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How to Best PRESERVE a Strain with Limited Space/Effort

romanoweed

romanoweed

Well-known member
to Dank Frank , and to Happy times

Cubing, and Selfing especially may be an Option if i wouldnt keep The Line stay viable for Decades. Wouldnt work more then 10 Generations untill im in Consumtion-ready, but Endstadion of the Line i suggest.

Ok you say i could do it besides my open Pollination wich serves the actual Preservation, then its fine.

But if i have rare Genetic, i might wanna let it stay alive as looong as possible, and accept a certain Degree of Variation (or Drift if im not mixing Therms up now) . So i would rather avoid atleast the Selfing-Method since i see preserving as an important Task. Many Genetics are dying, and our Breeders cant save all Genetics themselve. And thats exactly what i would try to do BEST possible, before their Seedline runs out of Stock

And Even Cubing wich uses same Mom over and over would then also be very dangerous for messing my Line up, aswell reducing long viability of my Line.
Dont take my Word for it, correct me if im wrong. Just my guess.
Just discuss further on . Peace
 
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dank.frank

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Simply put, the way you are looking at it is wrong.

Preservation - requires the ABSENCE of outside gene pool dilution / contamination. You think outcrossing is your friend in this scenario because it provides you with a greater diversity - but that's creation not preservation.

Unless your pairings are with rather true breeding plants, for at least ONE given trait - then you'll never be able to really distinguish what is what in the massive polyhybrids we have now. In pretty much ANY F2 of any modern variety you have access to roughly half the entire known cannabis gene pool - in some form or recombination. Truly, hundreds of millions of different possibilites.

The purpose of selfing for this task, is to figure what females actually do in fact breed true or result in superior offspring in the next filial generation. An s1 still has massive variation in it because most are still polyhybrids. The only difference, the variation you are seeing, is the variation that exists ONLY within the female itself, before an introduction of outside genetics is presented. Selfing, even when planning to make m/f lines late down the road, is a tool that can still allow you to select THE BEST plant a female can possibly produce. Then, you don't need to find those attributes in the outcross to a male, you can bring them to the table to start with.

However, if you don't have a very specific set of breeding goals and if you don't have a map to remind you of what your specific goals are for each generation, hunting for the "best" without ever making any true progress or improvements.



dank.Frank
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
So you want to preserve as much genetic diversity in the strain as possible? Make sure you include pollen and seeds from all the plants, not just the healthy good looking ones. Why? For one, the not so great plants have genetics for other environments than yours. What does awesome inside your garden can often be a complete reversal when the same clone is moved to a different environment.

Whatever you do, I would make sure to save all pollen, and document what it is in excruciating detail. Properly dried and frozen, the pollen will last for at least 10 years.


I'd want to pollinate all the females with pollen from all the males, and also the reversed pollen from all the females. This would preserve quite a bit with smaller sample sizes, no?
 
romanoweed

romanoweed

Well-known member
Dank Frank
I just pointed out how your Idea is not reaching every Goal i implied in the Title of the thread. Thinking further, the positive Side of your Method came to my Mind, assumed it really works. It is: To perform a Selection with minimal Effort! And i thank for this Info. You described it very well in your Thread, (was it you? was well readable!)
If i understand with this Method described one would not have the Problem of : Plants he has choosen for Selection to look different than they are. The recessive Trait thingy, (or whatnot ,im newbie), or put it just: Plants only SEEM to lock like they are the desired good Pheno ones .

One could then trust his Eyes better, since a selfed Plant has a very stable Offspring . Something like breeding for Dummies. Not meant bad, just that Breeding is a complex Science. So yes, it would provide a good 2nd Part in my Preserving/Consuming-Plan.
However, the physical Effort is abit high, alltho there might be no smaller Setups.

But i have to add, Landraces are coming back abit.. But speaking for Hybridlovers your method seems legit/way to go Peace
 
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ahortator

ahortator

Well-known member
Veteran
How to Best PRESERVE a Strain with Limited Space/Effort?

Seeds vacuum sealed inside an airtight container or ziplock bag inside the frezer. It helps if you add some silica gel or rice.
 
ThePizzaMan

ThePizzaMan

Active member
Veteran
tissue culture or at the very least tissueponics. Its absolutely amazing what you can do with a bit of science and a small grow rack.

Cheers

TpM
 
dank.frank

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
romanoweed said:
Dank Frank
I just pointed out how your Idea is not reaching every Goal i implied in the Title of the thread. Thinking further, the positive Side of your Method came to my Mind, assumed it really works. It is: To perform a Selection with minimal Effort!
Click to expand...

