Plant Growth Regulators (PGRs) thread

spurr · Feb 12, 2011

Xerhoss said:
Good info there. As you know, i'm going to be playing with oil. I'm thinking 190 proof everclear would work as well. What about using simple dish soap as an emulsifier such as one would do with Neem oil?

Hey,

About stock solutions of MeJA:
Making a 1,000x stock solution of MeJA with Everclear/EtOH would be kind of expensive if one is using 50 ppm (2.23e^-5 M) or 100 ppm (4.46e^-4 M) MeJA in working solution (foliar spray). Ex., for 100 ppm foliar spray in a stock solution of 100 mL one would need 10.52 grams of 95% pure MeJA; and that would be ~$500 USD (at ~$50 per gram). For 50 ppm foliar spray in a stock solution of 100 mL one would need 5 grams of 95% pure MeJA; that is ~$250.

If you wanted to use > 25 ppm of MeJA in foliar spray then using pH 7.2 PBS to dissolve the MeJA is the cheapest and best option. If using PBS one would not make a stock solution, a working solutoin would be made and it should be used within 24 hours of being made.

As I noted before, 3 mg of MeJA can be dissolved into 1 mL of pH 7.2 PBS (fwiw, 1.028 gram MeJA = 1 mL at room temp). Then one could mix the solution of MeJA and PBS with water for a total of 1,000 mL (or greater than 1 liter if more is needed). I have to head out now, but I will post the math for 95% pure MeJA in the jasmonates/trichome thread when I get back.

Using PBS instead of Everclear for a working solutoin (foliar spray) is the better option when using ppm shown to be effective for increasing trichome density and number.

I cannot afford to buy 10 grams of MeJA in the next two months so I plan to use PBS too, instead of Everclear.

DonkDBZ · Apr 14, 2011

what PPM of triacontanol would be beneficial in the res if beneficial at all?

bubbakush714 · Apr 17, 2011

Fine tuning your foliar program

http://turf.unl.edu/extpresentationspdf/MIDDLETNGCSAFineTuningFoliar2010.pdf http://turf.unl.edu/extpresentationspdf/MIDDLETNGCSAFineTuningFoliar2010.pdf

bubbakush714 · Apr 18, 2011

Elicitation studies in cell suspension cultures of
Cannabis sativa L.
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/1887/13206/10/05.pdf

Aston1 · Apr 26, 2011

Hormones with Nutrients

Hormones with Nutrients

Hi

I am planning 2-4 weeks veg and flowering outdoor
FIM and short veg (not the best)
Seeds already germinated :

Benzylaminopurine
Brassinolide
Triacontanol
Gibberellic Acid
Naphthalene Acetic Acid
Indole Acetic Acid
Indole Butyric Acid
Fulvic Acid
Humic Acid

Canna Terra Vega & Flores
Canna Rhizotonic
Canna Cannazym
Canna PK13/14
Hesi Super Vit
BIO BIZZ TOP MAX
Advanced Nutrients Carbo Load
Great White Plant Success Mycorrhizae
Bat Guano (NPK 2-15-1)
CO2 Tablets

Gigabud
Amnesia Haze
Kaya Gold
S.A.G.E
Monster
Kushage x2
Burmese Kush x2
White Widow x Big Bud x2
Jack Herer x2
Easy Sativa x6
Critical x6

How to use hormones with nutrients ?
I promise to do photo relation what help everyone.
Sorry for my bad english and thanks for your help

Overthinker · May 19, 2011

Spurr,
Any any results on the low ppm gibb testing?

@all
it would be greatly appreciated if anyone has any further info on Brass. (dosage, timing, source, results, etc) I see spurr states that it is his favorite pgr, yet it seems to be the least discussed.

Spurr, one off the best threads online, anywhere. Its great to have info beyond "opinion" out there for everyone to benefit from. Hope to see the thread continue to grow. A big thank you to all who have contributed!

O

Overthinker · May 20, 2011

Oh, had another question. sorry about the double post.

