[Landrace] Malawi, Durban (CBG), Ethiopian and Honduras

deepwaterdude said:

Hello, Ikinokori, can you say a little more about how you did this and how long it took for them to regreen? I'm having trouble keeping things running with the bottled stuff, love to see the fan leaves green and stay on these girls a little longer

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of course, i just removed the tiny layer of top soil that is dry and unrooted (maybe 1 cm deep), dropped some insect frass and then added back the soil. then i watered. And tadaaaa


well not exactly. it took some time to kick in, maybe around a week or so. Since the soil did not have proper nutrition for them, they were yellowing since day one of transplant (which i added nothing except water) and they kept yellowing severely for days after the top dressing of insect frass at the same pace, with lots of yellowing on everyone of them and almost 2 fan leaves going everyday on the honduras... then it completely stopped all of the sudden. They even greened up.



now, It has been more than a week and nothing has yellowed really since. I have lost maybe 2 or three very small leaves in 10 days in the entire grow room. while i was losing maybe 1 fan leaf per day woth my bottled nute and easily losing 6 to 10 fan leaves per day with the single water only watering after transplant and also while i was waiting for it to kick in. crazy efficient.



This surprise me also, because as you can see in every single of my post, the Honduras has been yellowing on the bottom since day one and losing leaves even in veg. She was healthy and grew so strong and so rapidly that it didnt really matter, but the bottom leaves just kept yellowing and dying and it is the first time i saw her not yellowing at all. The ethiopian also had weird reaction with food, she kept clawing at each feeding, i did not know what was happening and now she does not claw anymore on top leaves. I feel whatever N is in those food, is more natural to them.


My dream would be to have an open setup for worm composter, where they can go and leave as they please, and same thing for insect frass. I would love knowing i am helping them and they are helping me, and that i do not "absolutely need" any commercial stuff to grow my ladies... maybe one day





Insect frass may be enough food for sativa in veg (npk 2-3-3 apparently) but because i am in flowering i added palm tree ash also to the insect frass as K food (0-1-10). maybe big hungry hybrid need more than insect frass during veg i dont really know, but apparently you can add something like alfalfa meal or neem meal for more N.




also, another mention, you can burn your plants with top dressing. Maybe not with the insect frass (i dont know, but maybe), but with the palm tree ash you definitely can. Its not "easy" to burn either, its just that you may feel the roots dont touch the food and this isnt concentrated bottled nutes, so you can just follow the directions but if your strain is sensitive, it can also be sensitive to top dressing. I put way too much because i followed the instructions, apparently you should put only a third of that ash and it will be better. I mean, they specifically mention it is very strong, alnost like a warning but i dont know, maybe i just thought of that as a marketing buzzphrase... should definitely have listened haha

The malawi seems to love the switch to more natural food, it is almost like she wanted this since the beginning

i tried the way too early ethiopian. here my preview of it.


The smell is exactly like i expected from when i cut the the male. Very "fresh", kinda like when you smell a cuncumber or mint, that freshness that invades your nose. Not a green smell at all. I couldnt really describe it another way, it is very peculiar. Since it was chopped way too early, i cant forge my opinion on this.



i wont go too much into taste at it was chopped ridiculously early and theres no curing, it was a little bit green. Not as much as i would have thought though.


Effect is very heady and very clear. I feel in full control of myself, yet the pressure in my eyes reminds me i am definitely high. I thought it would be racy or paranoid because of how early but not at all. Pretty energetic and motivating, it is a very good daysmoke for me, specifically for light activities like to go take a walk, go surfing or seeing friends. it feels more like i don't know, a very "fresh" coffee with good mood enhancement and the typical "cannabis" overall effect.My eyes were droopy and red even though i felt totally clear, so the clearness can be misleading for "passing" in public situations or workplace.

one thing, i feel very light with it, it is a little bit strange. like i feel a lot less heaviness in me. This surprised me, i have never felt that, cannabis has always made me feel heavier, and certainly not "lighter". It is kind of like someone removed i don't know, maybe 10 or 20 lbs of myself... Is it the result of a very early chop ? I am very curious about the end result of the maturing ethiopian now.

Potency is not high but still pretty ok for me. their full mature state may end up really good then.


For now, maybe the full matured plant will be different, but It has been a very long time i didnt smoke anything which didnt debilitate me so that is interesting. love it, so much actually that if this is just the result of her being chopepd early and the other one has not a clear effect, if i have two females from now on, i will try to play with harvest time by chopping one way earlier (not as early though) and the other one at typical "ripeness". i have to wait for the other one to mature to make a good judgment on the strain if its a good idea or not, maybe in the end, the mature one will end up better so i need more input

ikinokori said:

i tried the way too early ethiopian. here my preview of it.


