How do commercial grows deal with aging mothers?

Eol · Jun 4, 2019

Hey buds,

Something I never realized (until I read the chapter in my Jorge Cervantes book) was that mother plants have a life span too - as do their cuttings. In the book he says they last about a year before starting to lose vigour, potency etc. I always thought they could be infinitely cloned!

I was wondering then, how do the commercial grows manage this? Do they have an sectioned off grow room where they're constantly producing new mothers from seed?

Thanks for any insight!

Bmac1 · Jun 4, 2019

I'm no commercial grower but I dont buy that. How would the elites that have been around for years/ decades still be blowing skirts up today? I keep smaller bonzai style mothers and they do get finicky from time to time in smaller pots but a pot up, a root prune etc always gets them back on the right track. Maybe after a year or two, I will flower out the mother and take a new cut to keep it in the stable and never really had any issues.

Wendull C. · Jun 4, 2019

I have had the same og going on multiple decades. I is just as good ss it was when I got it.

Mother health and cloning practices cause most people's problems imo.

Look at wine grapes, some of them are over a century old....

AgentPothead · Jun 4, 2019

Wow, nobody tell Jorge about how they reproduce apples.

40AmpstoFreedom · Jun 4, 2019

Sometimes you just need more words to fill up your book.

mr.brunch · Jun 4, 2019

Takes 10 seconds to create a myth, 20 years to remove it...

Mr. Greengenes · Jun 5, 2019

Very cool, I'm so glad to see that I don't have to attack this myth by myself any more! Seriously, JS has done some considerable disservices to the cannabis community. Our fearless leader has spent some time trying to get him on the Growing With Fishes podcast, but he always reschedules. I was joking that they better keep me in a cage during the interview 'cuz I'm likely to go off on him.

BTW, AgentPothead is spot on with the apples. I believe the Mcintosh apple (clone) is 208 years old now!

Brother Nature · Jun 5, 2019

I've always been of the understanding it's not actually necessary to keep a mother, being that clones are exactly that, exact copies of the source material. For example taking a clone of a clone of a clone, etc... won't actually cause any genetic drift. My level of experience with this in cannabis pales in comparison with most of the people on these forums, but from my horticultural studies it would seem that doing things that way shouldn't cause any issues. Always open to a correction though if that line of thought isn't actually correct.

Wendull C. · Jun 5, 2019

Brother, I have done the same when the moms needed a little time or if they were clipped for me then I needed to help a friend ect.

Half the time I will pick the strongest clones eith the largest callous I can see without ripping the cube open to start new moms

bsgospel · Jun 5, 2019

As far as commercial goes, they do get replenished often. That's not to say, as others here have said, that it's necessary. Commercially we want them big to be able to provide hundreds of cuts at a time. But they take up veg space after a while so we cycle in perpetuity. Probably a new mom from the same cut eternally, every 4 months in batches of 4.

If the companies I've worked for were smart they could have kept the same moms for way longer but their practices were terrible. So, we cycled... That was life.

Ibechillin · Jun 5, 2019

Discussed recently:

Ibechillin said:
My observation on plants becoming susceptible to sickness, pests, disease etc has to do with tissue age, older growth is more susceptible. By routinely taking cuttings from new active growth on healthy plants in veg before flowering the veg plants Im positive this can be avoided. This is the same reasoning why people feel clones grow more vigorously than the mother plants overall.

Stay fresh.

Mr. Greengenes said:
IDK, my JH cut is going to be 20 pretty soon and it's probably one of the most vigorous clones in my quiver. I should point out that I don't keep 'mothers' for clones, I just take one from the last and so on. I flower plants in small containers so the turnover is fairly fast. If a clone roots fast (like the JH does) it could be back in the flowering room in a month. So, that would be roughly 12 clone 'generations' per year, probably more like 10. That would be about 200 'generations' so far with absolutely ZERO signs of any slowing down, disease or virus of any kind.

Just like to point out that the Mcintosh apple is now 208 years old and going strong!

useless.gardens said:
do you take apical cuts?

Mr. Greengenes said:
Yeah, I do take the choice top section. Usually about 3-4 internodes. Not too big a cut, but not exactly a teeny one either.

