True Terpenes VISCOSITY extract liquifier LAB TESTS: Mineral oil but no terps!!

I'm not jumping on a bandwagon or setting out to lynch TT. There are some very trustworthy people who vouch for TT morals not that it means nothing could possibly be awry. If we could get some more confirmations and independent tests sent in from other members I think it would start to look bad for TT.

Another question I have out of sheer ignorance. Are there any less volatile terpenes that may show peaks similar to mineral oil on a GC or an HPLC

What are the chances it peaks the same as mineral oil, but is something healthier than mineral oil? Infinitesimal or likely? I have to say I really know extremely little about it.

As for TT coming through, I'm not going to hold my breath. Their customer service could simply be lacking, but it's not the impression I get. Digging a deeper hole does not make it easier to get out, and I just see them making things worse. Having spent decades in customer service, it's sad to see.

Drama, drama, drama...

p0opstlnksal0t said:

I'm not jumping on a bandwagon or setting out to lynch TT. There are some very trustworthy people who vouch for TT morals not that it means nothing could possibly be awry. If we could get some more confirmations and independent tests sent in from other members I think it would start to look bad for TT.

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The morals of buying cheap shit from China with no personal oversight, or just being an incompetent businessman in general?

You can't even buy a batch of plastic flutes from China without having a man at the factory on a regular basis. They'll stop drilling the holes out after 3 days of production, and would be using lead paint from day one if you never got it on paper that you'd sue em for doing so.

But you know, that's china's fault, all shitty retailers forgiven by the grace of the American fanboy consumer, they aren't end users after all. Even though it's common knowledge you cant let China control their own production. They sell cardboard biscuits and plastic rice to their own people for fux sake.

Just my experienced take on the situation.

Douglas.Curtis said:

What are the chances it peaks the same as mineral oil, but is something healthier than mineral oil? Infinitesimal or likely? I have to say I really know extremely little about it.

As for TT coming through, I'm not going to hold my breath. Their customer service could simply be lacking, but it's not the impression I get. Digging a deeper hole does not make it easier to get out, and I just see them making things worse. Having spent decades in customer service, it's sad to see.

Drama, drama, drama...

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Infinitesimal.



If there were any chance of it being some unknown and super heavy terpenes (including terpenoids) the many Ph.D. chemists who specialize in essential oil and terpene constituents GC-MS testing would have mentioned it. They all said there are no signs of any terpenes at all, including squalene.

p0opstlnksal0t said:

I'm not jumping on a bandwagon or setting out to lynch TT. There are some very trustworthy people who vouch for TT morals not that it means nothing could possibly be awry. If we could get some more confirmations and independent tests sent in from other members I think it would start to look bad for TT.

Another question I have out of sheer ignorance. Are there any less volatile terpenes that may show peaks similar to mineral oil on a GC or an HPLC

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I agree. I keep hoping TT can prove they didn't do this. I don't like being right in this case because that means people have been vaping poison.


There are no less volatile or heavy terps that show peaks similar to mineral oil that I'm aware of. And the same goes for the Ph.D chemists who study and test terps everyday. I'd guess squalene would be the closest to mineral oil in terms of peaks, but that's not in there according to all three tests (I had them look specifically for squalene).

Drewsif said:

The morals of buying cheap shit from China with no personal oversight, or just being an incompetent businessman in general?

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I was unaware that @trueterpenes was sourcing product from China and repackaging it. Do you have proof any any reason you think this to be true?

ExtractNinja said:

I agree. I keep hoping TT can prove they didn't do this. I don't like being right in this case because that means people have been vaping poison.


There are no less volatile or heavy terps that show peaks similar to mineral oil that I'm aware of. And the same goes for the Ph.D chemists who study and test terps everyday. I'd guess squalene would be the closest to mineral oil in terms of peaks, but that's not in there according to all three tests (I had them look specifically for squalene).

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I would think squalene was the heavier or less volatile of terpenes with it's 30 carbon chain. But I'm not as smart as I would like to be so I figured I'd posit that theory.

This issue has been brought over to my forum so I thought it suitable for me to respond here as well.

Full disclosure, I have been friends with the founder since he started TT, and they are affilated with the GoodLifeGang.

With that being said, I put my reputation on the line when I say that they would never knowingly put mineral oil in a bottle and sell it as Terpenes. Not only because that would basically tank their business, but because they are generally good people.

