Experiences with MBFerts stretch stopper (Chlormequat Chloride?)

Hey all, I'm about to try this stuff out since I hate phosphoload and how it can affect quality, let alone the potential dangers etc.

You foliar it the first week of bloom when you want stretch to stop. It's used on wheat crops in the US.

I'd very much appreciate any experience anyone has with it. Specifically:

What day 12/12 did you use it?
How quickly did it stop/slow down stretch?
How much stretch did you see after using it?
Did it cause any issues at all?

I'd prefer if we left arguments about weather or not this product is safe for human consumption, out of this thread (unless you nearly died after smoking bud grown from plants treated with chlormequat chloride.) Thank you!

It's used on wheat crops in the US.

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You do understand these wheat crops that it is allowed to be used on are seed crops, correct?

That is crops grown to have their seed harvested and processed for replanting. The US EPA does not allow its use on crops intended for food(human) or feed(animal) use.

whatthe215 said:

Hey all, I'm about to try this stuff out since I hate phosphoload and how it can affect quality, let alone the potential dangers etc.

You foliar it the first week of bloom when you want stretch to stop. It's used on wheat crops in the US.

I'd very much appreciate any experience anyone has with it. Specifically:

What day 12/12 did you use it?
How quickly did it stop/slow down stretch?
How much stretch did you see after using it?
Did it cause any issues at all?

I'd prefer if we left arguments about weather or not this product is safe for human consumption, out of this thread (unless you nearly died after smoking bud grown from plants treated with chlormequat chloride.) Thank you!

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Why would you like to leave out arguments as to whether it is safe for human consumption? Is it convenient for you to live in denial at the expense of med consumers? Are you growing medical marijuana (I stress medical) or are you growing chem drugs that will be sold on the streets?

CC is a systemic chemical PGR with extremely long withholding periods - and yes some years ago in Australia when a manufacturer botched a batch of their poisons rumours were rife of people being hospitalized as a result of smoking CC laced cannabis. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Put simply only unethical growers who are driven by greed and fundamentally are too lazy to concentrate on getting their environment at optimum use chem PGRs.

Educate the dude instead of biting his head off....on the MBferts website they advertise there Stretch Stopper as as safer alternative to Phoshoload or Bush Master, this is from there site

"Stretch Stopper is a Safer alternative to Bushmaster, Phosphoload, and Flower Dragon. Due to its main Ingredient:*Chlormequat Chloride. Chlormequat Chloride*is the same ingredient used in wheat/cereal production, and that’s obviously FDA approved for human consumption"

Thats pretty misleading if its a dangerous as glow claims. Cant there be a safe to use gibb blocker thats not going to leave poisonous residues in your plant? Maybe Ethephon ? Ive never used it for stretch but Its the PGR thats in Dutch Masters Reverse and Optic Foliars Switch. I know some people use it to reduce stretch and its approved for use on food crops, heres a link to a article where there using it under the brand name Florel using it at different ppms to slow vertical growth.

http://www.gpnmag.com/ethephon-drenches-bedding-plants

BubbaBear said:

Educate the dude instead of biting his head off....on the MBferts website they advertise there Stretch Stopper as as safer alternative to Phoshoload or Bush Master, this is from there site

"Stretch Stopper is a Safer alternative to Bushmaster, Phosphoload, and Flower Dragon. Due to its main Ingredient:*Chlormequat Chloride. Chlormequat Chloride*is the same ingredient used in wheat/cereal production, and that’s obviously FDA approved for human consumption"

Thats pretty misleading if its a dangerous as glow claims. Cant there be a safe to use gibb blocker thats not going to leave poisonous residues in your plant? Maybe Ethephon ? Ive never used it for stretch but Its the PGR thats in Dutch Masters Reverse and Optic Foliars Switch. I know some people use it to reduce stretch and its approved for use on food crops, heres a link to a article where there using it under the brand name Florel using it at different ppms to slow vertical growth.

http://www.gpnmag.com/ethephon-drenches-bedding-plants

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BB - fair call on being too hard on him to some degree. However, let's not bullshit ourselves. He's come out with a question about the use of a product which he clearly knows there are possible health implications attached to. Hence, his I do not want to discuss health implications... I.e. "I'd prefer if we left arguments about weather or not this product is safe for human consumption" In other words, I don't give a shit about the consumer, let's not even discuss their safety - all I want to know is how to use this particular poison.