Do cytokins has any negative crosstalk with anything?

I am trying to understand all of these substances well before I venture into using them much. I have some Jaz spray, Calcium25 (for tria), and kelp extract. I have never been a heavy user of foliars. I realizing I am missing out on a powerful tool and plan to change that. However at moments I feel like I am studying to be a pharmacist. "what will have a negative interaction"...lol

Again, A+ thread,
O

BrwnStickyThumb · May 20, 2011

What about GA3 for seed germination?? I've read it induces the seeds to overcome dormancy and promotes rapid germination, it would be nice since I'm having problems with different plant seeds, from old cannabis seeds to vintage veggies I've foud lying arround. Normal methods some times doesn't work, maybe a little chemical help could be nice, what do you guys think about it??

http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html

spurr · Jun 24, 2011

DonkDBZ said:
what PPM of triacontanol would be beneficial in the res if beneficial at all?

I would suggest use of 0.1-1 ppm TRIA, I would start with 0.1 ppm. You could test upward of 10 ppm if you wish but starting low is best. And yes, it's helpful to apply to roots. I am about to post info and dosage for a commercial product of TRIA ("nutri-stim triacontanol") that is marketed to farmers for soil application.

I have been using ~0.1 ppm TRIA (from super-grow) this grow, and it seems to be doing just as well as when I use 1 ppm. I'm gonna make a post about that too, using yucca extract in plact of Tween20.

spurr · Jun 24, 2011

Aston1 said:
Hi

I am planning 2-4 weeks veg and flowering outdoor
FIM and short veg (not the best)
Seeds already germinated :

Benzylaminopurine
Brassinolide
Triacontanol
Gibberellic Acid
Naphthalene Acetic Acid
Indole Acetic Acid
Indole Butyric Acid
Fulvic Acid
Humic Acid

Canna Terra Vega & Flores
Canna Rhizotonic
Canna Cannazym
Canna PK13/14
Hesi Super Vit
BIO BIZZ TOP MAX
Advanced Nutrients Carbo Load
Great White Plant Success Mycorrhizae
Bat Guano (NPK 2-15-1)
CO2 Tablets

Gigabud
Amnesia Haze
Kaya Gold
S.A.G.E
Monster
Kushage x2
Burmese Kush x2
White Widow x Big Bud x2
Jack Herer x2
Easy Sativa x6
Critical x6

How to use hormones with nutrients ?
I promise to do photo relation what help everyone.
Sorry for my bad english and thanks for your help

Hello,

I'm not sure what you are asking. But I would suggest not using most of those PGRs. Start with one, or two max, ex., triacontanol and jasmonates.

spurr · Jun 24, 2011

Overthinker said:
Spurr,
Any any results on the low ppm gibb testing?

Not yet, no.

Overthinker said:
@all
it would be greatly appreciated if anyone has any further info on Brass. (dosage, timing, source, results, etc) I see spurr states that it is his favorite pgr, yet it seems to be the least discussed.

I thought I wrote about dosage, timing and sourcing in the first few pages, no? If not I can correct that. FWIW, I didn't mean to write Brass is my favorite, I ment to write TRIA is my favorite (aside from jasmonates).

Brass should be used at 0.01-0.05 ppm to start, or better yet test at 0.01 ppm. No higher than 0.5 ppm, I don't suggest higher than 0.1 ppm.

Brass is great stuff but can make plants stretch because it increase cell growth (expansion), among other effects on plants growth.

Overthinker said:
Spurr, one off the best threads online, anywhere. Its great to have info beyond "opinion" out there for everyone to benefit from. Hope to see the thread continue to grow. A big thank you to all who have contributed!

Thanks, glad it helps.

Overthinker said:
Oh, had another question. sorry about the double post.

Do cytokins has any negative crosstalk with anything?

Not that I am aware, and I have co-applied jasmontes as well as TRIA and Brass with cool processed kelp extract.

Overthinker said:
I am trying to understand all of these substances well before I venture into using them much. I have some Jaz spray, Calcium25 (for tria), and kelp extract.

