Coco grow veg problem day 21

Mart1n · Jan 9, 2017

Hi everyone!

Thought maybe someone could share their wisdom, as I am out of thoughts this time. This is my fifth coco grow. There have always been some yellowing problems in past starting seedlings, but never this far into vegetative growth.

Plants: 2 x dinfem Original Amnesia fem.
Both plants 21 days from sprout (as you can see one plant is behind in growth for some reason)
Medium: 100% Canna coco Professional Plus
Feeding: Hand watering every other day with tap water PH 5.7-6.0 (water stays 1 day in room temperature and PH brought down with vinegar before feed). 10-20% run-off with PH 6.0 (Also 2 times I let them almost completely dry). Using canna coco A+B 1.2 - 1.5 ml / Liter .
As this seemed first typical cal-mag def I foliar sprayed them with epsom salt (5-6 times). Also added some epsom salt to feeding water. Stopped giving epsom salt 4 days ago, as this didnt seem to help.
Light: First used 125W CFL, but as I got my first ever HID system going, now I use 400W HPS (Superplant Agro for veg and flowering, 30% blue spectrum added). I plan to use this light to the end. Light is 18 inches=45 cm away from plant tops.
Setting: 1 x 1 x 2 meter grow tent BlackBox Silver. I have two fans blowing in tent constantly (1 straight to plants, other straight to light bulb)
Temps: 89-90F (30-32C). I know not ideal, but I have grown in past with this this temp. No big problems

As you can see from photos the older leaves are browning and die. New growth first seems green, but after 1-2 days yellowing starts again. Also the smaller plant seems more affected by it, stunted growth.

PS. I also did a full flush with PH-d water 6 days ago (I fed them too much: 2ml A+B). After flush things seemed greener for a while. But now the yellowing is back....

Thanks for your thoughts!

kushedy · Jan 9, 2017

I have no experience with the canna nutrient range so I can't tell you if there is an issue with the amount of nutrient you have mixed but with coco I would feed them on a daily basis & I have also found that allowing a ph drift when feeding has helped with my own grows. I normally mix a large bucket of nutrients at ph 5.5. Over a week the ph of the nutrients gradually drifts up to 6.0. At that point (if any left) I reset it to 5.5.
May be worth giving them a flush & then feeding daily allowing the ph to drift a bit.

mango420 · Jan 9, 2017

What size containers are those in? They look a bit small to be feeding till runoff every other day. U know how may ppm that feed is? And just so you know, just because your high temps weren't a huge problem on other grows, it will have different affects on different strains.

Itsmychoice · Jan 9, 2017

You will be good

You will be good

They are just still adjusting. Changing lights stresses them a little and 90 is pretty hot for little ones especially if the humidity isn't real high but they are resilient and will overcome once they get bigger. Your feeding strength is about right and I wouldn't increase it until the fourth or so week of flower. It will work itself out. Just let them dry out a little and feed them well mixed nutes drifting ph between 5.8-6.2. Try lemon juice as a ph down or purchase a quality version that gets you where you need it with very little used. Check humidity just to know. If you flush in the future use half strength nutrients unless it's your final flush.

Mart1n · Jan 9, 2017

Hey. Thanks for the opinions! I was reading an article about light burn (http://www.growweedeasy.com/cannabis-light-burn) . Can it be that my 400W HPS is doing that to the girls? Because the feeding schedule should be OK, as I have used Canna A+B always in past grows. At the same I remember that slight yellowing was going on even with my CFL light (picture attached). Also today came to check the plants, and I think they are contiuneing the yellowing and browning (bottom leaves for now are crisp and half-dead). Photos attached also from today.
I think I will flush them again with half-strength nutes (0,6 ml / 1L A+B). The new growth is always promising and green, but in 2 days the yellow takes over and turnes them almost pale....

Caligreen1 · Jan 9, 2017

I'm an old grower now growing again. used to do pure coco, now im running a coco/soil mix for a new grow and I'm seeing similar yellowing....I think that you just burned em a bit, I overfed just by a ML or 2 and am seeing the same. Also maybe you want to back off of tap water? Unless you know yours is pretty clean.

Bush Dr · Jan 9, 2017

Using Canna A&B during veg is not recommended, it's light on N, which is what you're seeing

Don't foliar feed or give them anything else, just change your feed to a decent Grow feed, ph 6.0

They're showing signs of being underfed and that fits Canna

Student Of Life · Jan 10, 2017

1.5mL/L comes out to about 5.7mL/G, which I'll round up to 6. In my calculations, each mL/G of Canna A&B raises ppms by about 65. So you're feeding them about 390ppms atm correct?

What is the ppm of your tap? You say you foliar fed them epsoms 5-6 times. At what concentration was the foliar mixture, and at what interval were those 5-6 times (every day, every other day, all in same day, etc)? And how much epsoms did you add to the water when feeding (not foliar)?