My initial thought was to tell him how to use it correctly when growing med. That is, drink a litre and call me in morning I.e.

One of four rhesus monkeys receiving an oral dose of 500 mg/kg
body-weight of chlormequat died. At this high dose level heavy
salivation and emesis were noted, but the survivors appeared normal after administration and remained so during the 7 day follow-up period. Gross pathology revealed little change that could be related to chlormequat (Costa et al., 1967).

Just joking, and it's disgusting they test on animals in the name of science.

Okay - Number 1: MB Ferts is run by an unethical chemtard who I have been unfortunate enough to have had dealings with. He's a failed grower who then decided he could be a nutrient chemist without even being able to grow. In fact, the formulas he supplies are formulas which I supplied him with (he has subsequently butchered at least one of them and added components to it, at least one of which is decomposed by another molecule (i.e. reacts with another molecule thus rendering two molecules ineffective) that is present in the formula). Other than this, as he has no concept of chemistry he's probably butchering the nutrient formulas because he is incapable of reformulation based on chemical variations/purities between batches of fertilizers. He also tried trading off my rep and initially called his company Maniac Botanics (you'll note my site is called Manic Botanix). Basically, without going into too much detail as this is a legal issue - the guy is a dirt bag and frankly I am sick of receiving complaints via my site from people he has burnt. More importantly, he has no idea and because he is such a retarded grower is a long term PGR user (never mind the consumer hey!!). Now he is selling a chem PGR with long withholding periods to growers of a short term deciduous consumable crop. Medical Botanics (again trading off) no less which is about as unethical as it gets when selling chem PGRs (subclass growth retardant) BTW - he has adopted a couple of names on this site and is shilling his wares here posing as a grower and not disclosing his true identity. We've been watching him now for some time.

As for CC....

It is well documented that CC (actually CCC if you want to get the chemical formula correct) has an impact on the immune system (i.e. CCC is immunetoxic)

See:

http://www.pan-uk.org/attachments/101_Pesticides_Immune_Suppression_and_HIV_AIDS.pdf

(see page 2 and note that Chlormequat is listed).

Next is:

"With regard to residues, the metabolism of chlormequat chloride was investigated in wheat. The major component in grain and straw at harvest was unmetabolised chlormequat."

Re EPA regulations:

"Chlormequat chloride is a plant growth regulator (PGR) registered for use on ornamental plants grown in greenhouses, nurseries and shadehouses. As chlormequat chloride has no food/feed uses and no U.S. tolerances associated with its use, it is not subject to the Food Quality Protection Act of 1996."

see: http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/chlormequat_red.pdf

Last time I checked medical is not an ornamental crop.

The EU also takes it very seriously:

http://www.downtoearth.org.in/node/290


Sorry BB I aren't interested in answering your chem questions re safe chem growth retardants (as far as I know there aren't any that are suitable for the production of med). I've given you the one and only answer I am prepared to give on another thread. I.e. use blended spectrum lighting, use low P and get all environmental parameters to optimum (along with Scrogging) and if this doesn't correct your issue you need to look at other genetics and let greenhouse growers handle the leggy strains that aren't suitable for indoor, under lights production.

Whatthe215 implies that you are from Ca and claim to be a med grower while being prepared to poison med patients with an immunetoxin. I've linked the CDFA to this thread and hopefully they'll be ordering some CCC from the clown shoes at MB (Maniacal BS) shortly so that they can then slap bans on him trading into Ca (he's based in Mi so as he's shipping across Fed lines....)

Sorry I couldn't go into more detail - surfs up and I need to ride.

