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Tending Your Reservoir for a Full pH Swing and Cleaner Cannabis

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
So who used to use a steady pH and now uses a swing? What were your experiences? (Thanks, Dropped Cat, for bringing it up)


Frankly, I started using a natural pH swing in hydro having learned from Lucas. I've watched other people struggle with hydro for years, mainly due to pH. So, I'm interested in hearing more about the other side, those who struggled and then switched like Dropped Cat :)
 

Hydro8

Member
So who used to use a steady pH and now uses a swing? What were your experiences?


When I first started doing hydro I had 5.8 in my head and would try to adjust the PH every day. Then I started reading more about it and learned that a PH swing is a good thing and 5.5-6.5 is a good place.

I change my water/nutes every week and keep PPMs about 700, it is very stable. My water is about 8 out of the tap I mix nutes and it is about 7 then I drop it down to 6.3PH the PH will usually drop a bit in 24hrs, I add fresh 6.3PH and it stays about 6.2-5.9 + or - a tad.

It is easy and mindless now that I stopped chasing PH. Also buying a better quality PH pen, for a while I was using $8. Amazon pens that would go out of wack so I would be chasing PH with a broken pen.
 

Hydro8

Member
That's a rather small swing. What type of hydro are you running, roots-in or roots-out?

It is RDWC. Roots in 5gal buckets.

My system tends to drop PH then I pour the higher PH water/nutes in for the daily water which brings it back up. It just works out well that way with my higher PH water.

If I keep the water/nutes longer then 7days I get bigger swings down where the fresh water will not keep up. I usually take the bigger drop as the plants looking for food.

Do you get bigger swings when nutes start to get depleted ?
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Swing speed depends on plant size, numbers, light wattage and nutrient solution volume. The easiest way to increase swing time is to use a larger volume of solution, with a smaller volume of solution increasing the speed. Without hitting the lower 5.3-4 range of the pH swing, your plants are not getting the full absorption of all elements properly. When you work this into your method, you'll see a lowered need for nutrient strength and a higher end quality. :)

I use r/o, like I described. The pH swing is completely different, it rises as the plants use the nutrients. I don't do res changes at all, not until 5 days before harvest and that's only to switch out the nutrient solution for pure r/o, non-pH'd. The pH is rock solid and predictable in how long it takes to rise. Unless you're using r/o, I really have no idea how to advise you on your situation. It's one of the key reasons I also strongly recommend r/o, the pH works the same way for everyone.
 

DiverDave

Active member
Thank you for the info , I have sub to this topic and taken notes.
My next grow is planned for DWR hydro , I have not been happy with
in door soil.
And have contemplated hydro for awhile.
I have been reading about people using r/o for their water and it makes sense
for just a consistency in runs.

Again thank you for the ride .. I hope to keep learning from this site.
 

Hydro8

Member
I use r/o, like I described. The pH swing is completely different, it rises as the plants use the nutrients. I don't do res changes at all, not until 5 days before harvest and that's only to switch out the nutrient solution for pure r/o, non-pH'd. The pH is rock solid and predictable in how long it takes to rise. Unless you're using r/o, I really have no idea how to advise you on your situation. It's one of the key reasons I also strongly recommend r/o, the pH works the same way for everyone.


I use the KISS(Keep it Super Simple) for all my stuff and life r/o water doesn't fit into that. I guess my PH swings are small compared to many. I really like keeping fresh nutes in my system, it keeps the ppms and PH stable and easy. I also have unlimited supply of nutes so it is basically free for me to keep it fresh.

Sometime if my environment changes I will play with bigger swings, my grows really are designed from what is at hand and what is simple. RDWC, free nutes and a couple of drops of PH-down is so simple it feels like cheating.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Yes, the small pH swing is limiting your plants. I fully understand working with what you have though. Looking forward to seeing your progress the next few years. :)
 

Hydro8

Member
Yes, the small pH swing is limiting your plants. I fully understand working with what you have though. Looking forward to seeing your progress the next few years. :)


That is debatable. I haven't seen any evidence that small swing is limiting plants vs big swing.

I would like to see evidence if you have some.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
That is debatable. I haven't seen any evidence that small swing is limiting plants vs big swing.

I would like to see evidence if you have some.


This is 700ppm, 19 days into flower. With a partial swing you would see deficiencies. With a smaller swing you would need to feed at a higher strength to keep the deficiencies from showing. Cannabis packs on the excess and degrades quality all through flower this way.



I suggest you try it for yourself at least once. :)
 

Hydro8

Member
View Image

This is 700ppm, 19 days into flower. With a partial swing you would see deficiencies. With a smaller swing you would need to feed at a higher strength to keep the deficiencies from showing. Cannabis packs on the excess and degrades quality all through flower this way.



I suggest you try it for yourself at least once. :)


To say that someones grow is “limited” because they don't use your methods is a pretty bold statement. It should be backed up by more then look at my plant.

Old nutes are depleted and I think that is where you big swings are coming from. If I don't change my nutes I start to get big swings I take that as it's time to change the nutes.

The majority of hydro growers do not like big swings(bigger then 5.5-6.5) and associate them with problems(Like depleted nutes). Most all major hydro nutrient producers and distributors in the industry highly recommend changing nutes weekly.

