You can modify the 59025 to function the same if I'm not mistaken. Order away plades
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Haskel pneumatic refrigerant pumps
- Thread starter Gray Wolf
- Start date
Gotcha. I was thinking that instead of a mark v one could have 2 mark ivs t'd together on the recovery port or even 2 mark v's doubling your evaporative surface area. I figured that if you are running through bulk of the same material it would save you time. If you start the process at the same time, running the same material packed the same it should work methinks. Alas we are humans and not automated robots..I just wanted to run it past you first.
Thanks for reiterating that -29.9 is essentially running the pump dry. I'll do my best to remember that as I know you've repeated that at least 30x on ic.
Gw how deep would you pull the vac? Still at -22, or deeper than that? I know were are talking pennies on the dollar or fractions of pennies.
Also looking forward to your input Dave.
Happy Christmahannukwanzikuh everyone!
Dave at Haskel
Active member
There are several questions on this subject, so I'll see how I can answer this as I understand the questions and extraction processes (remember, my expertise is on the pump side, not the extraction side). Let's go back to what the EXT420 is, it's a single stage/double acting pump. There are two pump chambers in the pump that oppose each other, one side is always drawing in gas at lower pressure (chamber volume is increasing), while the other side is compressing the gas that was just drawn in (chamber volume decreasing). Each chamber has two check valves on it, one on the inlet (keeps gas that is drawn into the pump from going back out the suction line) and one on the outlet (keeps the pressurized gas that has been pumped out from going back into the pump chamber). The inlets of the two chambers are manifolded together as well as the outlets, this allows you to make one suction connection to the pump and outlet connection to the pump.
GW is correct, you could connect two tanks to the inlet of the EXT420 using a "T". Which ever supply tank had the highest pressure would have the most amount of gas removed, which means that if one pots was at a higher temperature (assuming same solvent in both pots), it would empty first, since the pressure in the lower temperature pot wouldn't be able to overcome the pressure of the warmer pot until most of the warmer solvent was removed.
The other choice would be to remove the inlet manifold off the EXT420. Without the inlet manifold, the EXT420 is basically two independent pumps. You could connect one pot to each of the inlets and then pump the solvent into a single tank, or, remove the outlet manifold and pump into two different tanks. This would allow the two pots to be evacuated with virtually no influence on the other.
We only rate the EXT420 down to an inlet pressure of 0 psig, it's not rated to pull any vacuum. I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know how well it will pull vacuum - if someone tries this, let me know how it works, I'm curious. This shouldn't hurt the pump as long as it's run slowly, when your inlet pressure start dropping towards 0 psig, I would suggest keeping the pump running about 30 cycles per minute or less (using a throttling valve on the drive air line). As the pressure start approaching 0 psig, keep an eye on both the inlet and outlet pressures, if they aren't changing, shut the pump down, you aren't getting any work done (no solvent transferring), which means the pump could be getting hot, which could eventually cause seal failure.
This is one of the trade off's from the 59025. The 59025 is a two stage/double acting pump. Since the gas is handled twice, it has half the flow rate, however, it's two stages do allow it to pull vacuum down to around 20" Hg. It is possible to replumb an EXT420 (or a 59025) into a pump that can be switch from a single stage pump to a two stage pump. The conversion is relatively simple (that's easy for me to say) using some tubing, a ball valve and a couple more check valves. If people are interested in this, let me know and I can try to post the schematic.
I hope that answers your questions. Let me know if you have more or need some clarifications.
Hope you had a Merry Christmas or a good Chanukah, a happy Kwanzaa, for you Druids and Pagans a good Winter Solistice and for the rest of us a great Festivus!
Dave
Dave at Haskel
Active member
I will pass it on, but this is not going to be an easy or quick development. Please be patient, I'll keep you advised.
Dave
Thanks for your input Dave. We are really lucky to have you here! I'm sure all of is are interested in schematics that show how to convert the pump.p
l
I didn't realize that the ext420 was designed to go down to 0hg while the 59025 can go to -20hg. An option like you mentioned to convert the pump to either style would be a must have for any serious extractor.
Run the Ext420 in standard formation until 0hg and then hit the ball valve to switch it to flow like the 59025 to recover down to -20hg. If you could rig up a solenoid to switch at or near 0hg activated by a pressure switch Automatically, allowing one to recover down to -20hg without worrying about running the pump dry or beyond spec it would be really slick. Perhaps between your engineer's and gw something of that sort could become a reality sooner than later.
l
I didn't realize that the ext420 was designed to go down to 0hg while the 59025 can go to -20hg. An option like you mentioned to convert the pump to either style would be a must have for any serious extractor.