The smell is exactly like i expected from when i cut the the male. Very "fresh", kinda like when you smell a cuncumber or mint, that freshness that invades your nose. Not a green smell at all. I couldnt really describe it another way, it is very peculiar. Since it was chopped way too early, i cant forge my opinion on this.



i wont go too much into taste at it was chopped ridiculously early and theres no curing, it was a little bit green. Not as much as i would have thought though.


Effect is very heady and very clear. I feel in full control of myself, yet the pressure in my eyes reminds me i am definitely high. I thought it would be racy or paranoid because of how early but not at all. Pretty energetic and motivating, it is a very good daysmoke for me, specifically for light activities like to go take a walk, go surfing or seeing friends. it feels more like i don't know, a very "fresh" coffee with good mood enhancement and the typical "cannabis" overall effect.My eyes were droopy and red even though i felt totally clear, so the clearness can be misleading for "passing" in public situations or workplace.

one thing, i feel very light with it, it is a little bit strange. like i feel a lot less heaviness in me. This surprised me, i have never felt that, cannabis has always made me feel heavier, and certainly not "lighter". It is kind of like someone removed i don't know, maybe 10 or 20 lbs of myself... Is it the result of a very early chop ? I am very curious about the end result of the maturing ethiopian now.

Potency is not high but still pretty ok for me. their full mature state may end up really good then.


For now, maybe the full matured plant will be different, but It has been a very long time i didnt smoke anything which didnt debilitate me so that is interesting. love it, so much actually that if this is just the result of her being chopepd early and the other one has not a clear effect, if i have two females from now on, i will try to play with harvest time by chopping one way earlier (not as early though) and the other one at typical "ripeness". i have to wait for the other one to mature to make a good judgment on the strain if its a good idea or not, maybe in the end, the mature one will end up better so i need more input


View Image

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Malawi is looking nice my friend. I too have had weed recently, one of my Honduran hybrids that made me feel super light, not just my whole body but my arm when I moved them. It's pretty cool. Glad you found something functional in public, some Clear Eyes drops in the eyes for redness and only you know.
Great smoke report, thanks for posting!
Peace, God bless

SolarLogos said:

Malawi is looking nice my friend. I too have had weed recently, one of my Honduran hybrids that made me feel super light, not just my whole body but my arm when I moved them. It's pretty cool. Glad you found something functional in public, some Clear Eyes drops in the eyes for redness and only you know.
Great smoke report, thanks for posting!
Peace, God bless

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Thank you ! Yes it is interesting, very different. I hope this is how the strain is, and not just the result of it being immature. what is the hybrid you made ?

Your Malawi looks killer ikinokori!

Glad you are enjoying with the effects of the early harvest of the pure ethiopian, potency and quality can only improve with more maturation

dubi said:

Your Malawi looks killer ikinokori!

Glad you are enjoying with the effects of the early harvest of the pure ethiopian, potency and quality can only improve with more maturation

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Thank you






By the way, i was wondering what you think about flushing ? There is so much contradictory opinions on this, i don't know if i should do it or not. Some say flushing just makes the plant "cure itself" so you get the same result by not flushing and curing longer, other say not flushing you will never get rid of some chlorophyll no matter how long the curing so i am a little bit torn.


Mu durban and malawi are starting to yellow again, and since they are being a few weeks from harvest, i am wondering if i should give them more food or just let them yellow completely

Great description of the Ethiopian high. I really like the Ethiopian effect. It's truly a great functional pot, yet really enjoyable. Surprised you are getting such a good effect with an early harvest.

Lovely pics and great thread too.

I chose not to flush.
Could find no benefit with NFT.
I use controlled nutrient reduction, back to seedling levels.
Personally ignore the “Natural to yellow” mantra.
But, once yellow the boat has sailed.

With Coco, I make beds 1-2mtr Square.
Make divisions with plastic sheet buried in Coco between plants.
The Coco works continuous, so I keep it primed.

Not to say, someone should flush or not.
In fruiting crops, low salt solution swell cells causing fruit to expand and split.

Cheers

hard rain said:

Great description of the Ethiopian high. I really like the Ethiopian effect. It's truly a great functional pot, yet really enjoyable. Surprised you are getting such a good effect with an early harvest.