IndoorScore · Jan 10, 2017

Bush Dr said:
Using Canna A&B during veg is not recommended, it's light on N, which is what you're seeing

Don't foliar feed or give them anything else, just change your feed to a decent Grow feed, ph 6.0

They're showing signs of being underfed and that fits Canna

Interesting, I feel like I am going to run up against this as well. Any suggestions as to supplements or such to go along with the canna a+b for veg? Lots of people seemed to think just running a+b and a little calmag would put you in good shape with RO water.

Mart1n · Jan 10, 2017

Student Of Life said:
1.5mL/L comes out to about 5.7mL/G, which I'll round up to 6. In my calculations, each mL/G of Canna A&B raises ppms by about 65. So you're feeding them about 390ppms atm correct?

What is the ppm of your tap? You say you foliar fed them epsoms 5-6 times. At what concentration was the foliar mixture, and at what interval were those 5-6 times (every day, every other day, all in same day, etc)? And how much epsoms did you add to the water when feeding (not foliar)?

I don`t measure ppm, never have. I just have my PH-pen and going with it. 1.5 ml / 1L is less than canna recommends on their homepage.

I made mixture of 1.5ml / 1L in tap water with epsom salt. I added this 2 times (1 time a day x 2 days) to soil. Also sprayed with same mixture 1 time a day.

As I had response that could be Magnesium def. from other site/forum, I did this yesterday: As Mg is absorbed with higher PH (6.5) : gave them epsom salt-watering. 1.5 ml dissolved in hot water and added it to 1L tap water PH´d to 6.3 . Both plants received 1L of such solution. No nutes added this time.

Now I let them just dry out for 2 days and see if any change....

PS. I have had beautiful results in past with coco, but I have always added 20-30% perlite. I just FORGOT (stupid!!) to add it this time...and maybe only 100% coco is not good medium at all??

Loc Dog · Jan 10, 2017

Try to stay in the golden range on this chart, or plants will not do as well -

Read through this, or skim first to compare pictures to your problems -

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688

Also, the most common problem for new coco growers is watering too much when young and roots have not developed. You want the container to get light, without the surface drying out before feeding. In flower, water all you want. Drying out causes salt buildup and PH to rise, so should flush occasionally.

Just my advice, which could be wrong. I gave up on coco and went to RDWC.

Chevy cHaze · Jan 10, 2017

Hmmm I think I've seen this in my plants on coco before... but only on no name coco that I didn't charge with lime...
This should not be a problem at all in Canna coco though...
Poor Ca absorption due a to wet feet ?... sounds funny with coco, but it can happen.

I always tend to mix a bit of powdered lime into the coco.

EastCoast710 · Jan 10, 2017

Bush Dr said:
Using Canna A&B during veg is not recommended, it's light on N, which is what you're seeing

Don't foliar feed or give them anything else, just change your feed to a decent Grow feed, ph 6.0

They're showing signs of being underfed and that fits Canna

lol

ya that fits canna lol.. no fucking way. canna is the easiest shit ever.. look at my results with it in my photos.. they only get better . so hmm

looks like under fed.. raise your nutes.. and if growing coco .. get a ec /tds meter.. it will save you

TanzanianMagic · Jan 10, 2017

Mart1n said:
Hi everyone!

Thought maybe someone could share their wisdom, as I am out of thoughts this time. This is my fifth coco grow. There have always been some yellowing problems in past starting seedlings, but never this far into vegetative growth.

Plants: 2 x dinfem Original Amnesia fem.
Both plants 21 days from sprout (as you can see one plant is behind in growth for some reason)
Medium: 100% Canna coco Professional Plus
Feeding: Hand watering every other day with tap water PH 5.7-6.0 (water stays 1 day in room temperature and PH brought down with vinegar before feed). 10-20% run-off with PH 6.0 (Also 2 times I let them almost completely dry). Using canna coco A+B 1.2 - 1.5 ml / Liter .
As this seemed first typical cal-mag def I foliar sprayed them with epsom salt (5-6 times). Also added some epsom salt to feeding water. Stopped giving epsom salt 4 days ago, as this didnt seem to help.
Light: First used 125W CFL, but as I got my first ever HID system going, now I use 400W HPS (Superplant Agro for veg and flowering, 30% blue spectrum added). I plan to use this light to the end. Light is 18 inches=45 cm away from plant tops.
Setting: 1 x 1 x 2 meter grow tent BlackBox Silver. I have two fans blowing in tent constantly (1 straight to plants, other straight to light bulb)
Temps: 89-90F (30-32C). I know not ideal, but I have grown in past with this this temp. No big problems

As you can see from photos the older leaves are browning and die. New growth first seems green, but after 1-2 days yellowing starts again. Also the smaller plant seems more affected by it, stunted growth.