Everyone has their methods. Your methods are different and counter to many, so when you call others sub par because they are not following yours is inviting debate I was hoping to see more then a plant pic.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
To say that someones grow is “limited” because they don't use your methods is a pretty bold statement. It should be backed up by more then look at my plant.
It's a proven hydroponic principle. Look at the absorption rates for specific elements on any hydro chart and it's plain as day.
I'm not bashing you or your method, I'm pointing out facts which don't care about our opinions.

nutes are depleted and I think that is where you big swings are coming from. If I don't change my nutes I start to get big swings I take that as it's time to change the nutes.
This has a lot to do with your tap water. As I mentioned previously, I have no experience with your specific tap-water buffering response.

The majority of hydro growers do not like big swings(bigger then 5.5-6.5) and associate them with problems(Like depleted nutes).
I understand this completely. IMO, the majority of hydro growers are also producing a highly inferior product. Just my opinion from sampling from many, many growers, across multiple states, for 30 years.

This is the main reason I'm working on spreading info which has worked awesomely for growers for over 20 years now. This is not "my" information, I originally learned it from others over 15 years ago.

Most all major hydro nutrient producers and distributors in the industry highly recommend changing nutes weekly.
Also very true. They're in the business of selling nutrients and changing nutes regularly accomplishes two goals for them. One it makes for better results with inexperienced growers. Two, it sells more nutrients. A major downside is the excessive amount of nutes people waste, instead of putting the solution in gardens.

Everyone has their methods. Your methods are different and counter to many, so when you call others sub par because they are not following yours is inviting debate I was hoping to see more then a plant pic.
Are you here to learn what I'm teaching? Not to be rude, but this is not a debate thread. This is an educational and show what your experiences were like, thread. Yes, I disagree with the status quo, just like I disagree with the low quality of the status quo. My goal is to improve the status quo. I would love to have you, and any growers looking for higher quality, to employ and love this information as much as I do.

:tiphat:
 

Hydro8

Member
Are you here to learn what I'm teaching? Not to be rude, but this is not a debate thread. This is an educational and show what your experiences were like, thread. Yes, I disagree with the status quo, just like I disagree with the low quality of the status quo. My goal is to improve the status quo. I would love to have you, and any growers looking for higher quality, to employ and love this information as much as I do.


I stopped by because you do have some interesting info, techniques and theories. Great material for discussion.

I am not interested in a _ Come sit at the masters feet thread. I am not here to stroke egos.

Good luck, carry on.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
LOL. Cute. I'm here to discuss a proven method of cultivation, developed by others over 20 years ago. I claim no master status, only 15 years of experience with it. I learn daily, even after all these years, because I'm acutely aware of how little I know.


Thanks for stopping by. :)
 

Cvh

Well-known member
Supermod
Very true about the pH swing. When I was still growing synthetically in Coco I noticed it too.
Thanks for sharing the wisdom D.C.
 

Bobby Boucher

Active member
So who used to use a steady pH and now uses a swing? What were your experiences? (Thanks, Dropped Cat, for bringing it up)

I hardly care to elaborate on my ph experiences, being that I've already inundated the threads over the years to no avail, and I'm sure most of you are familiar with the schpiel anyways are are tired of hearing about it, but I will add that I've tried forcing the swing utilizing a ph controller every which way and did not get any noticeable improvement in quality and have since reverted back and set my controller to a steady 5.8. So, IME, a swing should occur naturally, and trying to manipulate it otherwise is really just a bandaid solution for a greater problem.

Now. The best smoke I've ever seen and will likely ever see is consistantly grown utilizing the same methods douglas is describing (along with a little super thrive and hygrozyme), however, there seems to exist a minority of people who can't seem to get it right, and the culprit almost always seems to be a sinking PH.

So.. all the obvious causes for ph fluctuation have been covered here very well.. but what about the not so obvious? Viruses? Light stresses? Improper day and night humidity fluctuations? Imbalanced positive and negative ions for a particular strain etc?

I'm not sure what I'm expecting from this post tbh. I'm getting some bad dejavu so, I digest... Poor ol' horsey...
 

hyposomniac

Active member
It's a proven hydroponic principle. Look at the absorption rates for specific elements on any hydro chart and it's plain as day.
I'm not bashing you or your method, I'm pointing out facts which don't care about our opinions.

Hi Douglas,
Not here to stir you up, but a couple things need addressing.

Re: these hydro charts,
I would very much like to see a definitive one, with scientific reference.
As far as I can tell, they are all derivative of one another with minor arbitrary changes and no reference to how it was decided.
Also many of them show brick walls at the absorption limits, vs a few that show a tapered line of lowered absorption.
If you're going to call these charts your facts, then we should have a proper reference chart.

And sorry, but you can't decide that a public post is not for debate. If you make claims, some will challenge them; if your theories are sound, you can defend them.
 

Absolem

Active member
Hi Douglas,
Not here to stir you up, but a couple things need addressing.

Re: these hydro charts,
I would very much like to see a definitive one, with scientific reference.
As far as I can tell, they are all derivative of one another with minor arbitrary changes and no reference to how it was decided.
Also many of them show brick walls at the absorption limits, vs a few that show a tapered line of lowered absorption.
If you're going to call these charts your facts, then we should have a proper reference chart.

And sorry, but you can't decide that a public post is not for debate. If you make claims, some will challenge them; if your theories are sound, you can defend them.


The pH charts posted by DC have been the scientific model for many years. Used throughout the Ag community and and the USDA.

This link might help.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_053293.pdf
 

St. Phatty

Active member
I alternate watering with a full strength compost tea, and then with a clear water watering.

It's partly a result of time management - some days if they're going to get watered, it's got to be clear water. No time to mix the tea properly.

I have a feeling that that "pulsing" of nutrient strength (which also correlates to changes in pH) is somehow welcomed by the plants, whether it's Cannabis or another plant.
 
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