Lovely pics and great thread too.

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thank you ! i was definitely surprised too. The few times i had to harvest early, it was just bad. I really can't wait for the mature plant to finish, it is such a unique and functional high, if it keeps being functional, but just better, it can really turn into one of my main smoke.

Home-Grown said:

I chose not to flush.
Could find no benefit with NFT.
I use controlled nutrient reduction, back to seedling levels.
Personally ignore the “Natural to yellow” mantra.
But, once yellow the boat has sailed.

With Coco, I make beds 1-2mtr Square.
Make divisions with plastic sheet buried in Coco between plants.
The Coco works continuous, so I keep it primed.

Not to say, someone should flush or not.
In fruiting crops, low salt solution swell cells causing fruit to expand and split.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Thank you. One of my best smoke was unflushed, so i am wondering if there are any real benefits and i generally don't flush so I have never done side to side. But i have seen somewhere (a study i think) stating that the best fruits, at least terpene and taste wise, were grown with the lowest amount of Nitrogen not only in end of flowering, but during the entire grow. If this is true, then maybe there is really some truth to the flushing thing.



Maybe the ideal situation is not to flush, but rather to cut N, and potentially P alltogether... I saw somewhere else K was the main responsible for late terpene, taste and aroma developpement so it is very important in that phase, and since my palm tree ash has not a single N and virtually no P, it would be interesting to try to "flush" with it

ikinokori said:

Maybe the ideal situation is not to flush, but rather to cut N, and potentially P alltogether... I saw somewhere else K was the main responsible for late terpene, taste and aroma developpement so it is very important in that phase, and since my palm tree ash has not a single N and virtually no P, it would be interesting to try to "flush" with it

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I am working on a Coco Nutrient Chart, and keen to hear more about this.


Red Characters are the Nutrient Profile.
The last Column is the GH COCOTEC Profile for reference.


The nutrient has increases in P/K in proportion to the background elements.
RIPEN has a further reduction of N in the overall ratio.
Which I repeated at approximately 2/3rd, then 1/3rd strength in final water.

This is all new ground, so I have not settled on any particular nutrient practice.


Is palm tree ash any different to standard chemical potash for Coco application?
What product do you use, what’s the K percentage?


Here is a paper, among other things it looks at flushing.
Irrigation Management Strategies for Medical Cannabis in Controlled Environments - By Jonathan Stemeroff
https://atrium.lib.uoguelph.ca/xmlu...2_Msc_with_erratum.pdf?sequence=8&isAllowed=y

Home-Grown said:

Is palm tree ash any different to standard chemical potash for Coco application?
What product do you use, what’s the K percentage?


Here is a paper, among other things it looks at flushing.
Irrigation Management Strategies for Medical Cannabis in Controlled Environments - By Jonathan Stemeroff
https://atrium.lib.uoguelph.ca/xmlu...2_Msc_with_erratum.pdf?sequence=8&isAllowed=y

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this is very interesting. Your paper further indicates that late flushing may not affect really the nitrogen (or anything at all actually), and that the other paper that i saw may be right that it should be low since the beginning. I have also read another paper on Insect frass and its nitrogen delivery, which makes the plant leaf matter and fruit much less concentrated in nitrogen than normal fertilizer, and on the opposite, roots had a lot more N than any other groop. Interestingly, stems had much lower nitrogen in the classic fertilizer group, while with insect frass, it was identical to leaf matter. I have seen the effect of my insect frass and it really stopped the yellowing like if i had applied N, but healthy leaves did not get darker like it can happen when i used fertilizer. I have seen comments where you can buy it of people reporting the same thing about stopping senescence and the manufacturer says it actually impossible to burn your plants with it. I think it has maybe a nitrogen that is regulated by the plants and the microbe, and that maybe there is no "N excess", since it only takes what it wants. This may be also why it takes almost a week to work and yellowing keeps happening meanwhile with no slowdown, while fish emulsion is a lot more immediate.This is a theory of mine so it may be untrue.




for the palm ash, it is litterally ashes of palm tree, so everything that is left after combustion (calcium, potassium, some minerals and so on). it is 0-1-30, very high in potassium. I just topdress with it, i think mixing with something like wormcast or insect frass is good, it can burn plants very easily also, it has burned all my plants and nearly killed one ethiopian at recommended dosage (the early chopped one). I was wondering if i did something wrong, and i saw a comment on british forum saying that it completely burned his plant and 3 days after the application of the product at recommended dosage, his plant died. I was wondering if there was something wrong with it, but after lowering the dosage a lot, the plants seems to love it. So it sounds like it is actually very powerful, like the packaging says, too much actually.

ikinokori said:

have seen somewhere (a study i think) stating that the best fruits, at least terpene and taste wise, were grown with the lowest amount of Nitrogen not only in end of flowering, but during the entire grow. If this is true, then maybe there is really some truth to the flushing thing.