The ingredients, which being the open source guy that I am, I have pushed endlessly for them to release, are sourced from an ISO certified mfg. So if it does turn out to be mineral oil, most of the blame will be rightfully passed down the line to the supplier. Although, TT will share some of it for not performing proper QC. (Although TT sent their QC lady to the ISO facility to verify the product in person).


I have in my posession, a bottle of TT Viscosity that I was given when they first released the product. The seal is broken and their is no batch number on the bottle, but TT has offered to pay for the lab testing of this bottle I have (We recognize this isn't perfect and has all sorts of flaws, but its a step in the right direction).


If anyone has any other suggestions of how I might be able to help clear this up, I am all ears.

Howdy Future,

Since you asked for input, why not test a sealed bottle instead? This would improve the legitimacy of the testing to the eyes of the public. From my perspective, it would be pointless to test an unsealed bottle at this stage.

I am not personally familiar with labs that will allow you to pay for testing but not publicly disclose results, as EN has suggested. From my perspective, posting censored test results are worthless as they leave room for doubt.

My experience with TT customer service has been very positive, but their response here is almost a blueprint of what not to do to inspire trust.

To be devils advocate it is entirely plausible that their supplier got over with a mineral oil swap anr they just werent testing each batch. If this was the case, Id think that theyve been sitting on this for long enough to know by now.

Just my .02

P.s. thanks for hosting your site future it is a treasure trove of information

Future4200 said:

This issue has been brought over to my forum so I thought it suitable for me to respond here as well.

Full disclosure, I have been friends with the founder since he started TT, and they are affilated with the GoodLifeGang.

With that being said, I put my reputation on the line when I say that they would never knowingly put mineral oil in a bottle and sell it as Terpenes. Not only because that would basically tank their business, but because they are generally good people.

The ingredients, which being the open source guy that I am, I have pushed endlessly for them to release, are sourced from an ISO certified mfg. So if it does turn out to be mineral oil, most of the blame will be rightfully passed down the line to the supplier. Although, TT will share some of it for not performing proper QC. (Although TT sent their QC lady to the ISO facility to verify the product in person).


I have in my posession, a bottle of TT Viscosity that I was given when they first released the product. The seal is broken and their is no batch number on the bottle, but TT has offered to pay for the lab testing of this bottle I have (We recognize this isn't perfect and has all sorts of flaws, but its a step in the right direction).


If anyone has any other suggestions of how I might be able to help clear this up, I am all ears.

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Two questions, what and why???

Hello Future4200 Dustinsan! I've been watching this thread and purposefully staying arms length, but perhaps I can add another layer.

For instance I notice both opponents joined about the same time, but suggest that we all look at posts by both, to see how evenly balanced their posts are, as a measure of purpose and intent joining.

IE: Why are they on this forum?

We know who the company TT is, what they sell, and what they are here to defend, but who is Ninjasan, what are his affiliations, and intent?

Clearly not an advocate for TT, but consider TT's competitors, and whom it conceivably could be???????????

Ninjasan, may we better understand who you are?? What is your interest and agenda?

I haven't a clue who owns TT, and have no personal association, though did check them out with one of their chief competitors, with whom I have a personal relationship, and whom regularly checks their competitors products in their labs with GC/HPLC/MS.


They said that TT was a reputable competitor, whom strived for quality , but whom might conceivably fuxx up out of inexperience, though in their opinion would not knowingly grievously sin.

That doesn't excuse the possibility that they may have sinned grievously out of ignorance or ineffective QC, as well as the "remote" possibility that the aggrieved, has an ax or commercial interest to grind.

Soooo, the suggestion......... Lot's of money being waved around to cover costs, so if someone pays for a lab acceptable to both parties, and I can have a list of companies distributing the TT product, I will select and pay for a random sample from one of those locations ,and take it to the agreed upon lab with custody papers and seal intact.

That would give us a comparison of Future 4200's broken seal sample and TT's current off the shelf distribution.


That resolves the issue of content, though not any issues resolving subcontractors and vendors.


Take into consideration that I acknowledge that I am friends with TT's competitor, but will strive to remain professionally neutral, as I have no other agenda or interest.

Dustin has acknowledged that he is friends with TT, but has an old opened sample for testing, and whom I believe will strive to remain professionally neutral.

That should balance perfect, as we have Ninjasan, whom is at least TT's adversary, if not competitor, guarding the hen house.

