Can ANYONE name the poison Eagle 20 with the active ingredient Myclobutanil??

EclipseFour20 · Aug 28, 2012

Avant...I agree, the silica sources you identified are acceptable under "organic" rules, but I can not find anywhere that suggests potassium silicate (which Pro-Tekt silica is derived from) is on the golden "organic" list.

Since I was recently drawn and quartered by the Organic Soil Zealots for not adhering to the unwritten 100% organic rule (never got the memo that said if you not 100% organic...no talky), I am kinda curious why the guy that called me out for not being 100% Organic....uses a slica source that IS NOT ORGANIC. If you know how to spell, then I think the words spell...double standard...or am I wrong?

I truly hope I am wrong...but I can not find ANYTHING to suggest that Pro-Tekt is 100% organic!? Can anyone?

I do believe in the good points about organic growing....and I believe in the good points about hydro growing...and I believe the good points about chemical growing....and with the brain that God gave me, I incorporate the best practices from each--and ignore what does not make sense!

Guess its kinda obvious, that defective sheeple trait is not in my DNA. :dance013:

EclipseFour20 · Aug 28, 2012

Hate to be the bearer of bad news--but who ever suggested that potassium silicate is an Organic soil/plant amendment has it wrong. Pro-Tekt is not allowed for "nutrition" for 100% Organic Growers.

According to the Organic Bible, "aqueous potassium silicate" can be used only as an "insecticide" or for "plant disease control"...NOT AS A PLANT OR SOIL AMENDMENT.

7 CFR 205.601 - Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.

In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may be used in organic crop production: Provided, That, use of such substances do not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water....

(e) As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control).
(1) Ammonium carbonate—for use as bait in insect traps only, no direct contact with crop or soil.
(2) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.
(3) Boric acid—structural pest control, no direct contact with organic food or crops.
(4) Copper sulfate—for use as tadpole shrimp control in aquatic rice production, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to levels which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.
(5) Elemental sulfur.
(6) Lime sulfur—including calcium polysulfide.
(7) Oils, horticultural—narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.
(8) Soaps, insecticidal.
(9) Sticky traps/barriers.
(10) Sucrose octanoate esters (CAS #s—42922-74-7; 58064-47-4)—in accordance with approved labeling.

and....

(i) As plant disease control.
(1) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.
(2) Coppers, fixed—copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products exempted from EPA tolerance, Provided, That, copper-based materials must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as herbicides.
(3) Copper sulfate—Substance must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation of copper in the soil.
(4) Hydrated lime.
(5) Hydrogen peroxide.
(6) Lime sulfur.
(7) Oils, horticultural, narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.
(8) Peracetic acid—for use to control fire blight bacteria.
(9) Potassium bicarbonate.
(10) Elemental sulfur.
(11) Streptomycin, for fire blight control in apples and pears only.
(12) Tetracycline, for fire blight control only and for use only until October 21, 2012.

Anyone see potassium silicate in the below list of permitted synthetic items?

(j) As plant or soil amendments.
(1) Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.
(2) Elemental sulfur.
(3) Humic acids—naturally occurring deposits, water and alkali extracts only.
(4) Lignin sulfonate—chelating agent, dust suppressant, floatation agent.
(5) Magnesium sulfate—allowed with a documented soil deficiency.
(6) Micronutrients—not to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be documented by testing.
(i) Soluble boron products.
(ii) Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt.
(7) Liquid fish products—can be pH adjusted with sulfuric, citric or phosphoric acid. The amount of acid used shall not exceed the minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5.
(8) Vitamins, B1, C, and E.
(9) Sulfurous acid (CAS # 7782-99-2) for on-farm generation of substance utilizing 99% purity elemental sulfur per paragraph (j)(2) of this section.

Looks like there are bunch more 98/99% Organic Growers out there. Oh No!...Danger Danger Will Robinson!

Neo 420 · Aug 28, 2012

EclipseFour20 said:
Hate to be the bearer of bad news--but who ever suggested that potassium silicate is an Organic soil/plant amendment has it wrong. Pro-Tekt is not allowed for "nutrition" for 100% Organic Growers.

According to the Organic Bible, "aqueous potassium silicate" can be used only as an "insecticide" or for "plant disease control"...NOT AS A PLANT OR SOIL AMENDMENT.