I would suggest starting with one at a time, so you see what they do. Then you can decide if you want to use each. However, kelp extract is a safe bet and good call, no need to test it as you should Jaz spray, TRIA and Brass.

I have seen others claim calcium25 has TRIA, but I didn't see it listed as an ingredient. How do you know it has TRIA? And do you know at what concentration? People also claim SuperThrive has TRIA and I'm not so sure, I think it has NAA and maybe IBA, but I'm unsure(dubious) about TRIA claims.

Overthinker said:
I have never been a heavy user of foliars. I realizing I am missing out on a powerful tool and plan to change that. However at moments I feel like I am studying to be a pharmacist. "what will have a negative interaction"...lol

Yea, when you try to understand the 'hows' and 'whys' of plant physiology and botany, it gets pretty involved.

spurr · Jun 24, 2011

BrwnStickyThumb said:
What about GA3 for seed germination?? I've read it induces the seeds to overcome dormancy and promotes rapid germination, it would be nice since I'm having problems with different plant seeds, from old cannabis seeds to vintage veggies I've foud lying arround. Normal methods some times doesn't work, maybe a little chemical help could be nice, what do you guys think about it??

http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/gibberellic.html

Yea, GA3 is supposed to help seeds in some situations, old seeds may benefit from use of GA3 and/or other PGRs.

spurr · Jun 24, 2011

Using yucca to dissolve powder TRIA into water:

Powder TRIA (triacontanol) has very poor solubility in water, but has higher solubility in water with considerable loss of tension via wetting agent and emulsifier. Tween-20 (polysorbate-20) is the best option, but I wanted to test yucca extract as it's more commonly used by growers.

I tested adding ~2 ml ThermX-70 to ~400 ml hot distilled water (~100-110'F) within a blender cup, then I added ~0.054 gram TRIA (as 85% pure TRIA from super-grow; one level scoop of larger spoon) and blended the mix for about 5 minutes. I then let the solution sit until it settled* and looked for precipitants (TRIA out of solution). I did not see any un-dissolved TRIA, so I then poured the 400 ml TRIA solution into a container with 3,385.4 ml distilled water.

To apply the TRIA solution as foliar I had an accurate gallon (3,785.4 ml) of distilled water, from which I removed 38 ml. Then I mixed up the solution of TRIA and removed 38 ml, and injected that 38 ml into the distilled water. Oh yea, before the 38 ml of TRIA solution was added to the second gallon of water I added 1.25 ml ThermX-70 to the gallon of distilled water and the water was heated to 80'F.

The math is below (I hope it's correct, I did it fast), in case you want to do something similar and want to change ppm, water volume, TRIA purity, etc:

((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6 = 12.125 ppm TRIA in first gallon of water (aka 'stock solution')

(((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6)0.01 = 0.12 ppm TRIA in second gallon of water (aka 'working solution')

spurr · Jun 24, 2011

I found a commercial source of triacontanol solution, ready to use and water miscible, marketed to horticulturists/farmers ...

It's called "Nutri-Stim Triacontanol"; sold by Nutri-Tech Solutions out of Australia. The important part about this triacontanol product vs. others (such as from Wet&Forget) is the percent of triacontanol (C30OH) in solution is listed: 2.5% w/v.

AFAIU, and I could be wrong, 1-triacontanol (aka n-triacontanol) is C30 and can be found as C30OH (i.e., 95.49212% Carbon) and C30H62O (82.11152382471572% Carbon).

So, for example if a goal ppm of TRIA is 1, and we assume "TRIA" is defined as C30, one would use different quantities of C30OH and C30H62O, to provide 1 ppm of C30 (i.e., TRIA). Thus:

1 ppm of C30OH is 0.955 ppm TRIA

and

1 ppm of C30H62O is 0.821 ppm TRIA

^^^ What all that means is to provide 1 ppm of TRIA (i.e., C30) we need to take into account the molecular formula of the triacontanol source we are using.