A simple, minimal effort 7-10 year breeding plant. Right. Got it. Minimal effort. That's what I suggested! :tiphat:

I tried. :laughing:



dank.Frank
 
romanoweed

romanoweed

Well-known member
I was serious, it is minimal effort for the Mind. , instead of Learnign by googling the whole nice Summer long . maybe not minimal physical Effort.

I still want to know if there is some Alternatives... Tho

1st: Just learn how to Select by Hand, say 7 years of initial high learning/Mind-Effort, but not so many Projects (Selection for every single Trait separatly in DankFrans Method), and also no double Projects: open Pollination/selective Breeding, just single Selection..for Preservation and Consumption

2nd: open Pollination coupled with selection while at GrowingStage ! I mean renewing/preserving Seeds by open Polination all say 7 Years, but pulling bad plants out while early Growth? over the initial first years i may report my Grow with Pictures and Smokereport, and after couple initial years i might be able to see wich Plants are not my taste in early Growth..pull them out. Therefore i dont have so much Mindeffort, since my selection doesent have to care for the complicated Offspring-Prediction, its then based on only momentary Liking..

Im tending to the secound since my personal Taste doesent like the unnaturalness of Danksfrsnks Idea. But thats just me.
 
K

kamyo

Well-known member
Veteran
I have a similar task at hand with a cross I made without selecting parents. By that, I mean that I selected the genetics but no selection was made for parental traits. So to preserve this line for future runs and a better chance for a keeper, I plan on "open" pollination, although I use that term loosely because there will probably only be a few males and a handful of females. From then, I will have enough stock to grow some out and make selections leaning toward specific traits I'm after.

So I guess it comes down to the type of preservation, since several different types have been discussed.

Line preservation: open pollination to keep as much variety within the line as possible

Preserving specific traits: clone, s1, cubing

Preserving the actual seed stock: long-term seed storage techniques
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
romanoweed said:
2nd: open Pollination coupled with selection while at GrowingStage ! I mean renewing/preserving Seeds by open Polination all say 7 Years, but pulling bad plants out while early Growth?
Click to expand...
Did you skip over the part where those 'bad' plants are ones with genetics for other locations? Culling those means only folks with similar grow conditions to yours will get your results. Did you want to preserve the genetics or breed a new line? Culling creates a new line.

romanoweed said:
Im tending to the secound since my personal Taste doesent like the unnaturalness of Danksfrsnks Idea. But thats just me.
Click to expand...
The only thing un-natural about DankFranks method is your viewpoint on it. Femminizing (using sts or colloidal silver) is not some voodoo, change the dna of your plant process. You're not editing anything, you're not changing anything, you're simply stopping the production of ethylene gas so natural male flowers form instead of female.

Yes Frank, you did indeed try. Greatly appreciated. :tiphat:
 
dank.frank

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
What I stated in that sticky is certainly not "my method". It's just a basic breeding outline for ANY AND EVERY autogamous crop. It's standard protocol for so many crops I'd have to be an insane gate keeping egomaniac to even suggest such processes as "my idea".

It's what you learn when you study genetic text books instead of internet posts. I sincerely try to share what I've learned and to pass that knowledge along in a manner that borders on nuanced inaccuracies by using layman phrasing and terminology instead of proper botanical terms.

I think many of us are to the point where we all have old seeds and we want to try and save those lines or preserve them in some form as to not lose what was good about them. That's even harder when you sprout 100 seeds and only get a couple plants. What if you don't get a male? What if you really CAN'T make a proper selection because there just isn't much to select from. What if open-pollination literally only means the two or three seeds that managed to produce a viable plant???

I made that post - EXACTLY for the scenario you are describing. How to best achieve a positive outcome with limited space, using efficient and intelligent pairings in isolated familial pairings that can be recombined at ANY time to restore a specific desired attribute back into the gene pool if you happened to make a goof one generation and lose something. It happens. That's why the individual isolated plants are so immensely valuable in a small scale breeding program where you really CAN'T sort enough population to even accurately assess what is ACTUALLY, BOTANICALLY - dominant or recessive - which if you didn't know, is one of terminologies that is used incorrectly all the time by the cannabis community, when contrasted with traditional ag science.

I'm fine with that. I still use it incorrectly all the time, because I want people to understand the core of the message more than I do the nuances of grammar. There are a LOT of "uneducated" farmers who know more about the land than any person with a degree sitting in a laboratory some place.

I don't need to conform to convention - but - the breeding strategies and how we have approached such with cannabis - REALLY NEED TO CHANGE - if we want to see progress in the gene pool. You can't keep doing the same thing and some how magically expect marked improvement every generation. It doesn't work like that - no matter what the seed peddlers want you to think.

I'm not upset with you at all Romanweed - but like Douglas said above - it's you that needs to change the way you are thinking about approaching this.