PS. I also did a full flush with PH-d water 6 days ago (I fed them too much: 2ml A+B). After flush things seemed greener for a while. But now the yellowing is back....

Thanks for your thoughts!

The best thing to do is feed with:

0.2 EC of high P/K late flowering nutes
0.2 EC of Canna A+B (mix A into water first, then B), then adjust EC and then pH to 6.0 with proper pH down, not vinegar.

If you use R/O filtered water, re-mineralise the water with a small drop per quart of a micro-nutrient solution like GHE's B'Essentials.

Let r/o filtered water sit in magnesium lime overnight, and then mix 1/4 to 3/4 ordinary R/O filtered water. This is enough to replace the calcium and magnesium filtered from the water, and works on coco grows and soil or soil-less grows.

Notice that these minute quantities are not intended to feed micros to the plant, but to replace the minerals removed from the R/O filtered water.

When you get to flowering, add a sulphur source (epsom salt, gypsum), because sulphur has a huge impact on taste in many plants, including cannabis and wasabi, for instance.

When you feed with high P/K solutions, you are massively increasing the root growth of the plant. This means a much more resilient plant, more drought resistant. It also means that much more of the nutrients are available to the plant because more roots penetrate the medium. That means you can use much lower nutrient concentrations. And you don't need nearly as much nitrogen, which tends to burn plant roots anyway.

Mart1n · Jan 10, 2017

Thank you all kindly for your thoughts on this. It seems there are SO many different opinions (as suspected), that if I would listen to all of you (to feed less, to feed more, to give more Magnesium, not to give at all), then my plants most probably would be dead for sure....so I guess I just have to hope they come out of this without my further interruptions

Mart1n · Jan 10, 2017

PS. I also cut out a fragment of one photo that I think shows the deficiency most precise. Below.

Student Of Life · Jan 10, 2017

Mart1n said:
I don`t measure ppm, never have. I just have my PH-pen and going with it. 1.5 ml / 1L is less than canna recommends on their homepage.

You never mentioned how much epsoms you added, nor what the ppm of the tap water you're using for all of this is. It's very important to measure ppms man. This way, you have a journal to look back on and reference when things go wrong.

It's possible that you turned a small deficiency (calcium or one of the NPKs) into a bigger problem by adding too much mag via high ppm tap water + too much epsoms. We'll never know, since we don't know the ppms of the epsoms or the ppms of the tap. I did this same thing earlier in my grow. I noticed a slight deficiency of most likely calcium, and I added 5mL+ of calmag to seedlings. It toasted them, and they showed similar symptoms that yours are showing. And 5 of the 24 plants haven't recovered to this day, 40 days later.

I'm not an experienced enough grower to know what's going on in your garden. What I do know is that you'll help the more experience guys figure your issue out if you properly catalog your ppms and pH every feeding and note how often you've been feeding.

Mart1n · Jan 10, 2017

Student Of Life said:
You never mentioned how much epsoms you added

From my post from Page 1:

I made mixture of 1.5ml / 1L in tap water with epsom salt. I added this 2 times (1 time a day x 2 days) to soil. Also sprayed with same mixture 1 time a day.

I measured epsom salt with syringe: 1.5ml and added to 1L tap water (no nutes) two times. Also same mixture for foliar feeding.

TanzanianMagic · Jan 11, 2017

Mart1n said:
From my post from Page 1:

I made mixture of 1.5ml / 1L in tap water with epsom salt. I added this 2 times (1 time a day x 2 days) to soil. Also sprayed with same mixture 1 time a day.

I measured epsom salt with syringe: 1.5ml and added to 1L tap water (no nutes) two times. Also same mixture for foliar feeding.

Most likely you're overfeeding. It is very difficult to get a consistent nutrient concentration without measuring PPM/EC. Including reading the run-off if necessary.

I know you're getting a lot of very different advice.

Try it my way anyway, I can vouch for it and it will work.

And get a good, cheap EC meter. Mine is super cheap from China, about $35 on ebay, and it measures pH to 2 digits after the zero, and temperature. Buy one cheap, because if it fails, you'll need to buy another one. Also, when they're new, let them stand in filtered water for a few days, so the sensor can hydrate.

Mart1n · Jan 11, 2017

So, checked the situation today (after the epsom-salt watering 2 days ago / no nutes). And as you can see from photos there is actually real progress and new growth looks green. So what can be concluded? This whole mess was actually Magnesium deficiency? I really-really hope the new growth stays green and lush! I fed her 1.3 ml / 1L A+B with PH 6.0. Or should I continue adding epsom too?

As for the other / smaller plant - the progress has been minimal (still not much new growth, maybe a little more greener though). I decided to transplant her in new 30% perlite / coco mix. Hope this gets more air to her roots, as the roots were really tiny and narrow. The transplant was not easy for her: many roots did break off. I hope she recovers - let`s see how it goes....fingers crossed!

Coco grow veg problem day 21

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