7 CFR 205.601 - Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.

In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may be used in organic crop production: Provided, That, use of such substances do not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water....

(e) As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control).
(1) Ammonium carbonate—for use as bait in insect traps only, no direct contact with crop or soil.
(2) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.
(3) Boric acid—structural pest control, no direct contact with organic food or crops.
(4) Copper sulfate—for use as tadpole shrimp control in aquatic rice production, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to levels which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.
(5) Elemental sulfur.
(6) Lime sulfur—including calcium polysulfide.
(7) Oils, horticultural—narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.
(8) Soaps, insecticidal.
(9) Sticky traps/barriers.
(10) Sucrose octanoate esters (CAS #s—42922-74-7; 58064-47-4)—in accordance with approved labeling.

and....

(i) As plant disease control.
(1) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.
(2) Coppers, fixed—copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products exempted from EPA tolerance, Provided, That, copper-based materials must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as herbicides.
(3) Copper sulfate—Substance must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation of copper in the soil.
(4) Hydrated lime.
(5) Hydrogen peroxide.
(6) Lime sulfur.
(7) Oils, horticultural, narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.
(8) Peracetic acid—for use to control fire blight bacteria.
(9) Potassium bicarbonate.
(10) Elemental sulfur.
(11) Streptomycin, for fire blight control in apples and pears only.
(12) Tetracycline, for fire blight control only and for use only until October 21, 2012.

Anyone see potassium silicate in the below list of permitted synthetic items?

(j) As plant or soil amendments.
(1) Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.
(2) Elemental sulfur.
(3) Humic acids—naturally occurring deposits, water and alkali extracts only.
(4) Lignin sulfonate—chelating agent, dust suppressant, floatation agent.
(5) Magnesium sulfate—allowed with a documented soil deficiency.
(6) Micronutrients—not to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be documented by testing.
(i) Soluble boron products.
(ii) Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt.
(7) Liquid fish products—can be pH adjusted with sulfuric, citric or phosphoric acid. The amount of acid used shall not exceed the minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5.
(8) Vitamins, B1, C, and E.
(9) Sulfurous acid (CAS # 7782-99-2) for on-farm generation of substance utilizing 99% purity elemental sulfur per paragraph (j)(2) of this section.

Looks like there are bunch more 98/99% Organic Growers out there. Oh No!...Danger Danger Will Robinson!

Hey alphabet boy..
Reread your own post and read the context in which I gave the formula. I suggested the use of silicon for what???? Plant disease control
NOT AS A AMENDMENT.

You are failing again just like you failed as a organic grower.

In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may be used in organic crop production: Provided, That, use of such substances do not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water....

(2) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

i) As plant disease control.
(1) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629

Go back to piss and nuclear rock options.

YosemiteSam · Aug 28, 2012

The poisonous ingredient in Eagle 20 is stupidity.

Somehow I think some of the people that claim not to use it in flower...have. You admit using it in the first place when you really don't need to...do you really expect us to believe you don't if your $ are actually threatened in flower.

medicalmj · Aug 28, 2012

YosemiteSam said:
Somehow I think some of the people that claim not to use it in flower...have. You admit using it in the first place when you really don't need to...do you really expect us to believe you don't if your $ are actually threatened in flower.

^spot on Yosemite^

We need a "What NOT to do to cannabis" sticky!

Mia · Aug 28, 2012

Neo 420 said:
Hey alphabet boy..
Reread your own post and read the context in which I gave the formula. I suggested the use of silicon for what???? Plant disease control
NOT AS A AMENDMENT.

No you didn't.
You simply listed the ingredients in your concoction without specifying it's mode of application.
I'm very partial to organic methods and philosophy, but some of you guys really crack me up with all your condescending hypocritical bullshit.

Neo 420 · Aug 28, 2012

Mia said:
No you didn't.
You simply listed the ingredients in your concoction without specifying it's mode of application.
I'm very partial to organic methods and philosophy, but some of you guys really crack me up with all your condescending hypocritical bullshit.

The subject matter at hand is obviously in regards to powder mildew. Did you think the recipe i gave should be applied with a soil drench and its for PM? Seriously?

Condescending? Hypocritical bullshit? Who? Where?

