DIY Nutrients formulations, recipes, chemistry etc.

greenmatter · Dec 29, 2010

funkymonkey said:
Good post greenmatter, some good info there. Maybe someone with some chemistry education can chime in and give some info on calcium sources?

I'd like to read that book but have no bidget for buying books, sadly. If someone has it and can upload scans of the formulas, that would be fantastic.

I agree, Mel Frank seems to be the only one to have published nutrient profiles, I stick to his 200-100-200-60 NPKMg for veg/early bloom and 100-100-200-60 NPKMg for mid-late bloom and it works well for me, the Ionic nutes I've been using for a while (got em dirt cheap) happen to have those same ratios as Mel published which makes it pretty easy to stick to those ratios.

I know spurr has some info on nutrient profiles, maybe he will pop in and post it for us.

Disappointingly, that H&G PDF doesn't have any info on the ingredients, it mentions they use EDDHA as their Iron chelator but gives little other info.

sorry funky no scanner and i can't really type worth a damn ... got a couple friends i'm gonna try to get to help me out .. i will try

funkymonkey · Dec 29, 2010

CatManDoo said:
What a great thread!
Making our own nutes is a long needed topic. I think your right FunkyMonkey, what I have is a Mag deficiency. Im new to coco and have clones in it right now with some yellowing on the leaves overall but the veins are still green or turning reddish purple. Yesterday I sprayed a light epsom salt on them and also watered with it. I have hard water so Im thinking now that Calcium may not be a problem but Ive also heard that too much Calcium can lead to a deficiency in Mag (?) --Sorry this is probably off topic a little bit.

No answer yet on where to get raw nute ingredients?

ebay is your friend for ingredients, you can get tons of different chemicals in reagent grade from lab supplies type places or the horti grade from farm and garden suppliers, I get 90% of things I use for making nutes on ebay.

Additives like powdered seaweed, aminos and humic/fulvic are also available on ebay, check out seller brandmel, has a store on ebay called The Organic Store.

CatManDoo · Dec 29, 2010

Will do, thanks

funkymonkey · Dec 29, 2010

greenmatter said:
sorry funky no scanner and i can't really type worth a damn ... got a couple friends i'm gonna try to get to help me out .. i will try

Thanks man, I would be very grateful if you manage to find them.

!!! · Dec 29, 2010

Good thread. There's a few more on icmag on this topic that are worth checking out (search.)

I was planning on mixing my own nutes until I discovered GH's Maxi series. MaxiGro + MaxiBloom are cheap and work just as good as the more expensive nutes. But this still seems like a fun project so I'm going to order some chems and get to it.

funkymonkey · Dec 29, 2010

Hi mullray, thanks for posting, I was hoping you'd chime in.

Apart from looking at labels, which is misleading at best, I really don't know where to find info on formulations. I looked for info on house and garden coco a+b and could find very little.

I'm hoping someone has some formulations/recipes they can post.

Be interesting to have Canna Boost analyzed, always wondered just what is in it.

I can buy Yara brand fertilisers at farm supply stores near where I live, have to but the 25 kilo sacks but they aren't expensive, as you pointed out. I posted some screencaps from a H&G video a couple of pages back where they showed they were using Yara salts to mix their products from. However, I don't have room to be storing big sacks of chemicals so I have been buying small quantities, there are a couple of local suppliers where I can get most things at good prices, what I can't find locally I can get on ebay.

funkymonkey · Dec 29, 2010

I just mentioned Yara because I know it's sold at several places local to me. I too found it ironic that H&G were using Yara salts, they claim so much but are in reality using one of the commonest brands of horti chems in the world.

I buy the most common salts for 2-3 quid a kilo at my local garden centre, they don't have everything but they have things like Ammonium Nitrate, Iron Sulphate, Potassium Sulphate, Magnesium Sulphate etc. Slightly less common ones like mono potassium phosphate and magnesium nitrate I can get for 3-4 qud a kilo plus a couple of quid shipping from a place 35 miles away. Of course, these prices per kilo are 3-4x as expensive as if i bought 25 kilo sacks, but that would be overkill for me, take me years to use em up and I just don't have room to be storing be sacks of chems.

Carboy · Dec 29, 2010

mullray said:
I'll also make people an offer. If you post lab analysis of products I will provide you with the formula (g/L of fertilizers required to make it). Sorry guys don't give me the shit that is written on bottle labels - it's generally misleading and the real formulas often look nothing like what lab analysis demonstrates to 95% (+) accuracy. If you want to test in the US use JR Peters lab in PA. It costs $40.00 a solution to analyze a product.

http://www.jrpeterslab.com/index.html

First, Have you water analyzed and adjust salts appropriately. Or use RO water, take nute sample and have that analyzed.
Second, take media samples (if not hydro) and have that analyzed.
Third, take leaf samples and yes, you guessed it -- have that analyzed.