The ingredients of Nutri-Stim Triacontanol follow, they used alcohol and other substances to dissolve the triacontanol powder (solute) and then dilute with water (solvent):

From the MSDS: link

Triacontanol, ethyl alcohol, nonyl phenyl ethoxylate, sodium dodecyl sulfate, water.

I contacted the makers and below is what they wrote back, re ordering their product in the US. The price per liter may seen expensive, but please consider (if my math is correct) one would be making a stock solution of 1 liter using only 4.2 ml of Nutri-Stim Triacontanol. And from that stock solution only 1 ml will be taken, to be mixed with 1 L to make a working solution of about 0.1 ppm TRIA. So, that one initial liter of Nutri-Stim Triacontanol will last quite a long time. The suggested application rate on the bottle is 4 ml per 1,000 L, that is, 0.004 ml per liter; providing ~0.9545 ppm TRIA (as C30) or ~1 ppm triacontanol (as C30OH).

(Next post is part 2)

spurr · Jun 24, 2011

Here is what I plan to do, I plan to order some Nutri-Stim Triacontanol to test:

Nutri-Stim Triacontanol has 2.5% C30OH, by weight to volume.
Target ppm for stock solution (concentrate) of TRIA: 100 ppm (0.2279 mM)
Target ppm for working solution (ex., foliar spray) of TRIA: 0.1 ppm (0.002279 mM)

Need (ideally but optionally):

Deionized water, if not then distilled water, at least RO water
Tween-20 (polysorbate-20)
Accurate graduating cylinder (a fancy measuring cup) to measure volume of liquid
Scale that weighs to 0.01 gram, with equal accuracy ... OR Small syringe that can accurately measure to tenths of an mL, or at least to single mL; those syringes can be found at a pharmacy. Tell the pharmacist you need it to give your dogs oral liquid meds. Tell the pharmacist the vet sent you to get the syringe at a pharmacy, and it needs to accurately measure volume.
- once one gets a small syringe, make sure to test it against weight of water. I.e., use the syringe to 'suck up' 1 mL of deionized or distilled water (at least RO), then expel the water into a cup and weigh the water. The water should be 1 gram, if it's an accurate 1 mL of pure water. Hopefully the syringe passed the test, if not, weigh out 1 gram of water and suck it into the syringe, then mark the water level on the outside of the syringe (with a marker) as being 1 mL.

Stock solution:

100 ppm (0.2279 mM) TRIA

Measure out 1,000 mL of water, using a graduated cylinder is best but measuring cup would suffice.
- (optional use of Tween20) Instead of measuring out 1,000 mL water, measure out 750 mL water and add 250 mL Tween-20 to the 750 mL of water.
Add 4 mL NurtriStim TRIA to 1,000 mL of aqueous solution (or just plain Di water) for 100 ppm TRIA (as C30-OH).
- (((4*0.025)/1000)1,000,000) = 100 ppm NutriStim TRIA (as C30-OH)
- (optionally) find specific gravity of NutriStim TRIA and multiply that by 4, to find the needed quantity of TRIA by weight instead of volume.
Close container for storage, keep in cool and dark location.
- (optionally) adding anti-microbial to stock solution may extend life of stock solution, esp if Tween20 is used.

Working solution:

0.1 ppm (0.002279 mM) TRIA

(these directions are for one liter of spray, increase amounts by 3.78541178 for a gallon)

Measure out 1,000 mL of water
Measure out 1 mL of stock solution and mix into 1,000 mL water for 0.1 ppm working solution.
- (optionally) find specific gravity of NutriStim TRIA and multiply that by 1, to find the needed quantity of TRIA by weight instead of volume.
Add a good non-ionic surfactant to water, do not use Penetrator/Saturator or dish soap.
Put solution into sprayer and spray plants

I think I am going to order a liter next month, and try it out, I am running out of triacontanol (C30H62O) from Super-grow anyway. Shipping shouldn't be too bad on a liter of liquid. I'll update this thread when I test it out.