The only reason EagleFour20 is trying to bust my balls is over him getting called out on other threads. Otherwise there was no behavior on my part to suggest condescending hypocritical bullshit.
The recipe I stated stands and EagleFour20 even brought the facts to support it so wheres the condescending hypocritical bullshit? If you wanted to know the application then you should ask. Otherwise your assuming.
Whatever you dealt with in the past is on you....

EclipseFour20 · Aug 28, 2012

^^^ what Mia said.

Neo, why are you all huffy puffy? I did not quote you or make any reference to your post.

Rather your post got me thinking and I asked a "simple question"--is potassium silicate "Organic"?. The next morning I did about 3 minutes of research I found the answer; which I then cut and pasted the answer directly from the Organic Bible.

Funny how truth has a way of exposing falsehoods and misconceptions.

And dude if you are offended or upset, then please direct your anger to the person that told you these falsehoods and misconceptions and not to me! For I am just the messenger.

BTW, restricted use of potassium silicate was approved in 2010 (not 2011 as I originally stated) and scheduled to expire in 2015...so I knew I was not crazy, just behind on the New Organic Laws.

Cheers!

On Edit...the regulations were published in December 2010--http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5088166

Neo 420 · Aug 28, 2012

I'm not offended at all. Just seems like there was some assumptions being made on the application of my recipe but that's all clear now. So we can carry on with the discussion of eagle20.

Neo 420 · Aug 28, 2012

Does anyone know the effects of spraying eagle 20 in a enclosed unit (inside a house)? If i am not mistaken it was meant for greenhouse and large open outside areas. Can't seem to find any documentation on it....

budderfly · Aug 29, 2012

Want to start a flame war between normally sociable and agreeable stoners? Just mention Eagle 20.

RanchoDeluxe said:
Workers exposed to myclobutanil have reported symptoms such as skin rash, allergic dermatitis, itchiness, nausea, heachache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, vomiting, nosebleed, and eye irritation (CDPR).

In a two-generation study on rats over the effects of myclobutanil on reproduction, researchers found a decrease in pup weight gain, increased incidence of stillborns, and atrophy of the testes and prostate (EPA). Myclobutanil is listed as a developmental toxin in the Toxics Release Inventory (PANNA).

Chronic toxicity tests on rats found decreased body weight and changes to brain and spleen weight, in addition to reproductive effects (EPA).

I fail to understand why a chemical that does this ^^^^^ would be willingly sprayed on a cannabis plant other than purely for GREED.

You have very obviously never done any reading of the studies you pretend to reference, at least not with your eyes open.

Go look up what exposure levels were required to notice any negative effects. It's more Eagle 20 than even a commercial 10k+ grower would use in a year if they sprayed it every run.

vukman · Aug 29, 2012

YosemiteSam said:
The poisonous ingredient in Eagle 20 is stupidity.

midwestHIGHS · Aug 29, 2012

I feel the people that back eagle 20 are looking for justification that their sprayed crop is ok to pass on to others. Like I said before you want to use this crap go right ahead, but keep the smoke to your self.

Neo 420 · Aug 29, 2012

budderfly said:
You have very obviously never done any reading of the studies you pretend to reference, at least not with your eyes open.

Go look up what exposure levels were required to notice any negative effects. It's more Eagle 20 than even a commercial 10k+ grower would use in a year if they sprayed it every run.

What did your studies say about indoor use? Or use on smokable products? Residual traces? Any of those studies on cannabis?

Use what you want on your garden. It's none of my business. Just don' t lead your post with data that is irelavant.

coastal · Aug 29, 2012

If I used eagle20 once on my garden a couple years ago how much residual traces of nasty chemicals do you guys think are left in my plants now? Just curious...

I don't know who these people are who spray this shit every round and in flower, but I used it once on small veg followed by cleaning of the grow area and the problem was 100% gone. This was after using every organic bandaid I could for a year or two, to no avail. If I had to guess I'd say that 1-2ml of the eagle has been sprayed by me in total. Once. Years ago. I must be a greedy, stupid piece of shit who has a forever tainted garden, right? LOL You guys crack me up.

medicalmj · Aug 29, 2012

coastal said:
If I used eagle20 once on my garden a couple years ago how much residual traces of nasty chemicals do you guys think are left in my plants now? Just curious...

