Sorry, no clue! We can't sell any cannabis products in Oregon.
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THC Acetate
- Thread starter Gray Wolf
- Start date
Sorry, no clue! We can't sell any cannabis products in Oregon.
Waxmasta Flex
Member
right, and your not a patient buying acetate either..i was merely asking hypothetically as a patient IF you were in say CA and and you knew what u knew, and you wanted to get some in CA, what would you feel is a fair donation for say a gram...(keeping in mind that pure og wax can sell for up to 90-100gr retail) or if u even wanted to just say "retail value" surely you can approximate that? I realize you DONT sell any mmj products tho..
thnx
Actually, I'm not trying to be coy. I actually don't have a clue because not only have I never tried to sell any, I don't know of anyone who has.
Some of our patients have said that they've paid $40 a gram for oil, and it wipes out the better part of a day making acetate, so 20 grams divided by 8 hours equals .4 hours per gram. At $100/hr labor, labor would be about $40 a gram.
Production costs are minimal, so $80/85 gram would no doubt sell as fast as wax at that price, and of course will actually fetch what ever the market will bear, because it is good and a rarity at the moment.
Some of our patients have said that they've paid $40 a gram for oil, and it wipes out the better part of a day making acetate, so 20 grams divided by 8 hours equals .4 hours per gram. At $100/hr labor, labor would be about $40 a gram.
Production costs are minimal, so $80/85 gram would no doubt sell as fast as wax at that price, and of course will actually fetch what ever the market will bear, because it is good and a rarity at the moment.
Olifant
Member
Waxmasta, I don't disagree about the informational aspect, this has been a recipe marketed to stoners for 40 years. I do disagree about the intellectual bar required to obtain acetic anhydride. I know two online shopping cart stores that will sell it to anyone no questions asked and no business acct required (note to general public dont pm me for the sources), and theyre suppliers i've used before. I wouldnt have that aspect any other way, the few chemical suppliers who supply to hobby chemists and have resisted DEA harrassment are valuable and dying off and I'm very happy these guys remain. Also granted this is a simple esterification using techniques over a century old. However, what I don't like about this is that chemistry performed on impure plant products (no offense to your technique gray wold as it is certainly solid) becomes incredibly complex and I question the value of what exactly is being learned here without any sort of analytical testing, without knowing exactly what reaction products have been created. Perhaps someone will repeat the experiment with a charcoal filtered (to prevent degradation) and vacuum fractionated under inert atmosphere oil to rule out the production of some of the more active CBN analogs. This is I see as the next step in understanding what is happening without doing a full analytical workup. I only have the most basic NMR reading abilities so I wouldnt be of much use in analytical work.
With the market flood in Cali, I'm seeing only crumble waxes in the 85-88% purity and the distilled (and fully decarboxylated as a result meaning you arent paying for the 15% weight addition of the formic acid moiety in THCA) co2 extract pure gold brand oils selling for that. This year in cali it seems the market is less impressed with subjective effect and full glass consistency and just worried about the numbers. 75% totally solid Black glass is proving really hard to move surprisingly.
With the market flood in Cali, I'm seeing only crumble waxes in the 85-88% purity and the distilled (and fully decarboxylated as a result meaning you arent paying for the 15% weight addition of the formic acid moiety in THCA) co2 extract pure gold brand oils selling for that. This year in cali it seems the market is less impressed with subjective effect and full glass consistency and just worried about the numbers. 75% totally solid Black glass is proving really hard to move surprisingly.
after being on this site , +and on skunk pharm , may I suggest that Grey Wolf write the 2013 cannabis alchemy revised addition, I know I would buy 1 , and alot of others would too , good thread GW
TS
TS
Thanks for the good thoughts bro!
Trying to provide the same information for free on our site but will some day do a book, unless I die first.
Old age isn't a pretty thang.