I like how he( THE CHEMTARD AT mbNUTES) tried stealing your name in the beginning, but now is peddling chemical PGR's.

Repleat with all the false "safe, organic" marketing that you (G.low manic botanix) originally lambasted.

His ethical standards make it hard to trust the guy at all. I wouldn't buy anything from him that was not prepackaged by someone else.

OK everyone chill your tits for a minute. Here's the important info, page 16 (3.1 Nature and magnitudes of residue in plants) from http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/179r.pdf

Essentially says that 84 days after application, there is still a significant amount of CCC residue present. ~50mg/kg on day 0 and still ~15mg/kg on day 84.

So, bottom line is this product is NOT broken down quickly by plants.

I do still wonder if this is significantly safer than Phosphoload.

whatthe215 said:

OK everyone chill your tits for a minute. Here's the important info, page 16 (3.1 Nature and magnitudes of residue in plants) from http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/179r.pdf

Essentially says that 84 days after application, there is still a significant amount of CCC residue present. ~50mg/kg on day 0 and still ~15mg/kg on day 84.

So, bottom line is this product is NOT broken down quickly by plants.

I do still wonder if this is significantly safer than Phosphoload.

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Different poisons - same effect. Harming med consumers.

Phosphoload is a combination of Alar (Daminozide) and Paclobutrazol (PBZ). Alar is a known human carcinogen and banned for use on any consumable crop. PBZ is toxic to the liver and carcinogenicity unknown because not enough research has been done.

CCC is an immunetoxin - same outcome. By using it in cultivating a consumable crop you are endangering medical consumers.

More info here on chem PGRs (subclass growth retardants)

http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydro-hype/27-pgrs-and-medical-marijuana.html

Do yourself and your plants a favour and stop shopping with the low life at MB Ferts.

Avenger said:

I like how he( THE CHEMTARD AT mbNUTES) tried stealing your name in the beginning, but now is peddling chemical PGR's.

Repleat with all the false "safe, organic" marketing that you (G.low manic botanix) originally lambasted.

His ethical standards make it hard to trust the guy at all. I wouldn't buy anything from him that was not prepackaged by someone else.

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Yep - can't see the humour in it myself but quite ironic really. The guys a parasite who is trying to cash in on bullshit and lies.

CC sounds like some nasty stuff with a long ass withholding period, fuck MBferts for making it sound safe and saying its FDA approved and used on food crops, paclo sounds safer than CC, Ive read studies where they fed poor little dogs,rabbits and rats paclo every day at 125mg a day for a year and it showed no ill effect only animals given higher levels of 750mg a day had liver issues and cleft palets but thats A LOT of paclo, the human equivalent dosage would be something like eating a cheeseburger of pure paclo a day, which tells me paclo is pretty safe if used properly, I highly doubt using it once on your plants at less than 100 ppms at the beginning of flower would cause any health issues. Alar on the other hand a know carcinogen is a different story so is using paclo as a later flower hardener.

Ive never personally used it for stretch so I cant comment on how well it works but Ethephon sounds like the safest chem PGR for the purpose, most commercial crops use Ethephon or some derivative to chemically ripen there crops and it only has a 15 day withholding period.

BubbaBear said:

CC sounds like some nasty stuff with a long ass withholding period, fuck MBferts for making it sound safe and saying its FDA approved and used on food crops, paclo sounds safer than CC, Ive read studies where they fed poor little dogs,rabbits and rats paclo every day at 125mg a day for a year and it showed no ill effect only animals given higher levels of 750mg a day had liver issues and cleft palets but thats A LOT of paclo, the human equivalent dosage would be something like eating a cheeseburger of pure paclo a day, which tells me paclo is pretty safe if used properly, I highly doubt using it once on your plants at less than 100 ppms at the beginning of flower would cause any health issues. Alar on the other hand a know carcinogen is a different story so is using paclo as a later flower hardener.