I don't know who these people are who spray this shit every round and in flower, but I used it once on small veg followed by cleaning of the grow area and the problem was 100% gone. This was after using every organic bandaid I could for a year or two, to no avail. If I had to guess I'd say that 1-2ml of the eagle has been sprayed by me in total. Once. Years ago. I must be a greedy, stupid piece of shit who has a forever tainted garden, right? LOL You guys crack me up.

Big dif between using a NONsystemic in veg and dousin flowers with it! I am not an organic grower and probably never will be. Look, I'd use it if its OK for grapes AND I'm in veg, But once you got big buds with all those crevices, it's gonna be in the smoke AND that's where I draw the line. If growers treat it early and often, they wouldn't have to worry about blastin buds with nasty chems. I am always spraying plants in veg w combo neem/karanja and then spinosad or serenade depending on the season. Summer more spinosad winter more seranade, as more fungus in winter and more mites/thrips in summer

Always use neem and karanja together at 1/2 oz/gal each. This combo is best kept secret ever! Research it.

EclipseFour20 · Aug 29, 2012

Eagle20 is a systemic with a long half-life, but it does not have any translocation properties; meaning once sprayed--the ingredients do not move within the plant (like transferring from leaf to leaf...or leaf to bud).

A greenhouse 14C RH-3866 (myclobutanil 14C radiolabelled in the phenyl or triazole ring) study to assess the translocation indicates no significant amount of 14C residues was translocated from the treated leaf to the roots or foliage in grape and apple seedlings. However RH-3866 was easily absorbed from a nutrient solution by the roots and translocated in wheat and grape seedlings.

http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2011/sc-hc/H113-27-2010-14-eng.pdf

Over a 12 day period under greenhouse conditions, a constant uptake of myclobutanil from leaflet surfaces into the leaflet tissue was observed. Once in the leaflet, myclobutanil was seen to redistribute throughout the tissue, although no movement out of leaflets occurred owing to a lack of phloem mobility.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18683908

Hope this helps!

332359 · Aug 29, 2012

Both sides can argue about this forever. Nothing will change. The people who care about the plants will be the ones that understand. The growers who have compassion for humans will know what's right. The decision is obvious to us not to use a chemical that's not meant for indoor cannabis. The other side will twist the truth however they have to. In the end to them its only about profits and saving work hours. They don't care if they are potentially poisoning their clients. They even use arguments like smoking cannabis is bad for you too so its OK if we add more bad chemicals. Its sad but they ant be changed. I was like that too but it got too obvious for me to not see it that I changed my ways for the right reasons. Is it possible that when used right there may be no poison? Its possible but just the fact that it is possible then it is unethical until there is testing done to prove it is a safe method with cannabis. When I mean testing I mean sent specifically to test for the chemicals in Eagal20. As a community of growers we have to set the standards and not be like the global corporations all about profit over product. There's no standards, its just a free for all.

SeaMaiden · Aug 29, 2012

Well, it seems that my post outlining what the real toxins/poisons in E20 are was blown right past. As was the issue with resistance that is already being experienced.

So I'm going to head in a slightly different direction and suggest that grapes are really NOT the best corollary when we're looking to products to use with cannabis. Grapes are not, and never have been dried and smoked. What is dried and smoked? That's right--tobacco. Is E20 approved for use on tobacco? Nope.

Done, done and DONE.

vukman · Aug 29, 2012

SeaMaiden said:
Well, it seems that my post outlining what the real toxins/poisons in E20 are was blown right past. As was the issue with resistance that is already being experienced.

So I'm going to head in a slightly different direction and suggest that grapes are really NOT the best corollary when we're looking to products to use with cannabis. Grapes are not, and never have been dried and smoked. What is dried and smoked? That's right--tobacco. Is E20 approved for use on tobacco? Nope.

Done, done and DONE.

Aww......I wanted to say Done, done and DONE!.....

Excellent point SeaMaiden. I have been lurking and reading as I do with most every post when it comes to the health of our 'loved ones'.
Been said over and over again...
There are those that will never use the substance.
There are those that will use it, cautiously, carefully and never in flower.
There are those that will use it.

Neither side will ever convince the other 2 that they are right or wrong. Call it a mute point, human nature, the unwillingness for someone not to give in and admit error........you said it all.....

Done, done and DONE.....

Can ANYONE name the poison Eagle 20 with the active ingredient Myclobutanil??

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