Inducing quick bud set, and decreasing internodal distance with silicic acid?

EclipseFour20 · Dec 4, 2014

Only Ornamental said:
....
Regarding DE:
I couldn't find anything I call reliable which shows that the many benefits of DE are caused by absorbed silicic acid itself and not its physiochemical properties.

Probably will not--but one has to ask why is there an increase in Si, both soil and plant tissue soon after a DE application. Sometimes generating better results than other sources of Si. (ie that barley experiment I discussed earlier)...like why it took SiO2 (chemically pure variety) 5 times the amount of NPK to produce the same 0.30 grams that DE produced with less NPK. Is it because DE is 5 x more efficient? Or is it because SiO2 is less efficient by a factor of 5?

Explain that one please. It truly is a mystery to me.

Also, most studies have concluded the cost/benefit of using Potassium Silicate as the source of Si for most field operations is no bueno. Fast leaching and cost are the common reasons; other affordable sources of Si are available.

glow · Dec 6, 2014

Only Ornamental said:
I hope you guys don't mind me joining the game with a half-off/half-on topic reply .

Did it ever occur to you that commercial 'orthosilicic acid' preparations are either stabilised or polymerised?

One of the more often cited preparations (which also has the most patent claims -> which BTW don't prove anything, you can claim whatever you want...) regarding stabilised silicic acid is a mixture with boric acid and a polyol such as glycerol or sorbitol. There are other preparations using quaternary amines as stabiliser and/or other polyols like PEGs. All these have a very low pH. So far, I just found one preparation which differs considerably and has for example a high pH; it's sold as food additive in solid form but it's not very unstable once in solution.

Anyway, increasing the concentration of Si also increases that of the other additives. Boron is an essential element but fairly toxic at elevated levels. Additionally, glycerol is known to stunt plant growth (Glow already mentioned the trade-off with the immune response) too and sorbitol is a know 'in vivo complexant' of boron making it more mobile in plants (naturally in Rosaceae) and hence might increase boron bioavailability and ultimately toxicity. Most quaternary ammonium salts are anything but great and even the few natural ones show negative effects on plant growth at higher concentrations.

So, reducing stretch with certain products might entirely be caused by adverse effects of additives .
Then again, silicic acid at physiological pH is very unstable and the actual form (oligo-/polymer, complex) and hence bioavailability depends mainly on concentration, pH, and the presence of bivalent cations such as calcium. Under most setting, silicic acid is very hard to overdose without getting indirect effects (such as calcium or iron deficiency).

Regarding DE:
I couldn't find anything I call reliable which shows that the many benefits of DE are caused by absorbed silicic acid itself and not its physiochemical properties.

Agree completely re being able to say anything on patents - the patent system is a joke and often the claims made in patents can't be repeated on labels where labeling compliance laws are enforced . Basically though you wouldn't use DE in hydroponics - not suitable at all unless applied to the media (perhaps for coir or peat but frankly I'd prefer to apply via solution with K silicate etc until the research is in, which it very much is with K silicate etc in hydroponics. The lack of research in general is worrying given all the big and largely unsupported claims that are being made.

Skunkbeard · Dec 7, 2014

If you manipulate your night/day temps you'll decrease internode distance without adding any growth regulators.

glow · Dec 7, 2014

Skunkbeard said:
If you manipulate your night/day temps you'll decrease internode distance without adding any growth regulators.

Covered that one and SAS/light colour spectrum as well. This one deserves a thread of its own.

JointOperation · Dec 7, 2014

just keep your lights on and lights off temps as close as possible. stops stretch allows for great colas.

glow · Dec 9, 2014

JointOperation said:
just keep your lights on and lights off temps as close as possible. stops stretch allows for great colas.

I personally have found this one very ineffective - perhaps it's genetic dependent although even with predominantly indica genetics stretch was only reduced by a few percent. The DIF reduces it by about 20-25%. What day and night temperature are you talking about though?

