Terp Trommel!

HG23 · May 16, 2016

It looks like the Trommel is setup as a WFE and not a molecular still because of the external main condenser.

I have been lead to believe that the path in this type of system is long enough to allow molecular collisions that would hamper the system's ability to reach true high vacuum (.001 torr) that in turn allows distillation at the lowest possible temps. WFE's have been suggested to me as replacements for stripping ethanol but not for distilling cannabis oil. That advice was, however, coming from a still manufacturing company so it was taken with a grain of salt as molecular still equipment is more expensive.

GW the Trommel runs at 200C, right? It seems like you took the specs from your research with the Kuge and worked off those for the Trommel.

Breakover, I'm confused, why do you run your Pope at 100mtorr? Your listed temp of 132C is nice and low, but shouldn't the vacuum reading be closer to the high vacuum range of 1mtorr or less? I got some quotes from Pope and it looks like they only supply a sliding vane Edwards with the still (medium vacuum range), no diffusion booster. Did you happen to question them on that? I'm suspecting maybe it's not necassary.

I have also been lead to believe that the molecular stills can be run at parameters to collect a clear, useful terpene fraction that is not an automatic throw away given the right starting material. Does the fact that the Trommel is a WFE setup hamper its ability to run at a low enough temperature to not thermally degrade the terpene fraction?

Honestly, collecting the terpene fraction isn't important to me. The oil I would use to feed the still isn't highly pleasant. But if that's the only difference between the capabilities of a WFE and a molecular still the decision of which system to go with will be easy.

Breakover · May 17, 2016

Well, I'm still learning but at first blush it doesn't seem necessary to run super high vacuum. My Pope came with an Edwards 3 so I don't think it's even capable of 1mtorr. Lowest I've seen it get is around 50mtorr. The guys at Pope said my target vac range is 100mtorr to 1 Torr, and I haven't done any experiments below 100mtorr yet.

Breakover · May 17, 2016

I will say I've narrowed it down to between 500 and 100mtorr. Sweet spot seems to be about 200. I risk getting streaks when I run below 200.

I don't get the 1l/hr claimed process time though. A liter takes 4-6 hrs at least.

I'm guessing the runtimes are the difference between 100mtorr and 1 mTorr, but that's just a guess.

HG23 · May 18, 2016

That's interesting man. I always see the Helderpad people posting pictures of their Pirani gauges reading in the high vacuum range (less than 1 mtorr) but I don't know their evap temps. The VTA systems also look like they have a diffusion pump.

You must be running a 2" system, right? They told me about .5L/hr for that one. When you say a liter takes 4-6 hours is that just for one pass, or does that include multiple passes to get it to finished quality?

My Pope estimates included an external condenser for all the systems which I found slightly confusing. It was meant to go between the evaporator and cold trap. Do you have one on your system?

The thing that gets me is that IMO, if you're getting an honest throughput of .25L/hr, the cost of the system is not justified compared to the bench top systems with a boiling flask and hot plate. I have seen Roji claim on IG that his custom lab glass setup can now do 1200ml THC/hr. That's pretty good and is likely less costly than a 35k still. Where the numbers really start to make more sense for the stills is when they are made from stainless. It seems to more or less double the efficiency.

Pharmer Joe told me the Trommel's claimed 1L/hr feed rate is on the conservative end and represents true single pass separation. I have the Helderpad numbers here and they claim 5L/hr on their 4" SS model but Ill bet that is slightly inflated and may not represent a single pass number. I am ready to go see the Trommel in action when a unit is available so hopefully I'll have more to report on that front.

Breakover · May 18, 2016

HG23 said:
That's interesting man. I always see the Helderpad people posting pictures of their Pirani gauges reading in the high vacuum range (less than 1 mtorr) but I don't know their evap temps. The VTA systems also look like they have a diffusion pump.

You must be running a 2" system, right? They told me about .5L/hr for that one. When you say a liter takes 4-6 hours is that just for one pass, or does that include multiple passes to get it to finished quality?

My Pope estimates included an external condenser for all the systems which I found slightly confusing. It was meant to go between the evaporator and cold trap. Do you have one on your system?

The thing that gets me is that IMO, if you're getting an honest throughput of .25L/hr, the cost of the system is not justified compared to the bench top systems with a boiling flask and hot plate. I have seen Roji claim on IG that his custom lab glass setup can now do 1200ml THC/hr. That's pretty good and is likely less costly than a 35k still. Where the numbers really start to make more sense for the stills is when they are made from stainless. It seems to more or less double the efficiency.

Pharmer Joe told me the Trommel's claimed 1L/hr feed rate is on the conservative end and represents true single pass separation. I have the Helderpad numbers here and they claim 5L/hr on their 4" SS model but Ill bet that is slightly inflated and may not represent a single pass number. I am ready to go see the Trommel in action when a unit is available so hopefully I'll have more to report on that front.

No, I usually have to do multiple passes to get our desired color. Two if I'm lucky and more if it's super dirty. Yes, this is on a 2" pope. Usually the first pass is much quicker and hotter so it's probably 2-3 hrs/liter.

We have the external condenser. It's supposed to use tap water for cooling, but I ended up building a sub freezing (not subzero) chiller because there was way too much condensate ending up in the cold trap, especially during the first pass, which I run at higher temps than the 'finish' parameters posted earlier. That seemed to fix the problem and now we get lots of terps in the external condenser flask. Most of the time they smell horrid, but sometimes they don't. It's input material related I'm sure. It's helped immensely during degassing as well.