Ive never personally used it for stretch so I cant comment on how well it works but Ethephon sounds like the safest chem PGR for the purpose, most commercial crops use Ethephon or some derivative to chemically ripen there crops and it only has a 15 day withholding period.

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Lab tests and the science would prove you wrong BB. 15% of all med produce The Werc Shop tests fail the pesticide screen - of this 50% tests positive for PBZ. Anyone who uses toxins to produce medicine is a dirt bag and should be peddling meth. Why would you possibly think that a chem that reverses sex would act as a GA inhibitor? Completely different mechanisms. The problem I see is that Ca needs to regulate the production of med inline to other States (and other countries - e.g. Israel, Holland and Italy) where they give out licenses to a few growers to produce medical quality marijuana. It is clear that the cowboy mentality is alive and well in Ca and its sad to say that the only thing that looks certain to protect med users is to ensure medical is produced by suitably qualified people who are subject to strict scrutiny of their production methods. Of course, then all the California Cowboys will scream foul but then it was them that shot themselves in the foot. Basically, if growers can't clean up their act then I expect the State will. I know there are organizations lobbying the Ca Government to do just this. In fact I read a submission recently to Washington State that used California as a model of how not to do things re producing med. They highlighted in this submission the rampant use of chem PGRs by Ca growers and noted that this was "highly concerning."

PS BB... brassinosteroids will ripen a crop prematurely but they won't reduce stretch anywhere near GA inhibitor level. I hear people saying that Canna Boost is TRIA based, but I expect that it is a combo of TRIA and brassinosteroids and perhaps one other component best left undisclosed.

Im not surprised 15% of meds in clubs contain paclo but I bet thats because people use it late in flower to add weight like Gravity does and since all the clubs just want cheap commercial flowers these days and commercial growers dont give a fuck about peoples health im not suprised one bit. I use to love Gravity back when I thought it was a magic kelp extract lol it does makes your flowers heavy. But I dont believe that is the proper way to use paclo, using it to restrict hight and using it to add last minute weight to your flowers are two different things entirely.

The clubs totally need to be more regulated, l think there should be clubs just for really sick people that have licensed growers just for those clubs. In California you can get a scrip for anything from terminal cancer to writers block, so there should be clubs for or at least of a selection on meds from licensed growers with each batch tested for mold, pesticides, growth regulators and heavy metals. But it should be a option because it would make meds cost quite a bit more so just like we have the option of shopping at Whole Foods or Food4less we shpuld at least have the option of buying chem free meds amd not ccommercial crops. l totally agree though glow if you really need weed as medicine you should be able to go to a club and know for a fact theres nothing that could make you sicker. The regulations will come now that marijuana is really being accredited as a medicine.

As far as Ethephon not working as a gibb inhibitor I cant tell you from first hand experience but in my first post in this thread I included a link where people were using it to reduce stretch on several different types of crops and theres other threads on here that discuss using it for that purpose.

BubbaBear said:

Im not surprised 15% of meds in clubs contain paclo but I bet thats because people use it late in flower to add weight like Gravity does and since all the clubs just want cheap commercial flowers these days and commercial growers dont give a fuck about peoples health im not suprised one bit. I use to love Gravity back when I thought it was a magic kelp extract lol it does makes your flowers heavy. But I dont believe that is the proper way to use paclo, using it to restrict hight and using it to add last minute weight to your flowers are two different things entirely.

The clubs totally need to be more regulated, l think there should be clubs just for really sick people that have licensed growers just for those clubs. In California you can get a scrip for anything from terminal cancer to writers block, so there should be clubs for or at least of a selection on meds from licensed growers with each batch tested for mold, pesticides, growth regulators and heavy metals. But it should be a option because it would make meds cost quite a bit more so just like we have the option of shopping at Whole Foods or Food4less. l totally agree though glow if you really need weed as medicine you should be able to go to a club and know for a fact theres nothing that could make you sicker. The regulations will come now that marijuana is really being accredited as a medicine.