Run the Ext420 in standard formation until 0hg and then hit the ball valve to switch it to flow like the 59025 to recover down to -20hg. If you could rig up a solenoid to switch at or near 0hg activated by a pressure switch Automatically, allowing one to recover down to -20hg without worrying about running the pump dry or beyond spec it would be really slick. Perhaps between your engineer's and gw something of that sort could become a reality sooner than later.
Why wouldn't we run the original haskel if the ext420 only pulls down to 0.......
Has this not been brought to your attention Dave that we MUST be able to pull into a vac, at the very least -10.......
It seems to me that the 59025 is still the only way to go, considering its known and tested ability to pull a deep vac.
Its no faster than the modified 59025 correct Dave?
HL45 if your looking to recover multiple machines of bulk product my plan is to setup a series of columns mounted on a rack slightly elevated. These all would bottom flood individually and overflow into a very large collection spool, which would be either stacked 12" ers or a fabricated one such as the style PMP Labs uses. The material columns would also have a manifold on the underside for dumps....
Its much like a 3x 5l co2 machine
Has this not been brought to your attention Dave that we MUST be able to pull into a vac, at the very least -10.......
It seems to me that the 59025 is still the only way to go, considering its known and tested ability to pull a deep vac.
Its no faster than the modified 59025 correct Dave?
HL45 if your looking to recover multiple machines of bulk product my plan is to setup a series of columns mounted on a rack slightly elevated. These all would bottom flood individually and overflow into a very large collection spool, which would be either stacked 12" ers or a fabricated one such as the style PMP Labs uses. The material columns would also have a manifold on the underside for dumps....
Its much like a 3x 5l co2 machine
Perma I'll be running multiple tr21s or crappions long before I get into Haskel. ..I'm really just thinking out loud amd trying to help folks like yourself. If I am understanding everything correctly the ext420 is faster since the gas is not pumped twice, not sure that the output is doubled at least but I'd say at least 30% faster as a guess.. but the 59025 pulls below 0 down to -20hg. With a few more parts you can have both options in the same pump all you'll have to do is turn the ball valve at 0. And the ext420 will be plumbed ljke the 59025..I might even do it at +5hg just to be safe and save on wear and tear..
I'm sure gw or Dave will chime in to clarify and verify if I am just talking from my rectum or actually have some validity...
I'm sure gw or Dave will chime in to clarify and verify if I am just talking from my rectum or actually have some validity...
What kind of run times are you getting on those tr21's.
Does the ext420 actually have a faster recovery rate compared to the modified 59025. My understanding is it essentially the 50925 with ptfe seals and no need to modify pistons for faster recovery.....Dave am I wrong in thinking this?
While I can appreciate your spit balling, it's seems like your complicating things unnecessarily. I'll be plumbing up the 59025 first week of the new year. Maybe then we can discuss actual operations times, problems and ideas.
Does the ext420 actually have a faster recovery rate compared to the modified 59025. My understanding is it essentially the 50925 with ptfe seals and no need to modify pistons for faster recovery.....Dave am I wrong in thinking this?
While I can appreciate your spit balling, it's seems like your complicating things unnecessarily. I'll be plumbing up the 59025 first week of the new year. Maybe then we can discuss actual operations times, problems and ideas.
I don't have a tr21 yet but that's what I'm leaning towards when workload increases and budget allows. I don't have the means for the compressor at this point. Just an appion and promax that needs seals.
I also thought that the ext420 is the modified 59025 with better seals and stainless steel.
Does this mean your modified 59025 is now rated for 0hg?
Watch out for spitballs.
I thought of espresso machines with boilers that I have worked on before with heating elements, pressure switches, flow meters, and solenoids. I don't have any background like gws with inert welding chambers etc. I was just trying to give option for a foolproof way to run it in both formations taking out the manually operated ball valve. Gw already has made/designed the automated mark v so an automated ext420 or modified 59025 to go with it seemed pretty relevant to me. Besides gw kept bumping the thread so I thought I'd keep some dialog going. Dave said the ext420 has twice the flow rate. I don't know if that means its twice as fast as I have ran two appions and the complete run time was not half of the run time compared to one appion..
(Puts down straw and puts spitballs back in desk)
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Regarding the questions about pulling vacuum, while I know that my research is not complete, I have met with OEM's in Washington, Oregon, California and Colorado (some are very big names in the industry). In all of my meetings, pulling vacuum was never discussed, I was told by most everyone that suction pressures would be about 50 psig, pumping up to about 150 psig. That is why the EXT420 is configured the way it was (this is also detailed in some of the very early postings on this thread).
