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Spain is another harbringer but we still will not see...

To Die in Madrid
The nutty logic that says Spain provoked Islamist terrorism.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, March 15, 2004, at 12:28 PM PT

I can remember when I was a bit of an ETA fan myself. It was in 1975, when a group of Basque militants assassinated Adm. Carrero Blanco. The admiral was a stone-faced secret police chief, personally groomed to be the successor to the decrepit Francisco Franco. His car blew up, killing only him and his chauffeur with a carefully planted charge, and not only was the world well rid of another fascist, but, more important, the whole scheme of extending Franco's rule was vaporized in the same instant. The dictator had to turn instead to Crown Prince Juan Carlos, who turned out to be the best Bourbon in history and who swiftly dismantled Franco's entire system. If this action was "terrorism," it had something to be said for it. Everyone I knew in Spain made a little holiday in their hearts when the gruesome admiral went sky-high.

The Basque country, with its historic capital in Guernica, had been one of the main battlegrounds against Hitler and Mussolini in their first joint aggression in Spain, and many European families adopted Basque orphans and raised money for the resistance. It is tedious to relate the story of ETA's degeneration into a gangster organization that itself proclaims a fascist ideology of Basque racial uniqueness, and anyway one doesn't need to bother, since nobody any longer argues that there is a "root cause" of ETA's atrocities. In the face of this kind of subhuman nihilism, people know without having to be told that the only response is a quiet, steady hatred and contempt, and a cold determination to outlast the perpetrators while remorselessly tracking them down.

However, it seems that some Spaniards, and some non-Spanish commentators, would change on a dime if last week's mass murder in Madrid could be attributed to the Bin-Ladenists. In that case not only would there be a root cause—the deployment of 1,300 Spanish soldiers in the reconstruction of Iraq—but there would also be a culpable person, namely Spain's retiring prime minister. By this logic, terrorism would also have a cure—the withdrawal of those Spanish soldiers from a country where al-Qaida emphatically does not desire them to be.

Try not to laugh or cry, but some spokesmen of the Spanish left have publicly proposed exactly this syllogism. I wonder if I am insulting the readers of Slate if I point out its logical and moral deficiencies:

Many Spaniards were among those killed recently in Morocco, where a jihadist bomb attack on an ancient Moorish synagogue took place in broad daylight. The attack was on Morocco itself, which was neutral in the recent Iraq war. It seems a bit late to demand that the Moroccan government change sides and support Saddam Hussein in that conflict, and I suspect that the Spanish Communist and socialist leadership would feel a little sheepish in making this suggestion. Nor is it obvious to me that the local Moroccan jihadists would stop bombing if this concession were made. Still, such a concession would be consistent with the above syllogism, as presumably would be a demand that Morocco cease to tempt fate by allowing synagogues on its soil in the first place.

The Turkish government, too, should be condemned for allowing its Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan to visit the shattered synagogue in Istanbul after the latest mass murder (thus becoming, incidentally, the first Turkish prime minister ever to do so). Erdogan is also the first prime minister ever to be elected on an Islamist ticket. Clearly, he was asking for trouble and has not yet understood al-Qaida's conditions for being allowed to lead a quiet life. Not that he hadn't tried—he prevented the U.S. Army from approaching Baghdad through what is now known as the Sunni Triangle. He just hasn't tried hard enough.

It cannot be very long now before some slaughter occurs on the streets of London or Rome or Warsaw, as punishment for British and Italian and Polish membership of the anti-Saddam coalition. But perhaps there is still time to avoid the wrath to come. If British and Italian and Polish troops make haste to leave the Iraqis to their own "devices" (of the sort that exploded outside the mosques of Karbala and Najaf last month), their civilian cousins may still hope to escape the stern disapproval of the holy warriors. Don't ask why the holy warriors blow up mosques by the way—it's none of your goddam crusader-Jew business.

The other countries of NATO, which has now collectively adopted the responsibility for Afghanistan, should reconsider. As long as their forces remain on the soil of that country, they are liable to attract the sacred rage of the Muslim fighters. It will not be enough for Germany and France to have stayed out of Iraq. They cannot expect to escape judgment by such hypocritical means.

French schools should make all haste to permit not just the veil but the burqa, as well as to segregate swimming pools and playgrounds. Do they suppose that they deceive anybody when they temporize about God's evident will? Bombings will follow this blasphemy, as the night succeeds the day. It is written.

I find I can't quite decide what to recommend in the American case. I thought it was a good idea to remove troops from Saudi Arabia in any event (after all, we had removed the chief regional invader). But, even with the troops mainly departed, bombs continue to detonate in Saudi streets. We are, it seems, so far gone in sin and decadence that no repentance or penitence can be adequate. Perhaps, for the moment, it's enough punishment, and enough shame, just to know that what occurred in Madrid last week is all our fault. Now, let that sink in.

Christopher Hitchens

http://slate.msn.com/id/2097138/


I said it before, I'll say it again about European governments: Get your heads out of the sand before it's too late. But....it's already too late.
 

ken

Member
so what's your solution, kill all muslims?

would have to kill em all, cus any left are gonna get real pissed ...
 
That's not what I'm saying, thinking or even subject to entertaining. What I am saying is that most think this is a Western-only instigated war and that it began on 9/11.
That's not the case.
Nor is it the case that if "we" left off of "them" that the hostilities would end.

Further, it discounts entirely the animosity for America, the West and the infidel Jews and Christians (also included; socialists, communists and the other assorted godless) that is fomented and bred in a closed, heated environment.