Future4200 said:

This issue has been brought over to my forum so I thought it suitable for me to respond here as well.

Full disclosure, I have been friends with the founder since he started TT, and they are affilated with the GoodLifeGang.

With that being said, I put my reputation on the line when I say that they would never knowingly put mineral oil in a bottle and sell it as Terpenes. Not only because that would basically tank their business, but because they are generally good people.

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Howdy. Thanks for stopping by. Your site is dope!

Thank you for your honesty. And I hope you understand that makes you more suspect of biases than me, because you have personal and financial ties to TT.

Future4200 said:

The ingredients, which being the open source guy that I am, I have pushed endlessly for them to release, are sourced from an ISO certified mfg. So if it does turn out to be mineral oil, most of the blame will be rightfully passed down the line to the supplier. Although, TT will share some of it for not performing proper QC. (Although TT sent their QC lady to the ISO facility to verify the product in person).

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I wouldn't say "most of the blame will be rightly passed down the line" because that assumes TT isn't lying. And so far they haven't done one thing to prove their honesty besides saying they're honest. Oh yeah, they also attacked me and called me names and implied I'm dishonest, among other things.

There are zero signs of any terps in Viscosity. So, if Viscosity has more than one terp like they claim, more than one product would have to have been replaced with mineral oil by the supplier.....something I find very unlikely.

Also, I have been showing proof there's no terps and it's mineral oil for a long time now. But TT hasn't given a darn. It's clear they didn't (and seemingly don't) care that people are vaping mineral oil! They should have issued a stop sale and alerted EVERY customer if they actually cared. Just like a company that produces food items. And they should have taken random samples from their stock and gotten them tested by a few different labs the day after I posted. But they didn't, did they?

What did they do? They posted here denying it all, calling me names, and doing everything they can to say I'm wrong. That's what they did. And for that, SHAME ON THEM!

They didn't even post about their "investigation" until I posted another test (which found the same thing as the first two labs). More than 30 days. Which clearly shows they don't care at all about their customers vaping mineral oil, and only care about the effect on their brand when people find out.

Even if they are very bad at QC and ignorant, and if it was all the fault of their supplier (which I don't believe for a second), they didn't lift a finger to make sure they weren't inadvertently poisoning people. That to me is almost as bad as selling mineral oil and calling it terps. In either case TT is at fault and IMO should never be trusted for any product.

Future4200 said:

I have in my posession, a bottle of TT Viscosity that I was given when they first released the product. The seal is broken and their is no batch number on the bottle, but TT has offered to pay for the lab testing of this bottle I have (We recognize this isn't perfect and has all sorts of flaws, but its a step in the right direction).

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I wouldn't call it a step in the right direction except for them paying. If you carry out your plan the results are worthless. Here's what would be legit:

* Have someone buy a bottle from TT now, without TT knowing about it.
* When you get the bottle don't open it and send it to a lab without allowing TT to dictate where you send it. Or better yet, send it to one of the labs I listed. Don't send it to some cannabis lab to test terps, they are far too limited.
* After testing is completed, share the site login with me or a trusted third party we agree on so we can see the results on the web site (to make sure TT doesn't alter them).

Future4200 said:

If anyone has any other suggestions of how I might be able to help clear this up, I am all ears.

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They only thing I'd suggest is testing how I described, not what you have planned.

I'm very impressed you stopped by and are willing to do testing. But anything short of the testing I described won't help TT's case and won't prove a thing.

What will do if your test comes back with no terps and mineral oil? And what will you do if the two ICmag members who are sending in samples come back as no terps but with mineral oil? Will you stand by TT still?


Finally, I will repost the directions I wrote to testing Viscosity so you have them handy.

Now, Gray Wolf - on the other hand - is an ICmag member I TRUST.

Thank you, sir, for once again, getting down to the bottom of something.

I'm generally on the fence about many new techs until they have gone through a testing phase by the early adapters and eventually there is someone who comes along and explains it and how to do it. Then, it's usually shown it's not the best option and needs more refinement - insert vacuum ovens for BHO - and I think this is the same thing happening with a new round of products.

I tend to put more trust in the community, even with the veil of anonymity, than I do a business. Think about Big Mike and Advanced Nutrients and how that went when the online community picked apart every ingredient in his formulations...

New products, SHOULD be raked over the coals by the community. Just my opinion. I also think part of having an unbiased review, is giving full disclosure. Greywolf and Future have both explained their potential biases and I respect that and can in good faith issue a waiver.