I'd suggest you track down a copy of "Principles of Plant Genetics and Breeding" by George Acquaah or "Principles of Plant Breeding" by Allard.

I suggest EVERYONE do so, honestly. EVERYTHING you want to know is in those books, you just need a dictionary and hours with google scholar looking at examples to understand the principles put to use in theory.

I truly do wish you best of luck with your project - regardless of how you choose to pursue it!!! :tiphat:



dank.Frank
 
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beta

beta

Active member
Veteran
dank.frank said:
What I stated in that sticky is certainly not "my method". It's just a basic breeding outline for ANY AND EVERY autogamous crop. It's standard protocol for so many crops I'd have to be an insane gate keeping egomaniac to even suggest such processes as "my idea".

It's what you learn when you study genetic text books instead of internet posts. I sincerely try to share what I've learned and to pass that knowledge along in a manner that borders on nuanced inaccuracies by using layman phrasing and terminology instead of proper botanical terms.

I think many of us are to the point where we all have old seeds and we want to try and save those lines or preserve them in some form as to not loose what was good about them. That's even harder when you sprout 100 seeds and only get a couple plants. What if you don't get a male? What if you really CAN'T make a proper selection because there just isn't much to select from. What if open-pollination literally only means the two or three seeds that managed to produce a viable plant???

I made that post - EXACTLY for the scenario you are describing. How to best achieve a positive outcome with limited space, using efficient and intelligent pairings in isolated familial pairings that can be recombined at ANY time to restore a specific desired attribute back into the gene pool if you happened to make a goof one generation and loose something. It happens. That's why the individual isolated plants are so immensely valuable in a small scale breeding program where you really CAN'T sort enough population to even accurately assess what is ACTUALLY, BOTANICALLY - dominant or recessive - which if you didn't know, is one of terminologies that is used incorrectly all the time by the cannabis community, when contrasted with traditional ag science.

I'm fine with that. I still use it incorrectly all the time, because I want people to understand the core of the message more than I do the nuances of grammar. There are a LOT of "uneducated" farmers who know more about the land than any person with a degree sitting in a laboratory some place.

I don't need to conform to convention - but - the breeding strategies and how we have approached such with cannabis - REALLY NEED TO CHANGE - if we want to see progress in the gene pool. You can't keep doing the same thing and some how magically expect marked improvement every generation. It doesn't work like that - no matter what the seed peddlers want you to think.

I'm not upset with you at all Romanweed - but like Douglas said above - it's you that needs to change the way you are thinking about approaching this.

I'd suggest you track down a copy of "Principles of Plant Genetics and Breeding" by George Acquaah or "Principles of Plant Breeding" by Allard.

I suggest EVERYONE do so, honestly. EVERYTHING you want to know is in those books, you just need a dictionary and hours with google scholar looking at examples to understand the principles put to use in theory.

I truly do wish you best of luck with your project - regardless of how you choose to pursue it!!! :tiphat:



dank.Frank
Click to expand...

Fantastic recommendations, but holy cow are those some expensive books. Anyone got a PDF?

Edit: Found one
http://gtu.ge/Agro-Lib/Principles of Plant Genetics and Breeding.pdf
 
dank.frank

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Yeah, notice I said "track down" instead of purchase. Rebel without a cause. ;)
Thanks for linking one of them. :tiphat:



dank.Frank
 
dank.frank

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Actually, here, just read this thread. It's only 5 pages. However, you have a scenario where there is only one plant. What to do?

Genetic Freaked bought seeds from me, ONCE, in 2012 - off Seedbay. I'm still trying to help him utilize those genetics as much as I possibly can from behind a computer screen some place else in the world - when he asks - regardless what they are.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=361974

Read the approach I suggest - WHY I suggest it - the misunderstandings I try to explain, etc. This current thread, is a perfect segue.



dank.Frank
 
romanoweed

romanoweed

Well-known member
dank.frank said:
I made that post - EXACTLY for the scenario you are describing. How to best achieve a positive outcome with limited space, using efficient and intelligent pairings in isolated familial pairings that can be recombined at ANY time to restore a specific desired attribute back into the gene pool if you happened to make a goof one generation and lose something. It happens.
Click to expand...

But i heard selfed Plants generate Seeds with Strong inbreeding Depression. So i cant really use them to preserve anything, wich i think you suggest here when saying: to restore attributes back into Genepol.. Or if you speak of how to create nice Consumtion-Endproducts, then i just wanted to clarify this, and you can lock at it as wrongly transffered information
 
dank.frank

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
See. If you had taken the time to read BOTH of the links I've shared in this thread, you wouldn't be asking some of the questions you are because I address the misconception of bottle necking at some point in those posts.

You're not asking questions that require new information to be shared.



dank.Frank
 
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