Islamic fundamentalists and current Arab leaders, Israeli leaders and American leaders are stoking the fires that are burning anyway. The Europeans seem to think that staying out of the marshmallow toasting will somehow leave them immune from the burn.

I say it's not so. But time will bear it out for us.
 
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ken

Member
i say you should stop stoking the fire & look for a real peaceful solution to the isreal / palestine problem, instead of funding isreals military.

maybe you could declare war on less muslim nations too.

then the terrorists would have many less angry/desparate/stupid muslims to recruit from.
 

BushyOldGrower

Bubblegum Specialist
Veteran
I will probably want my own thread but

I will probably want my own thread but

I wanted to talk about ramifications of this Spanish 911 as they are calling it and even European 911 too.

Will England be attacked next as one of our (usa) staunchest allies too? :eek:

I understand the reservations about Iraq as that was stupid but there is a real war and America and Europe do share a common enemy.

Can you imagine everyone blaming Bush and the USA for attacks on their lands? This may not be fair but when Bush took the strong arm way he asked for support.

Did the terrorists change the outcome of the spanish election or was that not true? Were the conservatives really going to cruise to an easy win as some say? If so this is something to think on.

Most Spanish folks didnt support the way the iraq war was done but their govt supported and took part in Bush's war for oil. Would they really have re-elected that corrupt govt of conservatives? I want to know the truth.

If the terrorists find that most people in England dont support the Iraq war now don't you think England is the next logical target?

I am not happy about where I am going. If everyone blames America for attacks by Al Qaeda then we are all fucked. United we stand and divided we fall. Iraq divided us and now perhaps Europe needs to take over the leadership of the entire war on terror and the iraq situation.

Blair is a labor party guy who went along with Bush. Will the brits elect a conservative govt that would also support Bush? I think not but pressure will make Blair change his stand if Britian is hit as hard as Spain just was.

I think America better protect its allies because we fanned the flames instead of finding peace after afghanistan. Now there is some responcibility to also defend our allies under this circumstance IMHO. Do you think we can do that? I don't.

Europe has all the easy targets. BOG :(
 
i say you should stop stoking the fire & look for a real peaceful solution to the isreal / palestine problem, instead of funding isreals military.

maybe you could declare war on less muslim nations too.
Because that would solve the whole shebang, so to speak?

The notion is laughable. The Israel/Palestine argument is a canard. Al Qaeda did not attack the US for its support of Israel.
That claim only came later, when it suited the jihadist recruiters as it's a situation Muslims feel more than most issues (even those who have no point of reference other than the propaganda emitted from select Mezzuin's) and is ripe for exploitation.

Same as the exploitation of Bush's message to fundamentalist Christian policy-makers and pastors...who in turn pass it on to their flock or Limbaugh-ites.

That said, the Palestine/Israel issue should be settled amicably, fairly and paying attention to both sides needs and fears. The issues you raise - support for Israel, Israeli military might vs. the Palestinian lack thereof, justified settlement and fair play especially from those in a position to effect change - are important and your end quest is the goal.
But they were separate issues entirely and Al Qaeda (now) and the world at large seek to make it a connective issue. It's not only America that is making this an all-encompassing crusade.
 

BushyOldGrower

Bubblegum Specialist
Veteran
No, it isn't all of America just some

No, it isn't all of America just some

Give me a break mon. We have this puppet neo-con making a law enforcement problem into a world war.

He wasn't legit in the election so don't blame most americans who voted for Gore. Now we want this guy gone as much as the rest of you who see him as many of us americans do. BOG :)

57nazibushpic.jpg



We are responcible for our leaders but we need a fair election. Can the UN help us have a fair election this time?
 
Al Qaeda does not consider most of the Muslims to be real Muslims. Al Qaeda's view of the world is that if you do not think exactly as they do, you are an infidel and need to die. Please note they did attack Morroco, which is generally considered to be a Muslim nation.
 
Give me a break mon. We have this puppet neo-con making a law enforcement problem into a world war.

BOG, I thought we were done with Police Actions with Vientnam ;)

They chose this war same as us. Their blow was chosen as Sept. 11th, though it was by no means their first shot. It was a FBI problem until it came from Afghanistan's Taliban government's condonation (state sponsor) of Al Qaeda's operations a few years back.
You can't apprehend if the patron isn't willing to dish up the fugitive.

Neocon strategy was just that: strategy. Unless it can be proven that these same neocons induced this war that was begun 10+ years ago ("battles" have only gotten larger) it should not be claimed that this is their brainchild.
If you read it, they needed an excuse to remake the middle east - as it was just an idea among many - and Al Qaeda and Saddam were only too willing to provide the catalyst. Well, Al Qaeda for sure...Bush obviously roped-the-dope with Saddam (or used that rope to hang himself).

Good chatting. :)
 
like Bush....

like Bush....

''Al Qaeda does not consider most of the Muslims to be real Muslims. Al Qaeda's view of the world is that if you do not think exactly as they do, you are an infidel and need to die. Please note they did attack Morroco, which is generally considered to be a Muslim nation.''

The Bush administration holds similar stands towards non muslim people...
I can remember Bush stating that those who were not with the US, are against them, which made my chicken shit government go to Iraq with the US.....
Bush is an ex-alcoholic and an ex-cokesnorter, who is now addicted to power, world power.

I feel sorry for anyone sharing his views on today's world.

Bush also threatened to invade the Netherlands, in case an American soldier would be taken to the special Court on War Crimes in The Hague, what a pal!!!
 
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