@future if going to include an open bottle from their original release, I have to ask why it was never used. To be fair, that bottle being open, doesn't met the criteria that TT set for a lab sample to be considered valid. Given that stipulation, to remove any bias, you should also test a current market product that is sealed.

I appreciate everyone stepping forward to put a product, which I've been on the fence about, under the microscope. The vape pens are extremely convenient, but I like to make my own, with my own, at every bend in the road. It'd be nice to open myself to an entirely new market segment and usage mechanism, but to do so with full confidence.

Still on the fence. Still watching.



dank.Frank

Glad to hear from you Gray Wolf, its been some time.

Extractninja, will do. I'll have a buddy order a bottle right now.

Gray Wolf said:

Two questions, what and why???

Hello Future4200 Dustinsan! I've been watching this thread and purposefully staying arms length, but perhaps I can add another layer.

For instance I notice both opponents joined about the same time, but suggest that we all look at posts by both, to see how evenly balanced their posts are, as a measure of purpose and intent joining.

IE: Why are they on this forum?

We know who the company TT is, what they sell, and what they are here to defend, but who is Ninjasan, what are his affiliations, and intent?

Clearly not an advocate for TT, but consider TT's competitors, and whom it conceivably could be???????????

Ninjasan, may we better understand who you are?? What is your interest and agenda?

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Hi there. I have read what you've written for years and benefited from your efforts. NIce to meet you.

I already wrote why I am posting this. I find it morally offensive TT is selling mineral oil and calling them terps. It started out as curiosity and I was totally surprised when the lab found no terps but did find mineral oil. I was so surprised I didn't believe the first lab, so I send a brand new sample to one of the world's best essential oil labs, who also found no terps but did find mineral oil.

When TT straight up lied and acted the way they acted, it turned from curiosity into a mission. Someone needs to call them out and stand up for the people who don't know they're vaping mineral oil.

Gray Wolf said:

I haven't a clue who owns TT, and have no personal association, though did check them out with one of their chief competitors, with whom I have a personal relationship, and whom regularly checks their competitors products in their labs with GC/HPLC/MS.

They said that TT was a reputable competitor, whom strived for quality , but whom might conceivably fuxx up out of inexperience, though in their opinion would not knowingly grievously sin.

That doesn't excuse the possibility that they may have sinned grievously out of ignorance or ineffective QC, as well as the "remote" possibility that the aggrieved, has an ax or commercial interest to grind.

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That's great, but that doesn't mean anything. That's just some company giving you their opinion. And they are not even considering TT is just lying?

This thread is based on facts. Provable, repeatable facts. Unless they have tested Viscosity for constituents identification their opinion is just that, an opinion.

Gray Wolf said:

Soooo, the suggestion......... Lot's of money being waved around to cover costs, so if someone pays for a lab acceptable to both parties, and I can have a list of companies distributing the TT product, I will select and pay for a random sample from one of those locations ,and take it to the agreed upon lab with custody papers and seal intact.

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Deal! I'll pay for two tests, assuming I'm already paying for the test by Old Gold and F. Dupp. However, if F. Dupp doesn't end up following through, I'll pay for 3 tests.

Here's where you can find all TT stores: https://buy-terpenes.com/store-locations/

Oh wait, that link isn't working. I will send you a private message.

I'm ready to go tomorrow!

Gray Wolf said:

That would give us a comparison of Future 4200's broken seal sample and TT's current off the shelf distribution.

That resolves the issue of content, though not any issues resolving subcontractors and vendors.

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Gray Wolf said:

Take into consideration that I acknowledge that I am friends with TT's competitor, but will strive to remain professionally neutral, as I have no other agenda or interest.

Dustin has acknowledged that he is friends with TT, but has an old opened sample for testing, and whom I believe will strive to remain professionally neutral.

That should balance perfect, as we have Ninjasan, whom is at least TT's adversary, if not competitor, guarding the hen house.

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Future4200 said:

Glad to hear from you Gray Wolf, its been some time.

Extractninja, will do. I'll have a buddy order a bottle right now.

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Great!

