/beyond-gourmet-unbleached-parchment-paper/B289001.html

http://www.beyondgourmetcookingandbaking.com/products.html

Parchment Paper
- 71 square foot roll (65.6 ft. x 13 in.)
- Made from 100% unbleached, totally chlorine free paper
- Silicone-coated; Quilon-free
- Eliminates need to grease baking pans and sheets
- Oven-safe up to 450° F
- Microwave safe
- Recyclable packaging made from 100% recycled materials
- Green Seal Certified
- Certified for Kosher Food Processing

As I mentioned in my original post, most of the natural unbleached parchments are still silicone coated. The only brand I haven't got a firm answer on is the Regency brand. It seems like you are attacking my post and left me half quoted, I was just asking you to share with us the brand you were using so others could benefit, but you need to go to the manufacturer about the information that is really on the product, not a retail store. Health food stores are littered with unregulated supplements, so to say they wouldn't sell something unsafe is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

blazeoneup · Feb 2, 2015

flatslabs said:
http://www.beyondgourmetcookingandbaking.com/products.html

Parchment Paper
- 71 square foot roll (65.6 ft. x 13 in.)
- Made from 100% unbleached, totally chlorine free paper
- Silicone-coated; Quilon-free
- Eliminates need to grease baking pans and sheets
- Oven-safe up to 450° F
- Microwave safe
- Recyclable packaging made from 100% recycled materials
- Green Seal Certified
- Certified for Kosher Food Processing

As I mentioned in my original post, most of the natural unbleached parchments are still silicone coated. The only brand I haven't got a firm answer on is the Regency brand. It seems like you are attacking my post and left me half quoted, I was just asking you to share with us the brand you were using so others could benefit, but you need to go to the manufacturer about the information that is really on the product, not a retail store. Health food stores are littered with unregulated supplements, so to say they wouldn't sell something unsafe is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

Not attacking at all just asking for something showing which you've done there. I'm gonna upload some results from lab analysis from some of the test to show the results from what I have done.

youareaniceguy · Feb 2, 2015

That brand does in fact use silicone as flatslabs has linked to. The other problem is that even if it wasn't silicone coated , you have the products of processing the parchment paper to worry about.

Medicine Man1 · Feb 5, 2015

great post @blazeoneup , i blasted onto pyrex, then poured onto a oilslick ptfe sheet. "http://oilslickpad.com/products/slick-sheet/" also, we use a smaller tube 60g / 50 micron screen //

@gray_wolf proven yourself amazing yet again. Thank you for the precise information! would like to discuss more about less time / and more about if you agree disagree with @blazeoneup about the shorter time, thinner spread making a difference.

Rotel · Feb 5, 2015

In my opinion, we're long past debating the "blast on parchment" tech. It's ill advised and thus outdated.

zz-california · Nov 8, 2015

man the way you describe the topic your good tips you have given me good ideas thank you

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"Stable Shatter" (Open Blasting)

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