Waxmasta Flex
Member
REALLY TRIP STUFF...SWIM ENDED UP DOIN 120/GR METHINX..ONE THING I REALLY LIKE IS ITS SOOOOOOOO SMOOTH..EASILY THE SMOOTHEST ON THROAT IVE EVER DABBED TIMES 10...IT DOESNT FEEL LIKE UR GETTING A HIT UNTIL U REACH MAX EXPANSION CAP...LOL..TASTE AT FIRST IS A LIL CHEM, BUT HEN SMOOTHS OUT TO A REALLY NICE CHOCO HASH FLAVE...ONLY HEAD EYE...PERIOD..BEHIND UR EYES..AFTER A FEW DABS @ CANNABIS CUP (FELT KINDA COOL TO HAVE SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN THE MILLION PEOPLE SLINGING THEIR WAXES LOL, DOUBT ANYONE ELSE HAD THA ACE OF SPADES) I WAS LIKE GEEKED..REALLY INTROSPECTIVE HIGH..PATIENT STATED MIX A TAD W ANY DAB TO SET IT RIGHT OFF..SOUNDS COOL TO ME..THIS WAS MADE W 65% ISH OUTDOOR FLOWER WAX..NOT THE BEST..NEXT TIME IT WILL B DONE W REAL SHIT N BETTER CHEMS...
@ OLIPHANT
WHAT I MEANT MORE RE THE ISSUE OF STONERS ORDERING CHEMS U MENTIONED,(WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY ACCURATE AS SWIM WAS ABLE TO EASILY PROCURE NEEDED INGREDIENTS) I MEANT MORE LIKE..MOST PEOPLE WONT HAVE THE GUMPTION OR EVEN THE IDEA TO WANT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS...AND IF THEYRE READING ABOUT IT, AND ARE INTERESTED AND THINK THEY CAN PULL IT OFF AFTER READING IT ALL, AND THEN THEY WANNA ORDER, MORE LIKELY THAN NOT, THEY ARE INTEL ENUFF TO REALIZE THE SCOPE OF WHAT THEYRE DOING... I MEAN IM PRETTY FUCKIN SMART, AND I KNOW UNEQUIVOCALLY I WOULDNT TRY N MAKE IT MYSELF..SO YEA, UR RIGHT ANY DIPSHIT CAN ORDER CHEMS, BUT YOU HAVE TO GET PRETTY INTO IT TO EVEN KNOW WHAT UR LOOKING FOR ETC, AND I JUST DONT THINK SOMEONE THATS A BIG ENUFF MORON TO HURT THEMSELVES TRYING, WOULD EVEN BE TRYING TO MAKE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE...THEYD PROB B CONTENT W THEUR SHITTY WEED AND VIDEO GAMES...IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE???
@ OLIPHANT
WHAT I MEANT MORE RE THE ISSUE OF STONERS ORDERING CHEMS U MENTIONED,(WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY ACCURATE AS SWIM WAS ABLE TO EASILY PROCURE NEEDED INGREDIENTS) I MEANT MORE LIKE..MOST PEOPLE WONT HAVE THE GUMPTION OR EVEN THE IDEA TO WANT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS...AND IF THEYRE READING ABOUT IT, AND ARE INTERESTED AND THINK THEY CAN PULL IT OFF AFTER READING IT ALL, AND THEN THEY WANNA ORDER, MORE LIKELY THAN NOT, THEY ARE INTEL ENUFF TO REALIZE THE SCOPE OF WHAT THEYRE DOING... I MEAN IM PRETTY FUCKIN SMART, AND I KNOW UNEQUIVOCALLY I WOULDNT TRY N MAKE IT MYSELF..SO YEA, UR RIGHT ANY DIPSHIT CAN ORDER CHEMS, BUT YOU HAVE TO GET PRETTY INTO IT TO EVEN KNOW WHAT UR LOOKING FOR ETC, AND I JUST DONT THINK SOMEONE THATS A BIG ENUFF MORON TO HURT THEMSELVES TRYING, WOULD EVEN BE TRYING TO MAKE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE...THEYD PROB B CONTENT W THEUR SHITTY WEED AND VIDEO GAMES...IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE???