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I think there are two separate subjects, low nitrogen and flushing.
Flushing is a solution looking for problems.


I use 118 ppm Nitrogen for Growth and < 100 ppm for Flowering, and finish with reductions as described.

Low Nitrogen can give higher terpene and THC in ratio to production.
The strongest plant I ever smoked, I planted in infertile clay as flood water receded.
The Flood water provided nutrient that was depleted as soil dried, and plant matured.
I would not try to recreate this situation, the goal being to grow a full crop.
It is really more of a choice.

ikinokori said:

I have seen the effect of my insect frass and it really stopped the senescence like if i had applied N, but nothing really greened up on the healthy leaves, they did not get darker like it can happen when i used fertilizer. I have seen comments where you can buy it of people reporting the same thing about stopping senescence and one mention that It is very hard, or actually impossible to burn your plants with it. I think it has maybe a nitrogen that is regulated by the plants and the microbe, and that maybe there is no "N excess", since it only takes what it wants. This is a theory of mine so it may be untrue.

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Insect Frass could be used instead of Chemical N in RIPEN mix.
What would you include to make it more balanced?

Home-Grown said:

I think there are two separate subjects, low nitrogen and flushing.
Flushing is a solution looking for problems.


I use 118 ppm Nitrogen for Growth and < 100 ppm for Flowering, and finish with reductions as described.

Low Nitrogen can give higher terpene and THC in ratio to production.
The strongest plant I ever smoked, I planted in infertile clay as flood water receded.
The Flood water provided nutrient that was depleted as soil dried, and plant matured.
I would not try to recreate this situation, the goal being to grow a full crop.
It is really more of a choice.





Insect Frass could be used instead of Chemical N in RIPEN mix.
What would you include to make it more balanced?

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very interesting mention about the low fertile soil, your experience is very concordent with everything i read about low fertilizing and fruit quality


for insect frass complement food, i think maybe some potassium source like palm ash, i have also found a hydrolised kelp extract with like 1-1-21 so it also may be a good candidate (after looking how it is done, it is a "alkaline hydrolization" which is a very specific way to "burn" the matter, so it is kinda ashes too). the NPK of insect frass depends on what was feeded to the insect but it is similar generally and seems really balanced for veg, mine is 3-3-2. I have added the palm ash to it, my canna flores for example is 2-2-5, so i thought that the only thing that would be lacking compared to it may be K, and after applying the mixture, apart from the initial burn, nothing has yellowed, nothing has blotched, turned brittle or anything for almost 2 weeks and the flower have increased considerably so it looks like it complements it very well.

There was one mention somewhere from a user i think saying that insect frass have a much higher bioavaibility of everything since it is actually digested plant matter full of bacteria, so NPK values is irrelevant to it, which would result into a "if anything is lacking, just add more" if it really doesnt burn plants. I don't know if there is any truth to that, i think i will try next grow if i have 2 females of same strain to grow one with insect frass only during the whole grow and the other one with insect frass and palm ash. maybe ill try another one with hydrolised kelp instead of palm ash also.




one last element that could be good if phosphorous levels are too low is instead of palm ash is actually cannabis ashes. I have found NPK values of it, and it is 0-3-7, so more phosphorous too and not that much potassium. I don't know if there is more needs of potassium than the insect frass can deliver, but it can be interesting. This also depends on what part of the plant was burned, maybe leaves, flower and stems have each very different npk values and i think it was jst said as (leaves and stem)... cannabis seeds ashes are actually much more concentrated and extremely high in phosphorous (0-35-20), which could also be very interesting if phosphorous is needed, but really looking at commercial fertilizer, i am not sure the insect frass really needs more phosphorous. But it is interesting and i would like in the future to store the ashes of the cannabis i smoke. It just sounds great to me that anything you smoke will be used and recycled to make new plants that will also be smoked... nature cycle

How about insect frass, palm ash, and 0.5ml CalMag (30ppm Ca, 6ppm N).
Might try insect frass one day, not sold on the value of palm ash.
With KoolBloom liquid, I know exactly how much is going in the mix.