All this talk about rejuvinating 'old' clones confuses me because in addition to my 'old' JH cut I have a whole stable of other healthy 'old' clones as well. Not a single one of them has changed in any way that I can tell, and many of them are keepers exactly because they are so vigorous in growth. I must be doing something right, I just don't know what it is.

Eol · Jun 5, 2019

Wow appears the book has it pretty wrong!

This has made my next grow a lot easier.

Thanks all for your input!

I'mback · Jun 5, 2019

Brother Nature said:
I've always been of the understanding it's not actually necessary to keep a mother, being that clones are exactly that, exact copies of the source material. For example taking a clone of a clone of a clone, etc... won't actually cause any genetic drift. My level of experience with this in cannabis pales in comparison with most of the people on these forums, but from my horticultural studies it would seem that doing things that way shouldn't cause any issues. Always open to a correction though if that line of thought isn't actually correct.

... from what I have seen, many flower the mothers after a successful "clone" grow/harvest.

I'mback · Jun 5, 2019

Eol said:
Hey buds,

Something I never realized (until I read the chapter in my Jorge Cervantes book) was that mother plants have a life span too - as do their cuttings. In the book he says they last about a year before starting to lose vigour, potency etc. I always thought they could be infinitely cloned!

I was wondering then, how do the commercial grows manage this? Do they have an sectioned off grow room where they're constantly producing new mothers from seed?

Thanks for any insight!

I still recommend his book (as many others have) for beginners. That being said... if that is your only source of info, it is inadequate.

OTOH if your goal is to merely grow your plants, "accompanied", it is a great source of information. Heck the nutrients section troubleshooting guide, by itself is worth the price of admission IMHO.

Besides, many things haven't changed but the knowledge 20yrs ago, simply wasn't what it is today. If you think about it.

Rico Swazi · Jun 5, 2019

Eol said:
Wow appears the book has it pretty wrong!

This has made my next grow a lot easier.

Thanks all for your input!

Curious as to which book ?
You came to the right place asking people that actually grow cannabis instead of someone that writes about it.

Thanking for the replies and input is a good thing, can't go wrong there.
I believe people will be more willing to help the next time you have a question because of you doing so.

Good luck with your next grow. :tiphat:

Wendull C. · Jun 5, 2019

Jorge's book is still the first book I give a new grower I am trying to help. Especially with this new legalization and everyone wanting to grow 6 plants in their yard.

They just want smoke, so winning the next cup or getting the most per pound isn't their concern. Neither is keeping genetics for decades.

The growers bible is still very useful to them.
Hell it was all we had when I started. I can still recite it.

Like was mentioned before, the plant pest and nutrient deficiency and excess sections are worth the price of the book.

Drewsif · Jun 5, 2019

Back when people published books, they became religious authorities. I still know peeps who cite Jorge. Led is witchcraft to them.

How do mersh mills keep clones? They buy random shit from clone houses. You guys act like commercial ops are pulling something off worth asking about. I dont see it. 500k sq ft of neem bush awaiting a peroxide bath.. How do they do it? By having a real simple minded customer base, and rotating menus?

When i was in Az mmj patients were asking for seed borne citing this clone myth as reason for the shitty bud, "it's been over cloned".

RB56 · Jun 5, 2019

I think some people are confusing genetic longevity - consistency from seed to clone to clone of clone, etc. with a single specific plants longevity - how long a mother will last before the age of the specific plant starts to show. I've only been growing for 8 years but have maintained several genetic lines going for that time, with no discernible changes. Some have gone for 20 generations. Pretty sure "genetic drift" describes changes that occur through sexual reproduction, not cloning.

The mother plants can start to look ratty with time, so I replace them every time I start a new run - take enough cuttings for the run and to start new mothers. Once the new mothers are established, I get rid of the originals.

Rico Swazi · Jun 5, 2019

Indoor Marijuana Horticulture, by George, was his first and best

I'mback · Jun 5, 2019

Rico Swazi said:
Indoor Marijuana Horticulture, by George, was his first and best

Dunno about that one but, I will openly admit this title: "The indoor/outdoor "Medical" growers bible" made we part with some cash. Catchy title at best. The book is dated. Large on pictures short on content.

How do commercial grows deal with aging mothers?

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