As far as Ethephon not working as a gibb inhibitor I cant tell you from first hand experience but in my first post in this thread I included a link where people were using it to reduce stretch on several different types of crops and theres other threads on here that discuss using it for that purpose.

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Ethephon is an organophosphate pesticide.Organophosphate pesticides are a particularly nasty group of pesticides where toxicity is concerned. For instance, ethephon causes neurotoxic effects (cholinesterase inhibition) - see EPA report http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/0382fact.pdf

BB, everybody has the right to buy non toxic med, but most importantly immune suppressed patients. This said, how many med buyers do you think don't care that cowboys are potentially killing them with greed? Prob is you're thinking like a cash cropper and have forgotten what it is to be the consumer on the receiving end I expect. I never use anything that can potentially make my product more toxic than it need be. What would you consider is the difference between me and you?

Since Ethephon or similar chemicals are used to chemically ripen a large number of commercially grown fruits its safe to say most consumers are unknowingly exposed to much higher amounts than one would be exposed to using it on a marijuana plant 8-10 weeks before harvest. A lot of the produce we get is from Mexico and the use a ton of chem PGRs and pesticides down there so l bet the average consumer is exposing themselves to more chemicals trying to be healthy eating fruits and veggies than the amount of chems in club weed. We all have the right to know what we put in our bodies but unfortunately most of the time the only way to know is through self education.

glow said:

PS BB... brassinosteroids will ripen a crop prematurely but they won't reduce stretch anywhere near GA inhibitor level. I hear people saying that Canna Boost is TRIA based, but I expect that it is a combo of TRIA and brassinosteroids and perhaps one other component best left undisclosed.

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Canna claims that the active ingredient in boost is an oligosaccharide that stimulates the plants immune system. I am curious as to what you think it might be.

That MBFerts dude totally ripped off your ideas from Manic Botanix. Thanks for clearing up any ambiguity regarding the safety of chlormequat chloride.

bigalthegrower said:

Canna claims that the active ingredient in boost is an oligosaccharide that stimulates the plants immune system. I am curious as to what you think it might be.

That MBFerts dude totally ripped off your ideas from Manic Botanix. Thanks for clearing up any ambiguity regarding the safety of chlormequat chloride.

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Yep, manufacturers in general talk a lot of impressive sounding gobbly gook but when you dissect it you pretty much can see right through it. Oligosaccharides do not act like PGRs such as TRIA or roids for plants. Bit of an overview of oligosaccharide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligosaccharide

"That MBFerts dude totally ripped off your ideas from Manic Botanix. Thanks for clearing up any ambiguity regarding the safety of chlormequat chloride"

My pleasure. And yes, if people actually knew who this cretin is and what he stands for no one would purchase from him. He white anted us early on creating websites to slander us etc. Ugly little man that I am very much looking forward to looking at in the eyes in a quiet room. BTW - what name is he using when doing business (i.e. christian and surname)? So far we've heard several.

BubbaBear said:

Since Ethephon or similar chemicals are used to chemically ripen a large number of commercially grown fruits its safe to say most consumers are unknowingly exposed to much higher amounts than one would be exposed to using it on a marijuana plant 8-10 weeks before harvest. A lot of the produce we get is from Mexico and the use a ton of chem PGRs and pesticides down there so l bet the average consumer is exposing themselves to more chemicals trying to be healthy eating fruits and veggies than the amount of chems in club weed. We all have the right to know what we put in our bodies but unfortunately most of the time the only way to know is through self education.