As I have also described, the EXT420 is similar, but not the same as the 59025-3. Both have PTFE and viton seal packages. However, the EXT420 displaces 19.6 cubic inches per stroke, while the 59025 will only displace 10 cubic inches per stroke. The difference is because the 59025 is a two-stage unit, which means that the gas gets pumped twice while it's in the pump, this allows the 59025 to pull vacuum. The EXT420 is a single-stage unit, which means the gas is only pumped once while it's in the pump, but this makes it very inefficient with low inlet pressures. Additionally, the EXT420 has all stainless steel connection fittings (the 59025 uses plated steel) and the EXT420 also has all the vent ports captured to make it easy to vent any leaked gas (should be very minimal) to a safe location.
I have been told by a couple of OEM's that reconfigured the 59025 to a single-stage unit (basically an EXT420 prototype) that it cut their transfer times almost in half compared to the 59025-3.
Thanks for the questions, keep them coming!
Dave
As I have also described, the EXT420 is similar, but not the same as the 59025-3. Both have PTFE and viton seal packages. However, the EXT420 displaces 19.6 cubic inches per stroke, while the 59025 will only displace 10 cubic inches per stroke. The difference is because the 59025 is a two-stage unit, which means that the gas gets pumped twice while it's in the pump, this allows the 59025 to pull vacuum. The EXT420 is a single-stage unit, which means the gas is only pumped once while it's in the pump, but this makes it very inefficient with low inlet pressures. Additionally, the EXT420 has all stainless steel connection fittings (the 59025 uses plated steel) and the EXT420 also has all the vent ports captured to make it easy to vent any leaked gas (should be very minimal) to a safe location.
I have been told by a couple of OEM's that reconfigured the 59025 to a single-stage unit (basically an EXT420 prototype) that it cut their transfer times almost in half compared to the 59025-3.
Thanks for the questions, keep them coming!
Dave
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Thanx dave.
I'm suprised that other big name extractors haven't mentioned pulling vac. I would imagine that if it was an issue a large scale extractor would have mentioned it. But all we have to compare to is much smaller refridgerant recovery pumps, which the Haskel is much faster than.
Perhaps its not much of an issue that its a single stage pump since its powered by a large screw compressor?
If the two stage orientation is more effective for pulling vac maybe switching from single stage to two stage via ball valve set up you mentioned in the previous page would make it even faster once inlet pressure is at 0hg?
I'm suprised that other big name extractors haven't mentioned pulling vac. I would imagine that if it was an issue a large scale extractor would have mentioned it. But all we have to compare to is much smaller refridgerant recovery pumps, which the Haskel is much faster than.
Perhaps its not much of an issue that its a single stage pump since its powered by a large screw compressor?
If the two stage orientation is more effective for pulling vac maybe switching from single stage to two stage via ball valve set up you mentioned in the previous page would make it even faster once inlet pressure is at 0hg?
Our only single stage conversion is in the field and the owner over the hill and far away for the holidaze, so I haven't been able to query him on vacuum level, but he made no mention of it before leaving. I will follow up with him, or one of the other local single stage operators, to see how low he can go.
WolfWurx is currently out of stock, though I can probably borrow one from an associate or client and hook a gauge on it to see what it will pull down to single stage at 100 psi air supply.
Dave, do you know what one will pull down to on the bench, dead headed with a gauge?
WolfWurx is currently out of stock, though I can probably borrow one from an associate or client and hook a gauge on it to see what it will pull down to single stage at 100 psi air supply.
Dave, do you know what one will pull down to on the bench, dead headed with a gauge?
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Gray Wolf, if we've done any testing like that, I'm not familiar with it and the factory is closed right now, so there isn't anyone I can check with. I do know that it will depend on the outlet pressure, that is, if you are only pumping the gas to 50 psig, you will be able to pull to a lower pressure than if you are pumping to 150 psig.
I'll be very interested to hear how low you can go.
Dave
Dave at Haskel
Active member
Looks like I will have to punt Dave! The owner of the single stage Mk IVB I hoped to test, continues to be out of state, and the two new pumps WolfWurx has reserved at HIS, are back ordered.
Carla still has one in the box, but is out of state consulting as we speak, so I will try to contact her today and see if I can borrow hers. If so, I'll run the test today.
Her mail box was full my last attempt, so now that the factory is open, is there any chance someone could conduct tests there, just in case I continue to stumble?
Dave at Haskel
Active member