Source of Nutri-Stim Triacontanol:
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/products/liquid-fertilisers/nutri-stim-triacontanol.html

Other (occasionally interesting) products from Nutri-Tech Solutions:
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/sustainable-agriculture.html

spurr · Jun 27, 2011

Dave Coulier · Jun 28, 2011

spurr said:
Using yucca to dissolve powder TRIA into water:

Powder TRIA (triacontanol) has very poor solubility in water, but has higher solubility in water with considerable loss of tension via wetting agent and emulsifier. Tween-20 (polysorbate-20) is the best option, but I wanted to test yucca extract as it's more commonly used by growers.

I tested adding ~2 ml ThermX-70 to ~400 ml hot distilled water (~100-110'F) within a blender cup, then I added ~0.054 gram TRIA (as 85% pure TRIA from super-grow; one level scoop of larger spoon) and blended the mix for about 5 minutes. I then let the solution sit until it settled* and looked for precipitants (TRIA out of solution). I did not see any un-dissolved TRIA, so I then poured the 400 ml TRIA solution into a container with 3,385.4 ml distilled water.

To apply the TRIA solution as foliar I had an accurate gallon (3,785.4 ml) of distilled water, from which I removed 38 ml. Then I mixed up the solution of TRIA and removed 38 ml, and injected that 38 ml into the distilled water. Oh yea, before the 38 ml of TRIA solution was added to the second gallon of water I added 1.25 ml ThermX-70 to the gallon of distilled water and the water was heated to 80'F.

The math is below (I hope it's correct, I did it fast), in case you want to do something similar and want to change ppm, water volume, TRIA purity, etc:

((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6 = 12.125 ppm TRIA in first gallon of water (aka 'stock solution')

(((0.85)0.054/3785.4)10^6)0.01 = 0.12 ppm TRIA in second gallon of water (aka 'working solution')

Hey Spurr, I have some Super Grow Tria as well. I never got around to using it, and I have the Yucca Extract as well. I think Ill give this a go soon. What type of results have you seen so far?

spurr · Jun 28, 2011

I noticed (when using the yucca with triacontanol) increased growth rate (in terms of leaf development and plant height) and the leafs seemed express better phototropism, leafs get greener (increased Chl from the TRIA) and roots seem to be get bigger (root ball), too. That is all non-analytical at this point.

I do noticed plants can stretch a bit when sprayed with TRIA during late pre-flowering, I assume that's due to the increased rate of photosynthesis from the TRIA.

You may want to start out with half of what I used, as a test. But I think starting at ~0.1 ppm is fine. Also, I wrote about an issue (in the post about Nutri-Stim) re the molecular formula(s) of triacontanol, and how that may affect the true ppm of TRIA. What that means you, and I, could actually use less TRIA than we think we are (I explained how to find the possibly 'true' TRIA ppm in that post).

The volumes I used for mixing the triacontanol, ex., 400 mL hot distilled water, and the volume of yucca extract, are not mandatory. Those volumes are just what I happened to test. I cannot guarantee that using yucca will dissolve all the TRIA into solution.

dizzlekush · Aug 19, 2011

this has to be the most helpful thread ive ever seen on a forum. in looking for a cheap source of MeJA for anyone to buy i ran across this
http://www.methyljasmonate.com/order_methyl_jasmonate.html
http://www.methyljasmonate.com/coa.html

or

http://methyl-jasmonate.com/Order_Methyl_Jasmonate_USA.html

look legitimate to anyone? the second one looks rather promising. Paypal payment options and in the U.S. (San Diego, CA) so there's less of a chance of customs seizing it. (no chance if you're in Cali, like me) $155 for 10grams.

Spurr i know you've decided to leave the public part of this website. just want to thank you for everything you've done at ICMag. you're probably the single most helpful and informative person i've found in any forum. :thank you:

dizzlekush · Aug 19, 2011

o and another source for that Nutri Stim Triacontanol

http://www.planthealthsolutions.com.au/buy/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=199

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