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So what you are saying is you should aim for the lowest common denominator? And no medicine is highly regulated in general and you won't be getting cheap assed Mexican imported knock offs in the U.S. without them being thoroughly tested before going to market. One other thing you are missing is that pesticides are being directly inhaled into the lungs with a combustible crop which means they pass into the blood and organs very effectively when compared to edible produce. For example, a 1 packet a day cigarette smoker has 3 - 5 times the blood cadmium levels of a non smoker etc. The Werc Shop recently ran research on pesticides in the smoke stream and showed that a high percentage of pesticide residue goes directly into the lungs. Why not just come out and put your cards on the table BB. The whole time we have traded notes you have been trying to justify the use of chem PGRs and you're desperately trying to get sanction for that from other growers. Wrong person to be talking to BB - you'll never hear me sanctioning greed and cowboy med growers.

glow said:

So what you are saying is you should aim for the lowest common denominator? And no medicine is highly regulated in general and you won't be getting cheap assed Mexican imported knock offs in the U.S. without them being thoroughly tested before going to market. One other thing you are missing is that pesticides are being directly inhaled into the lungs with a combustible crop which means they pass into the blood and organs very effectively when compared to edible produce. For example, a 1 packet a day cigarette smoker has 3 - 5 times the blood cadmium levels of a non smoker etc. The Werc Shop recently ran research on pesticides in the smoke stream and showed that a high percentage of pesticide residue goes directly into the lungs. Why not just come out and put your cards on the table BB. The whole time we have traded notes you have been trying to justify the use of chem PGRs and you're desperately trying to get sanction for that from other growers. Wrong person to be talking to BB - you'll never hear me sanctioning greed and cowboy med growers.

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Im not trying to justify the use of chem PGRs or especially pesticides and fungicides in flower and im thankful for your input and for what you've done for the the weed world by being the whistle blower on companies using unlisted chem PGRs. Ive used Phosphoload and Gravity in the past till I found out whats in them in large part thanks to you. Im not some commercial cash cropper I grow healthy meds for myself because club weed is so unregulated and l know from being a educated grower the toxins that could be in marijuana or any crop for that matter. It shouldn't take dangerous chemicals to slow a plants vertical growth. I use Heavy 16 Fire, Uber NRA foliar and foliar feed with Aptus Fasilitor and it keeps my plants fairly stout. I do grow stretchy strains and have 8 foot ceilings so I do what l can to keep my plants as short as possible with out using chem PGRs. Sorry if im coming off as some pro chem cash cropper, I just like to keep my plants short and im not convinced every chem PGR is going to be toxic to the end user with so many being used in commercial fruits and veggies, im just bringing what I know to the table im not trying to argue with you I appreciate your input and knowledge

BubbaBear said:

Im not trying to justify the use of chem PGRs or especially pesticides and fungicides in flower and im thankful for your input and for what you've done for the the weed world by being the whistle blower on companies using unlisted chem PGRs. Ive used Phosphoload and Gravity in the past till I found out whats in them in large part thanks to you. Im not some commercial cash cropper I grow healthy meds for myself because club weed is so unregulated and l know from being a educated grower the toxins that could be in marijuana or any crop for that matter. It shouldn't take dangerous chemicals to slow a plants vertical growth. I use Heavy 16 Fire, Uber NRA foliar and foliar feed with Aptus Fasilitor and it keeps my plants fairly stout. I do grow stretchy strains and have 8 foot ceilings so I do what l can to keep my plants as short as possible with out using chem PGRs. Sorry if im coming off as some pro chem cash cropper, I just like to keep my plants short and im not convinced every chem PGR is going to be toxic to the end user with so many being used in commercial fruits and veggies, im just bringing what I know to the table im not trying to argue with you I appreciate your input and knowledge

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BB it is always best to err towards the side of caution when it comes to pesticides and fungicides. Agent Orange was once thought safe etc. The latest fiasco is Monsanto's Round Up which is the most commonly used herbicide in the world and for years and years has been deemed safe and environmentally friendly. Only prob is that just recently it was shown that Round Up is not only killing bee populations and polluting the environment (it bio-accumulates)but it is also likely that it is causing Parkinsons and cancer in humans. So what is safe today is not necessarily safe tomorrow. Thing is we know all the chem PGRs (subclass growth retardant) have toxicity issues - tomorrow we'll likely know more about them again and many of them are already being banned in various countries because we have enough info to be wary.

PS - no I don't see it as arguing. I was just checking in on your motivations.