After every step above, part of the deal is you can consult w/ experts in botany. Phd type experts. Get on IC and ask people like Mullray. Then you will have the information and science. Best money you will ever spend. There will be a base to build on. Knowledge will trump that "Magic in a Bottle" everytime.
CB

BerndV · Dec 29, 2010

mullray said:
I'll also make people an offer. If you post lab analysis of products I will provide you with the formula (g/L of fertilizers required to make it). Sorry guys don't give me the shit that is written on bottle labels - it's generally misleading and the real formulas often look nothing like what lab analysis demonstrates to 95% (+) accuracy. If you want to test in the US use JR Peters lab in PA. It costs $40.00 a solution to analyze a product.

http://www.jrpeterslab.com/index.html

Yes, the labels, particularly when it comes to the Dutch manufacturers, are incomplete at best. The following is the elemental formula for Canna Coco A&B:

COCO A COCO B
ELEMENT
NH4N (mg/L) 117 1184
NO3N (mg/L) 42200 6780

S (mg/L) 47.1 7930
P (mg/L) 14.4 16190
K (mg/L) 6880 16780
Na (mg/L) 39.8 122.3
Ca (mg/L) 53600 620
Mg (mg/L) 7470 12310
Cu (mg/L) 1.2 9.4
Zn (mg/L) 1 69.2
Mn (mg/L) 3.2 122.9
Fe (mg/L) 199.5 2.1
B (mg/L) 0.9 63.4
Cl (mg/L) 13.4 34.3
Mo (mg/L) 0.8 13.2

In his discussion of nutrient formulas, Lucas wondered about the low mg in Canna Coco based on plugging the guaranteed analysis and density into the cannastats calculator. The Coco B label lists mg at 1.1%, while the Coco A doesn't list any mg. However, the Coco A label lists magnesium nitrate as the third ingredient. Clearly, Canna's Coco A&B are closer to 1.8% mg than the 1.1%
that seemed too low to give good results. Now take all the people adding some sort of CalMag product to their Canna mix trying to correct what they think is a mg deficiency, and what they are probably doing is exacerbating a potassium deficiency, as the Canna Coco base nutes are very low in K (and P). The low K makes sense for the early portion of a coco grow when the coco is releasing a high level of K. Also, Canna Coco A&B have plenty of calcium and probably need no supplementation even in RO water. At Canna's lightest recommended feeding of 8 ml/gal they have substantially more Ca than H3ad's 6/9 GH micro and bloom formula. IMO, the Canna Coco A&B is great as a stand-alone coco veg formula and with the addition of their PK 13/14 becomes a great coco bloom formula.

funkymonkey · Dec 29, 2010

Here's a useful little article I found:

Composition of Nutrient Solutions (ppm)

Nutrient formulations are usually given in parts per million (ppm) concentration of each essential element. One ppm is one part of one item in one million parts of another. For example 250 ppm of calcium in a solution can be 250 microgram per gram or 250 milligram per litre.

Optimum nutrient requirement of plants depends on various factors - Plant species and variety, stage of plant growth, season of the year and the weather. Requirements, particularly of Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium vary with plant type and stage of growth. Lettuce and other leafy vegetables need higher levels of nitrogen than tomatoes and cucumbers. The latter two requires higher rates of phosphorus, calcium and potassium.

Some of the complete hydroponic Nutrient Formulations ( Composition of elements in ppm) is shown in the table below.

List of commonly available Fertilizer Salts

In hydroponics all the essential elements are supplied to the plants by dissolving fertilizer salts in water to make the nutrient solution. The choice of salts to be used depends on a number of factors such as solubility in water, cost, availability and most importantly to satisfy the ppm requirement of all elements without excessive supply. For example one molecule of potassium nitrate (KNO3) will yield one ion of potassium (K+) and one ion of nitrate, whereas one molecule of calcium nitrate (Ca(NO3)2) will yield 1 ion of calcium (Ca++) and 2 ions of nitrate 2(NO3-). Therefore, if a minimum number of cations is wanted while supplying sufficient nitrate (anions) then calcium nitrate should be used.

The following table shows commonly avaliable fertilizer salts from which the elements needed (table above) can be supplied to plants in required quantities.

Nutrient Solution Preparation

If you remember high school chemistry, you will find this section easy to understand.