I'm surprised if acetate isn't being used to cut concentrates and jack up their performance.
Seems like it would be a way to make your vape pens stand out from the crowd by substituting some of the the with acetate....
Seems like it would be a way to make your vape pens stand out from the crowd by substituting some of the the with acetate....
I have the book Cannabis Alchemy by D. Gold for nearly 20yrs.
So I know about THC-Acetate for 2 decades.
I never tried to make it following the recipe provided by D. Gold in the book because I'm not trained in Chemistry and I didn't want to poison or cause harm to myself or to others.
I also never managed to score this elusive unicorn THC form. So I only heared rumours of it's 2-3x potency in comparison to pure THC
But what I always wondered was that where did D. Gold get the idea of creating an Acetate form of THC?
Now I know. It's the same principle of converting Morphine to Heroin.
Thanks for pointing that out Graywolf.
My bet is that he was thinking what would this same principle do to THC and does it also increase in potency like Morphine to Heroin?
Well I don't think he betted wrong for choosing the green horse...
I KNOW THIS IS AN OLD THREAD - THIS JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION I NEVER TRIED ANY OF THESE PROCEDURES
but it could contribute into medical cannabis history because if youre were able to make diffrent cannabinoids into solvable salts for real medical use on proper scales, then its all calculating how much of which cannabinoid is inside, this gives doctors ability to EXATCLY dose for medical patient, which is the main arguement for not treating patients with cannabinoids!
i got little knowledge of organic chemistry so i want to make some advisements to improve this procedure:
first dont use everclear (i thinks its strong vodka with water so ETOH+H2O (80/20%?) then you put the anydride inside this causes an exothermic reaction because your anhyddride its reacting with to water molecules in the vodka and you just get plain acetic acid, so your mixture is just acid with alcohol, and water, anhydride is expensive! and hard to get. (you may get susicious because you need the acetic anhydride for some other, very dangeroous drugs....) if i buy anhydride here i m sure on THE BLACK LIST, so take this into account, please
that also may be the reason you can't get it into a water free form because there should be SALTS not an oil, als seen in your picture
so my advice is to try this in IPA (drying before) or better Diethylether (its very inernt, so doesnt react with many things) its also evaporating at 38°C so no need for reflux, (or just gentle reflux) easy to evaporate, and yoyu should be ok with just stirring it on a magnetic stirrer overnight.
refluxing in fact, which could destroy some terpenes and cannabinoids, you need to dry the ether first because it contains abot 2-5% water you need to get rid of that water, buy some epson salt MgSO4 (food grade) heat in in an oven 300°C for 4 hours or put it under a bunsen burner and heat all the water out the crush it into a power and mix stir in into the clear ether solution, when it stays powerdery and clumps no more youre done and your ether is water free filter that off and seal it properly in a brown glass bottle because ether is forming peroxides with time which can explode when evoporating to dryness.
you can also use glaubersalt which NaSO4 but you also need it water free this also works with drying the IPA
PS: another method which could work and is very easy and safe, get the dried IPA and put glacial acetic acid inside (this is nearly 99,5% acetic acid, rest is water) stirr well and maybe heat little but (not to boilng!) for some hours then prepare a solution of NaCl in Dh2O (Salt in destilled water) and fully saturate the water with salt, then when you mix @ roomtemperature) the IPA Acetic acid solution with the water you get 2 layers (like oil and water) because the water so so saturated with the NaCl it cant take more salts so you just put this in a sep funnel and collect the ipa and let it evaporate..... maybe get crystals! (one more benefit of this should be the fact that the NaCL some NA may react with Acetic acid, so this molecule is called Natriumacetate and it keeps some kind of PH-Buffering!) the NaAcette should stay in water section also get soem info about mol:mol rations, not to put too much acid inside this will make it wont work correcty!
PS: it may even be possible to just solve the BHO in dried diethylether and then just get some high grad Hydroclorid gas cylinder and push gently through sober Hcl water free 99.999%, and stir it on a stirring plate, to get the Hcl_gas into good contact, this may just parcipitate the cannabinoid salts, you just filter and let them dry...