Redrum92 · Jun 14, 2015

Acetylsalicylcic acid is aspirin, salic acids are from Willow, and salicyclic acid is in anti acne soaps etc and does about a million different things for plants- increase roots and growth increase disease/infection resistance, nute intake, IMHO it is the most underrated chemical for a grow

Only Ornamental · Jun 14, 2015

Redrum92 said:
...salic acids are from Willow, and salicyclic acid is in anti acne soaps...IMHO it is the most underrated chemical for a grow

Salicin is from willows and is not an acid but an alcohol-derivative.
Anti-acne products contain salicylic acid, not salicyclic acid (also true for your Aspirin).
Salicylic acid is only good in veg and early flowering because it reduces trichome production. Also, I'm not sure how far the trade-off of inducing SAR (or ISR for that matter) reduces yield...
There certainly are other chemicals/naturals which are more underrated. To me, it looks like SA is/was in quite a few products (JA and chitosan are fortunately taking over).

Mr.Mist · Jul 12, 2015

Try amino acids throughout your grow or foliar spray Bio-Cozyme once in week 1 and once in week 2 of flowering, at a concentration of 10mL/Gal.

Armor Kote is a great silica IMO..
It guarantees 7.5% silicate(according to the label), 3% of wich is mono silicic acid(not mentioned on label), if I remember correctly..

And blue light will greatly reduce stretch. Find some different blue grow lights with "extra blue" in it, and look at the emballage.. Often there will be a little graph indicating intensity of different wave lengths.. Choose a bulb with alot of "sky blue"(460nm)..

Just remember that red lights promotes root growth and should not be neglected..
Also, UVA and UVB promotes resin production, since the trichomes act as a sun screen, and therefore should not be left out during ripening/flushing..

<3

mojave green · Jul 24, 2015

Only Ornamental · Jul 24, 2015

westriver said:
Looking for product testers for a multi-catalystic liquid which increases the photosynthesis capability of the plant...all natural...no heavy metals...msds available... initial test show a decrease in time to flower along w a increase in size and weight... expenses paid...

A multi-cataclysmic liquid? You don't say!

Seriously, what is multi-catalystic?
Though I suppose nearly none of the ingredients have to be listed in the MSDS, I'd still like to have a look at it if possible

.
Expenses paid? You mean, if I get myself an indoor garden you pay the equipment and electricity bill? That sounds very exciting!

mack 10 · Jul 24, 2015

I'll test it. But will be totally honest.

vitamingreeninc · Jul 24, 2015

I will as well, but you need to get 50 posts mannnn

glow · Jul 26, 2015

Only Ornamental said:
A multi-cataclysmic liquid? You don't say! Seriously, what is multi-catalystic?
Though I suppose nearly none of the ingredients have to be listed in the MSDS, I'd still like to have a look at it if possible .
Expenses paid? You mean, if I get myself an indoor garden you pay the equipment and electricity bill? That sounds very exciting!

Lol yeah hey maybe they've bottled CO2 enrichment...

Dkgrower · Jul 28, 2015

This is a good read for all you silica fans..

Here is a pdf and at page 562 there is a run down of what inputs are best to use in plants

http://www.siliforce.com/pdf/7c/Snyder Mati Les effets du Silicium.pdf

I guess organic Silica like rice hulls ect are better than mineral types..

stoned-trout · Jul 28, 2015

I don't like snake oils and stuff made for ornamentals..if I want a short compact fast flowering plant I get one ...my days of using bushmaster,gravity and such long long over..natural mostly organic and I don't panic..yeehaw....silica is mandatory in my garden

WAStatefire · Sep 5, 2015

fasilitor is silicic acid, so is dutchmasters silica, and also cyco's silica. dutchmaster did it first, its just the matter of whos the cheapest at mL/gal rate

smurfin'herb · Sep 6, 2015

@WASstate fire. Those products are silicon dioxide, not orthosilicic acid.

Theophilus · Nov 24, 2016

There's a somewhat new silica on the market known as Power Si that contains BOTH potassium silicate and monosilicic acid for those that are interested. I'm not a rep for them. I just happen to run a hydro shop and it's now something we carry. I was trying to search for some info that I thought might be somewhere online and found this thread discussing various forms of silica.

Avenger · Nov 27, 2016

..

Inducing quick bud set, and decreasing internodal distance with silicic acid?

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