To recap for those reading:

* I have gotten 3 lab tests done at 3 different labs the specialize in essential oil and terpene testing. All three labs found zero terps but did find mineral oil and some heavy nonviolate substance they couldn't identify (but they ruled out being terpenes).
* I am getting a 4th test done
* Old Gold is getting it tested and I'm paying
* (the famous) Gray Wolf is getting at least one sample and I will offer to pay for testing
* Future (also very well known and respected by many people) is getting some and TT is going to pay for testing (but TT isn't allowed to choose the lab or edit the results)
* The_Goods over at Future's web site I was told is going to get some tested as well.
* F Dupp may get his tested and I am offering to pay

That will be at least 7 lab tests of Viscosity. Four by me. Some by the 3rd parties Old Gold, Gray Wolf (who is associated with a competitor of TT), F. Dupp, and The_Goods, and one by Future (who has financial and personal ties to TT).

Thus far 3 out of 3 (100%) lab tests from 3 different lots found zero terps in Viscosity, but did find mineral oil and some heavy nonvoliate substance (that isn't terps).

Thank you for taking the unpopular route and sticking to your guns, extractninja. I hope beyond hope all issues are discovered and resolved. I hate to think of all the med patients and recreational herb smokers inhaling something toxic when all they are trying to do is improve the quality of their existence.



dank.Frank

dank.frank said:

Thank you for taking the unpopular route and sticking to your guns, extractninja. I hope beyond hope are issues is discovered and resolved. I hate to think of all the med patients and recreational herb smokers inhaling something toxic when all they are trying to do is improve the quality of their existence.

dank.Frank

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Me too. I would be happy if I was proven wrong.

This post is for the people getting Viscosity tested. It's just a repost of some I wrote the other day:

I am willing to pay for up to 3 GC-MS lab tests of UNOPENED Viscosity sent in to labs by ICMAG members who have at least 100 posts and have been a member for at least 1 year. That's to make sure it's not TT sending in a fake sample. They will have to promise to post the results here.

I would appreciate a picture of the bottle, it's protective plastic cover in place, and lot number visible. I didn't do this to protect my identity, and if the same concern is expressed I wouldn't require the pictures from others.

Here's a list of some labs to choose from, and this is not limited to the US. Feel free to choose a different lab as along as its legit, however, I would have final say:
* Essential Oil University
* Eruofins
* Aromatic Plant Research Center
* Essential Oil Analysis Foundation
* Florihana
* ABP
* etc.

When communicating with the lab make sure to ask for a compositional analysis (to identify all chromatogram peaks). Mention Viscosity is suspected of having no teprenes, and instead containing mineral oil and some heavy, non-volatile substance. Make sure they can identify mineral oil. Make sure they look for squalene and its derivatives, the types of terpenes that the grape vine says is used in Viscosity (it hasn't been found in any of the tests I've had done thus far).

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ExtractNinja said:

Me too. I would be happy if I was proven wrong.

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1000% agree. I won't even call you names or like you any less because of it.

It's okay to be wrong as long as people own it when they are. I revel in my failures as much as I do my successes. Both are equally a part of what has made me who I am.

I'd rather fess up and take the beating, then squash it because everything is on the table, than take the long road, constantly trying to pass the buck, to save face.

Regardless the outcome of this thread - I'll admit, my initial impression of TT isn't positive at this point. A lot of what feels like very circular reasoning being presented and asking us to be critical of anyone just because they are critical of you, stinks in ways I can't explain after too many years on forums.

I'm with you, Ninja, ultimately, I guess. I want you to be wrong, BUT, much like yourself, I want the data and the proof and the explanation. I don't want to shrug and then have to go with "I guess" at the end of the day, or else this thread becomes pointless. I want a true conclusion that leaves zero room for deviations. (including product recall and liability - which was never a reality in a black market. People voted for legalization, now they need to step up and jump through all the regulatory hoops, and that means having a true, in house, QC program for every lot. They also need to be held liable when necessary. This is the nature of a legal market and TT should expect to play ball under the rules, which they agreed to when they stepped onto the field.)

The thing is, just because people aren't posting a response to the thread, people are reading it and taking notice. A buddy who only visits the forum every couple of months and I discussed this very issue in person.

ICmag has ALWAYS had global market impact. True Terps would absolutely have engaged in fiduciary negligence for not treating it like their entire business model depends on it.

Legal Market just doesn't know the impact that exists with those in the black market. Remember, we CREATED this monster without the benefit of a legal regulatory framework (cushion) and STILL managed to make sure no one died from what we grew.

There is literally no excuse to poison people. Zero.



dank.Frank