I'm sure there is something that could increase the throughput, but I'm afraid it may just be a deeper vacuum is required. I will continue to play with the parameters until I figure out how to increase throughput.

There is a fine balance between vac, temp, feed rate, and wiper speed. It's been a tremendous challenge getting things dialed this far. Almost ready to pay for a class or something lol.

HG23 · May 20, 2016

Sounds like the internal condenser can be easily overloaded. I wonder if they have ever experimented with a wiped condenser to help the issue or if that's too difficult to setup.

The Helderpad people said the evaporator:condenser surface area ratio is likely to blame for that issue when they were explaining the coiled Dimroth condensers they use in their larger still models.

I'm curious what that ratio is on the Trommel.

Have you experimented with winterizing the distillate and not the starting crude? I've heard it works and can save some money in freezers/rotavaps/ethanol.

Breakover · May 20, 2016

HG23 said:
Sounds like the internal condenser can be easily overloaded. I wonder if they have ever experimented with a wiped condenser to help the issue or if that's too difficult to setup.

The Helderpad people said the evaporator:condenser surface area ratio is likely to blame for that issue when they were explaining the coiled Dimroth condensers they use in their larger still models.

I'm curious what that ratio is on the Trommel.

Have you experimented with winterizing the distillate and not the starting crude? I've heard it works and can save some money in freezers/rotavaps/ethanol.

Yes, I started that way actually. Wasn't too keen on having residual solvent in my sauce tho.

A wiped condenser would be slick. I think they have a stainless condenser available for the 2".

HG23 · May 20, 2016

Ah, good point.

Thanks for your input here man. It has been tough to get people operating cannabis stills to open up about their real world experience and run parameters.

I think the Trommel is still under development or something so GW is keeping tight lipped about it while they push out the Vapor Hawgs for now.

Breakover · May 20, 2016

HG23 said:
Ah, good point.

Thanks for your input here man. It has been tough to get people operating cannabis stills to open up about their real world experience and run parameters.

I think the Trommel is still under development or something so GW is keeping tight lipped about it while they push out the Vapor Hawgs for now.

Yeah, the whole distillate scene is a bit too secretive for my taste, I guess I can see why in a way.

However, the concentrate tech advanced as quickly as it did because people shared information. Information can be dangerous. Especially to profits. :tiphat:

HG23 · May 20, 2016

Yes, I agree with you on that. I've heard prices as high as 8k for units of distillate.

I also agree with some of the panelists on Hash Church who say it's a race to the bottom. With the rates of cannabis production skyrocketing it seems inevitable. What it will come down to to be a successful extractor IMO, is networking and access to material. As others have pointed out, at this point extracting is not all that difficult, skill wise. Lots of people around here are doing it.

I can find so much "old" outdoor material from last season, or even the one before that it's shocking. It won't make a lovely dabbable oil but should still make some lovely distillate which is exactly my aim once I sort out which equipment to use.

Gotta go start my work for the day, have a good one man.

Chunkypigs · May 20, 2016

HG23 said:
….I've heard prices as high as 8k for units of distillate…...

as high as? you mean folks are vending for less than that?

1 unit = 45,359 10 mg doses for less than 18 cents a dose?

I wonder how long it will take before somebody builds a machine that will process metric tonnes a day and get the price below a penny?

easystephen · Oct 16, 2016

Breakover said:
I will say I've narrowed it down to between 500 and 100mtorr. Sweet spot seems to be about 200. I risk getting streaks when I run below 200.

I don't get the 1l/hr claimed process time though. A liter takes 4-6 hrs at least.

I'm guessing the runtimes are the difference between 100mtorr and 1 mTorr, but that's just a guess.

Very interesting, I just got a Pope still and if I feed at the recommended rate I don't seem to fully distill the material in a single pass. I realize this is an old post and you may have a totally different process now but can you tell me more about why you feed so slowly and what happens if you don't?

Gray Wolf · Oct 16, 2016

HG23 said:
Ah, good point.

Thanks for your input here man. It has been tough to get people operating cannabis stills to open up about their real world experience and run parameters.

I think the Trommel is still under development or something so GW is keeping tight lipped about it while they push out the Vapor Hawgs for now.

It looks like you can kiss both the Trommel and the VaporHawg goodby. Pharmgold just declared bankruptsy.

NorPene Solutions · Oct 16, 2016

Ouch, sorry to hear that GW. Wow that's not good news for the industry. Dead before they even got going. We been waiting in high anticipation to get a Trommel.

Gray Wolf · Oct 16, 2016

NorPene Solutions said:
Ouch, sorry to hear that GW. Wow that's not good news for the industry. Dead before they even got going. We been waiting in high anticipation to get a Trommel.

An interesting story, which I have a piece of paper in my hand saying I will be sued for discussing, sooooo more later after thangs sort out.

Team Sift · Oct 16, 2016

Man that sucks.

montroller · Oct 16, 2016

Guess my vaporhawg dreams are over.

SkyHighLer · Oct 16, 2016

Old Gold · Oct 16, 2016

How many I gotta buy? :dunno:

Sorry to hear this, I've heard nothing but great things about the involved crew. Best of luck to all, and thanks for the inspirational teasers, Pharmgold and friends!

Chunkypigs · Oct 17, 2016

Gray Wolf said:
An interesting story, which I have a piece of paper in my hand saying I will be sued for discussing, sooooo more later after thangs sort out.

that sucks!

I guess John was serious about coming down on you guys, he mentioned it a couple weeks ago on hash church.

does his patent predate the first closed loop systems here on IC?

thank "legalization" for this too.

Terp Trommel!

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