WELL THIS SEEMS TO BE BULLLSHIT SORRY DONT TRY IT (this may only work with some sort of catalyst)
you can flush away, excess hcl with 2:1 ICE COLD mixture of Ether:IPA (all dry) and then with some more ether to dry crystals fast (crystals will dilute well in warm ipa but nearly nothing in dried ether any temperatre.)
i will make some projects when i get my glassware back and some room and space for expiriments.
MOST OF THINGS HERE IS ABOUT ORGANIC CHEMISTRY AND ABOUT ALKALOIDS, SO VERY DIFFRENT FROM CANNABINOIDS! WHICH DOESNT CONTAIN NITROGEN MOLECULE
PS: i m also interested why you wanted to make the acetate salt exactly and no other one?
i would like to see more of your projects th're great !
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Some good points, and this project was done a decade ago, during which time our extraction and processing techniques have evolved from reasonably concentrated resins, to high purity crystals, so it would be timely to update the experiment to reflect those evolutions in our technology.
I would like to see the same thing done with CBDA, but our SPR lab is closed. I'll see what chemicals, equipment, and product we still have for new experiments that I can set up in my garage lab. I can no longer extract without a permitted facility, but can still process concentrate.
I'll also try to drag Pharmer Joe into the experiment, while he still lives relatively close.
I would like to see the same thing done with CBDA, but our SPR lab is closed. I'll see what chemicals, equipment, and product we still have for new experiments that I can set up in my garage lab. I can no longer extract without a permitted facility, but can still process concentrate.
I'll also try to drag Pharmer Joe into the experiment, while he still lives relatively close.
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thanks for answerin so fast, awesome thread
i think you mean CBD-Acid (like THCV-A)
maybe you could get my some links (pm) from your new work if youre willing to share.
i dunno what an SPR lab is but can you gas chromateographic tests in there?
here you cant get any permission for scientific work on cannabinoids (or takes years) i think you americans and canadian people (also isralites, have done great work on CBD science.)
but i will read more about the chemical charasteristics of cannabinoids and then think about some expiriments.
i got plenty of glassware, but chemicals are sometimes hard to get here.
are youre able to seperate diffrent cannabinoids like THC/CBD/CBG? in your facilities/garage?
did you use carbon acids because, its hard to bind the cannabinoids with mineral acid or does it change in molecular structure? or is it just easy to get?
i also thought about not using a carbon acid to use, but maybe they just work, i know there benzodiazepines like nitrazepam which is also a drivate from an mineral acid HNO3
quote from wiki:
In addition to THC, the extract contains other cannabinoids; when using more polar extractants such as ethanol can be correspondingly polar substances such as chlorophyll, alkaloids (trigonelline, Hordenin), amino acids, amino sugars, [13] possibly also undissolved fine parts of the starting material. By suitable methods, the extract can be further purified.
so diethylether, toluol or some N-Alkanes should be much better to only extract cannabinoids
In addition to THC, the extract contains other cannabinoids; when using more polar extractants such as ethanol can be correspondingly polar substances such as chlorophyll, alkaloids (trigonelline, Hordenin), amino acids, amino sugars, [13] possibly also undissolved fine parts of the starting material. By suitable methods, the extract can be further purified.
so diethylether, toluol or some N-Alkanes should be much better to only extract cannabinoids
here are some papers youre sure know long time ago.... but its interesting that
most important cannabinoids (yet known)
the CBD is very interesting it got double binding in good reaction area !
the metabolism of THC in human body
and some microextractions which they did for hair analysis for THC and CBD (interested what kind of solvent s they use)
i got some other papers in german and english but i need to filter out usefull info....
thanks so far for watching
PS: also if you look at the THC-COOH molecule you can easy change the acetic endin with some more much diffrent other carbone acids (even tartrates) maybe even HNO3 to get the nitrate, or some esters....
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