Atomic and molecular weights of elements and compounds must be used in calculating nutrient formulation and concentration requirements. Please refer the previous table - Commonly avaliable fertilizer salts, The molecular weight of Ca(NO3)2 is 164.1 (This molecule contains 1 atom of calcium, 2 atoms of nitrogen and 6 atoms of Oxygen). Atomic weights of Calcium - 40, Nitrogen - 14 and Oxygen - 16. So, Mol. wt of Ca(NO3)2 is 40+(2x14)+(6x16)=164.

Now, if a nutrient formulation calls for 200 ppm of calcium (i.e 200 mg per litre) we need 200 mg of calcium in every litre of water. We know that in 164 mg of Ca(NO3)2 we have 40 mg of calcium, so first step in calculation is to find out how much of Ca(NO3)2 is needed to supply 200 mg of calcium.

164 mg of Ca(NO3)2 = 40 mg of Ca

"X" mg of Ca(NO3)2 = 200 mg of Ca

X = 164 x 200/ 40 =>820 mg

820 mg of Ca(NO3)2 will supply 200 mg of Calcium

Since, calcium nitrate contains nitrogen also, 820 mg of calcium nitrate contains (820/164) x 28 => 140 mg of Nitrogen is already supplied while fulfiling the callcium requirement. If the formulation requires 160 mg of Nitrogen, we are short of 20 mg. This can be supplied by KNO3 while fulfilling the potassium reguirement.

This is an iterative process which goes on till the time all the nutrient requirements are met with the available salts.

You could follow these steps - Calcium should be provided by calcium nitrate. Calcium nitrate will also provide nitrate nitrogen. Any additional nitrogen required should be provided by potassium nitrate, which also provides some potassium. All the phosphorus may be obtained from monopotassium phosphate, which also provides some potassium. The remaining potassium requirement can be obtained from potassium sulphate, which also provides some sulphur. Additional sulphur comes from other sulphates such as magnesium sulphate, which is used to supply magnesium needs.

Source: Hydroponic Food Production by Howard M Resh.

YosemiteSam · Dec 29, 2010

My favorite place to get individual salts if you are in the US is http://customhydronutrients.com/zencart/. All you have to do is tell the owner what elemental ppms you want to run and he will work out a formula for you. Or if you would prefer he will make a recommend that will work great...you could tweak from there based on your particular strain.

Tell him Yo sent you if you decide to write.

For the record I use something very close to 3-1-4-2.2-1 N-P-K-Ca-Mg and it works better than any hydro store formula I ever used.

edit...I am spending about 2.5 cents per gallon vs around 20 cents when I was using GH products. And I want to emphasize my results in both yield and quantity have improved significantly.

edit dos...when you get the formula of your fav bottled nute it will at least have an NPK and hopefully Ca and Mg along with a derived from section. If you get those the micros are pretty standard anyways.

But the truth is the bottled formulas aren't really that good anyway...everyone of them I have seen has too much P. I think you are better off starting somewhere around 3-1-4 (elemental, not P2O5 and K2O)...that will work and then you can make adjustments from that based on what you see to optimize your own results.

And Mullray is definitely right about avoiding Cl salts. Cl is essential but in micro levels. Using it at higher levels, as in CaCl, will give you toxic levels...just like if you used too much Fe or Mn.

BerndV · Dec 29, 2010

Here is a good source for chelated micronutrients, including iron eddha:

http://www.tradecorp.com.es/internet/products/gama1.asp?id_familia=1

tester · Dec 30, 2010

BerndV said:
Yes, the labels, particularly when it comes to the Dutch manufacturers, are incomplete at best. The following is the elemental formula for Canna Coco A&B:

COCO A COCO B
ELEMENT
NH4N (mg/L) 117 1184
NO3N (mg/L) 42200 6780

S (mg/L) 47.1 7930
P (mg/L) 14.4 16190
K (mg/L) 6880 16780
Na (mg/L) 39.8 122.3
Ca (mg/L) 53600 620
Mg (mg/L) 7470 12310
Cu (mg/L) 1.2 9.4
Zn (mg/L) 1 69.2
Mn (mg/L) 3.2 122.9
Fe (mg/L) 199.5 2.1
B (mg/L) 0.9 63.4
Cl (mg/L) 13.4 34.3
Mo (mg/L) 0.8 13.2