Keen to try replacing N with Insect Frass, just for the RIPEN mix.
Edited this heaps - thinking it through

Home-Grown said:

How about insect frass, palm ash, and 0.5ml CalMag (30ppm Ca, 6ppm N).
Might try these products one day.


I would only try these things during RIPEN and final waters,
otherwise the cost and frigging about would not be worth it.

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that is actually what i wanted to try next grow, to add calmag to it, or amend my soil sufficiently with it. it will be very interesting to see the outcome

Just finished my Home Grown Coco Nutrient profiles. Uses GH Flora series without the Bloom.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=365017

Still testing.

Home-Grown said:

Just finished my Home Grown Coco Nutrient profiles. Uses GH Flora series without the Bloom.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=365017

Still testing.

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interesting, thank you

I wonder if the reduction in leaf loss noted from using of insect frass is because of the SAR reaction caused from the chitosan that is in frass. and perhaps less to do with actual N. although aminos in the frass may also help facilitate uptake vs chemical chelators in ferts.

I have come to appreciate the aminos, as not only work by themselves, but likely part of why "living soil" works aswell as production of protein/aminos from fungus natural refresh of the amino chelation of nutrients particularly calcium near roots.

Also perhaps why sugars work for flavor in hydro, feed micro biome that make proteins that chelate vs strictly chemical chelates lending the gross hydro flavors. perhaps part of the story anyway as we tend to over simplify things i think in our minds as far as whats "truly" going on.

aminos are used in greenhouses in hollands hydro tomato industry, which gave significant increase in BRIX and worth extra costs/labor. think it was in the 20 30% increase in sugar

since on a rant about nitrates, i think its a confusion on that plants "need" less N in flower, but reason see increase resins size etc when higher PK ratios is more to do with energy used to "take up extra" N isnt needed and that energy hungry nitrate assimilation can be used instead for flower power if you will ie bulk and terps etc. again more complex then "pk flower boost" which may lock out N aswell as having pk in higher ratios?

feel free to debunk

clearheaded said:

I wonder if the reduction in leaf loss noted from using of insect frass is because of the SAR reaction caused from the chitosan that is in frass. and perhaps less to do with actual N. although aminos in the frass may also help facilitate uptake vs chemical chelators in ferts.

I have come to appreciate the aminos, as not only work by themselves, but likely part of why "living soil" works aswell as production of protein/aminos from fungus natural refresh of the amino chelation of nutrients particularly calcium near roots.

Also perhaps why sugars work for flavor in hydro, feed micro biome that make proteins that chelate vs strictly chemical chelates lending the gross hydro flavors. perhaps part of the story anyway as we tend to over simplify things i think in our minds as far as whats "truly" going on.

aminos are used in greenhouses in hollands hydro tomato industry, which gave significant increase in BRIX and worth extra costs/labor. think it was in the 20 30% increase in sugar

since on a rant about nitrates, i think its a confusion on that plants "need" less N in flower, but reason see increase resins size etc when higher PK ratios is more to do with energy used to "take up extra" N isnt needed and that energy hungry nitrate assimilation can be used instead for flower power if you will ie bulk and terps etc. again more complex then "pk flower boost" which may lock out N aswell as having pk in higher ratios?

feel free to debunk

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I have to find the paper back, but it seems there is really a special thing going on with N and insect frass. Like, as a not so positive effect (or maybe yes depending on the situation) they also noted insect frass made a type of N to leach, which may result in actually less N at the beginning. I may have misunderstood that part, but i think there was several N (ammonium, nitrate and so on, n3, n4... like one was very powerful, one was not usable and needed bacteria to work/get fixed ) and applying Insect frass made the substrate retain less of the more powerful and immediate N. I have also noticed it, at first its like if there is any yellowing going on, nor only desnt it help it, but it almost gets worse.



Someone posted that it is the bacteria feeding on the nitrogen and if your soil lack nitrogen, on first application you should actually apply a N fertilizer to avoid yellowing. But this was a random post i read and i think the study specified it made it "leach", whatever that means... Maybe that it gets i don't know, evaporated or flushed with the runoff water ? This is so new to me i am a little bit lost, a lot of new information, i agree that we may be oversimplifying things, what i have found over the time is that when we see something happening, we may think we know what is happening at first, and years later we find that we were just looking at the tip of the iceberg or worse, at something looking similar but that had nothing to do with it. maybe that is what we are dealing with here. Maybe theres nothing to do with N... or maybe it does.