In his discussion of nutrient formulas, Lucas wondered about the low mg in Canna Coco based on plugging the guaranteed analysis and density into the cannastats calculator. The Coco B label lists mg at 1.1%, while the Coco A doesn't list any mg. However, the Coco A label lists magnesium nitrate as the third ingredient. Clearly, Canna's Coco A&B are closer to 1.8% mg than the 1.1%
that seemed too low to give good results. Now take all the people adding some sort of CalMag product to their Canna mix trying to correct what they think is a mg deficiency, and what they are probably doing is exacerbating a potassium deficiency, as the Canna Coco base nutes are very low in K (and P). The low K makes sense for the early portion of a coco grow when the coco is releasing a high level of K. Also, Canna Coco A&B have plenty of calcium and probably need no supplementation even in RO water. At Canna's lightest recommended feeding of 8 ml/gal they have substantially more Ca than H3ad's 6/9 GH micro and bloom formula. IMO, the Canna Coco A&B is great as a stand-alone coco veg formula and with the addition of their PK 13/14 becomes a great coco bloom formula.

It seems to be that you are right.

These are two nutrient profiles, following the Canna Coco Normal program.
The left one is calculated with the nutrient content presented on this site, the right one is based on the analysis, which can be found here, I assume this was your source too.

Notice the difference in the level of Mg.
According to the label it's only around 30ppm on every week, but it's around 50-60ppm based on the analysis, which is a normal amount.
And K is really low (62-73 ppm) throughout the whole program, although there is a spike on week 6 because of a product named "PK 13/14" which is only applied once.
IMO the level of P is normal compared to other guidelines or schedules.

liquidcooled420 · Dec 30, 2010

would it be possible to make a diy, dry, one part version of a two part nutrient like h&g aqua flakes?

this thread is really interesting.

CFP65 · Jan 1, 2011

first off i think this is one of the best treads iwe seen a long time in here.
next, anyone with a really good idea to a seedproduction formula

iwe seen all kinds of info on this subject ranging from using veg nutes all the way trough the grow to full range of nutes and additives and so on.
im not thinking of just another formula or a fomula that will just do, what im after is a formula that does it A class

Carboy · Jan 1, 2011

Auto Parts Store

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Some use citric acid for pH down. Another good alternative is battery or sulfuric acid. Be sure to acct. for the S04 added. Talked w/ the owner of Dyna-Gro once and he preferred this to citric acid because his theory was citric acid added an "organic". I'm too ignorant about the matter to have an opinion, but that was his.
Probably dating myself here, but back in the original muscle car days when I used auto parts places alot, they sold a product commonly referred to as "water glass" --- sodium silicate. Was used to put in cooling system of a car; run it hot then drain it out. Believe it or not, could fix some cracked blocks for the rest of the life of the vehicle. However, for our current use, we can combine a ratio of NaSi03 / K2Si03. Na is listed as a essential micro-nutrient. The truth on the micros in general is: they don't fucking know. Be that as it may, few mixes or formulas have Na in them. Sodium silicate is good cheap controllable way to add Na.
Silica is an ongoing debate in itself. All the way from "it should be considered a Macro" to "you don't need the shit at all". Personally, I can't see how it could possibly hurt and might be of great benefit. Sort of a no lose deal to add, so I do myself.
Everyone have a great new yr. and I'm loving this thread -- tell your friends to read it.
CB

BerndV · Jan 1, 2011

Na has been demonstrated to be an essential micro-nutrient only in C4 plants, not C3's like cannabis. Canna nutes have very small amounts of Na. However, even a slight excess will lock out K. I would be very careful about adding anything containing Na, particularly if you are unsure about whether your base nutes actually have some already, as it is not likely to be listed on the guaranteed analysis. Also, industrial grade sulfuric acid is loaded with heavy metals and other contaminants which you would not want in your nutrient mix. If sulfuric is your choice, source some ACS reagent grade stuff and be careful. Like high molar nitric acid, it is very nasty stuff if you have an accident

Carboy · Jan 1, 2011

BerndV said:
Na has been demonstrated to be an essential micro-nutrient only in C4 plants, not C3's like cannabis. Canna nutes have very small amounts of Na. However, even a slight excess will lock out K. I would be very careful about adding anything containing Na, particularly if you are unsure about whether your base nutes actually have some already, as it is not likely to be listed on the guaranteed analysis. Also, industrial grade sulfuric acid is loaded with heavy metals and other contaminants which you would not want in your nutrient mix. If sulfuric is your choice, source some ACS reagent grade stuff and be careful. Like high molar nitric acid, it is very nasty stuff if you have an accident

Which all points back to rule #1:
Have a sample test.

Everybody, and I mean, everybody should take a sample of what they are feeding their plants and have it analyzed. Until you got the numbers and know what they mean, you ain't got shit. "I'm going to increase the PK in flower." Alright, you are going to increase the PK from what point? It's all meaningless, unless you put it in context. If you don't have a benchmark, it is all a shot in the dark.
There is factor after factor to consider and not the least being the media you use. Just because it is good in coco & perlite doesn't mean it will translate to soil. For this discussion, I think we should consider everything we talk about as being hydro. After that, people are on their own on applying it to their app.
As for Na, take it up w/ Dyna-Gro. In all their products. So is CL -- another controversial micro. I don't have a bitch at all w/ them. Fine product in my book, just not paying the duty. Don't really care what H&G, AN or Dyna-Gro does. I'm not starting w/ their base nor adding anything to their base. Don't have to worry about it. If I did want to combine, I'd go back to rule #1.
Concerning contaminates in sulfuric acid. What are we talking -- 1t to 1T per 50gal estimate? On that ppm schedule, I'll find something else to worry about. Personal choice; feel free to not agree. Reagent grade would have to be better. And either way, you are right that it should be diluted before use.
You can pull out any point and debate the merits or debits. But if you don't know the baseline it really doesn't mean a thing.

tester · Jan 2, 2011

Which all points back to rule #0, the reason for this thread:

Do not buy pre-mixed fertilizer solutions because they are overpriced and unrealible, so you don't have to spend on the analysis.
The analysis can cost more than the fertilizer itself.

There is also a problem with relying solely on a lab analysis, because it's based on only 1 bottle (that's just one liter from the thousands).
One batch can be different from an other, even fertilizer regulations allows a tolerance for every nutrient sometimes almost a whole percent. Upon manufacture, mistakes can also occur, the final nutrient content is not consistent.
So just because 1 bottle contains a given amount of nutes, the average nutrient content of the whole batch can be different because of allowances, tolerances, mistakes, changes, etc.

But certainly the best thing to do with store bought fert solutions is to get it analysed, so no surprises will happen.

When these products will be tailored directly for cannabis and will be based on reliable research, I will be happy to pay for them so my money can help to make more researches, so it will become even better, along with my yield and quality so it's really gonna worth to pay for it.

If I buy any bottle of fertilizer today, I pay to hear lies. There is no research or quality ingredients behind a product, there's mostly marketing.

Back to Canna Coco

BerndV said:
The Coco B label lists mg at 1.1%, while the Coco A doesn't list any mg. However, the Coco A label lists magnesium nitrate as the third ingredient. Clearly, Canna's Coco A&B are closer to 1.8% Mg than the 1.1%

Coco A doesn't list any Mg content, nor magnesium nitrate, so there is no controversy.
Coco B is the one that lists Mg and Magnesium nitrate not Coco A.

Pictures of Canna's labels from here

funkymonkey · Jan 2, 2011

mullray said:
I agree - 3- 1- 4 are good numbers. Hydro manufacturers in many cases run high N to con growers because then their plants look green and this makes them think they are healthy and going to provide great results. Some of the shittiest yields I've seen came off wonderfully green plants. High N is crap - lower N and higher K always wins the race. I would kick it up to 3- 1- 6 in bloom dependent on whether you are growing indica or sativa. By the way maybe 3- 1.2 - 6. The tests I've run demonstrate that the plant requires more P in bloom. I've looked very closely at the AN tests and there are some flaws that are apparent. Secondly they do not clearly state methodology and there is also some very important missing measurement data. I have a plant physiologist friend looking over that data now to see just what he makes of it.

Re Micros:

Their are micro mixes which cover the whole range of micros such as Librel BMX. Personally I always custom tweak my micros by ppm using seperate elements but Librel BMX works just fine.

3-1-6 seems to be a lot of K. I've always believed that cannabis is very tolerant of NPK values as I've seen people grow good weed with all different kinds of fertilisers, in the 90s before we had hydro stores everywhere we had great success with 5-5-10 tomato food for bloom and 20-20-20 all purpose for veg.

The only nutrient profiles I have seen for cannabis are the Mel Frank 2-1-2 for veg 1-1-2 for bloom, Nevil wrote in the 1990 Seedbank catalogue that he used a formula originally developed for greenhouse cultivation of sweet peppers on rockwool slabs.

Has anyone got any info on the best nutrient profiles for cannabis?

The only two Trace Mixes I have found for sale in the UK are the Chempak one which is about 6ukp for 500g and an unbranded one called 'Frit' for bonsai trees and is more granular than powder, I have 100g of it here I got it from the local garden centre for 2ukp.

DIY Nutrients formulations, recipes, chemistry etc.

greenmatter

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