Reversing Males

LostTribe · Mar 13, 2019

#1 is reversing a male possible with similar procedure of reversing a female?

#2 Will reversing a male provide progeny that are 100% male?

#3 This is a very serious question for very specific purposes.

LostTribe · Mar 13, 2019

Might be of use.

aridbud · Mar 13, 2019

Backcrossing your male should do the job (the idea is to obtain an individual that is 95+% similar to your male plant, but has the genes required for female).

Justin Ma, PhD in Plant Breeding and Genetics

Ibechillin · Mar 13, 2019

LostTribe said:
#1 is reversing a male possible with similar procedure of reversing a female?

Yes by spraying male plants with ethephon, if a female plant starts producing pollen sacks spraying ethephon on them should be able to stop it also.

Sam_Skunkman said:
ethephon used on the plant material is converted very quickly to ethylene. I smoked transformed male to female, I do not think it is dangerous at all. I used pure ethephon.
-SamS

Sam_Skunkman said:
DP was the first to sell all fem seeds made with STS, Hybe was one of the first selling STS for $100 a liter, but we were the first to use STS, we used it shortly after reading about it in Ram's paper, I and Rob Clarke read Rams paper in 1983 and made and used it a few years later.
At the time I was hoping to combine all female seeds with all sterile plants that could not set any seeds.
We were also amongst the first to turn males to females with ethephon (2-chloroethanephosphonic acid). So the male that was female transformed could be tested for Cannabinoid and terpene contents, it worked great.
With all female sterile seeds, then anyone could grow sinsemilla, no need to sex plants, and even if your neighbor had a zillion flowering males you would get no seeds in your sterile all female crop. Perfect for Morocco hash farmers that never see sinsemilla grown in the Rif, just to many male plants.
Anyway, all female is easy, making your all female seeds also sterile I never succeeded with although I tried for 3 years using a method that watermelon seed producers use to make seedless watermelon's. It almost worked but still made white nubbies and a few to a lot of black seeds no matter how I tried or what genetics I used.
-SamS

LostTribe said:
#2 Will reversing a male provide progeny that are 100% male?

Sam has mentioned reversed males having a hard time producing seeds and the seeds that are produced being mostly sterile (unable to reproduce). Better to only reverse a male clone to get an idea of the flower traits it can pass on and use it's pollen on a female plant.

Sam_Skunkman said:
I have read that the males transformed to female have a high incidence of sterility and have trouble making seeds, but that is unimportant if you just want to judge your male to determine it's suitability for breedin with your elite female clones.
-SamS

Sam_Skunkman said:
I have heard that this method make females that are often sterile, but even if not sterile, to make all male seeds is not so simple as this. With females that are turned male there is no Y only XX so you get all female seeds, when a male XX is crossed with a normal XX female. With a male turned female both X&Y are there so I doubt a female transformed to male will make all male seeds. Maybe you need to find or make a super male YY and cross it times a normal XX female, you should get all XY, male? I think so.

-SamS

Sam_Skunkman said:
XY = male
XX = female

Females turned to male have only XX so when bred to a normal female XX the result is always XX, female.

Males turned to female are XY so when bred to a normal male XY the results are half the seeds are XY male, and 25% are XX female, And 25% YY male if they can survive, because YY often do not.

-SamS

Try this , use XY x XY as the parents.
https://www.changbioscience.com/genetics/punnett.html

Punnett Square

XY x XY

...X Y
X XX XY
Y XY YY

Genotype Frequencies:
XX: 1 ( 25% ) female
XY: 2 ( 50% ) male
YY: 1 ( 25% ) male if it lives

aridbud said:
Justin Ma, PhD in Plant Breeding and Genetics

Thats awesome man.

Nico Farmer · Mar 13, 2019

I read the whole thread last year, :

Reversed male + male = 100% male seeds, right?!

I want to hunt a good male, but in this case I think plants will be very uniform... or nice differences can be found?

@Ibechillin, we have posted at the same time

ok for flowers traits better than seeds! I just remember now seeds is not an easy to make.

Ibechillin · Mar 13, 2019

Reversed male (if it will produce seeds) x regular male should makes 50% regular XY male or female seeds, 25% XX feminized seeds and 25% YY "super male" seeds which often dont sprout/survive.

Douglas.Curtis · Mar 13, 2019

"Femmed" seeds are 99.9% female, because you're forming male flowers on a female plant. The female plant does not carry the male gene. Like Ibechillin points out, males carry both so you're going to get everything possible for cannabis to throw.

As far as I'm aware, there is no known technique available (yet) which will reliably produce 99.9% male seeds.

Sorry.

LostTribe · Mar 16, 2019

Nico Farmer said:
I read the whole thread last year, :

Reversed male + male = 100% male seeds, right?!

I want to hunt a good male, but in this case I think plants will be very uniform... or nice differences can be found?

@Ibechillin, we have posted at the same time
ok for flowers traits better than seeds! I just remember now seeds is not an easy to make.

which thread?

Ibechillin · Mar 16, 2019

Male clones transformed to Female to judge male smoking qualities:
(started by Sam_Skunkman)

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=99597

Nico Farmer · Mar 16, 2019

Douglas.Curtis said:
"Femmed" seeds are 99.9% female, because you're forming male flowers on a female plant.

I think the question was not about femmed seeds; but about "feminized males".
:tiphat:

White Beard · Mar 16, 2019

Pretty sure a reversed male will produce male and female seeds, as the male *still* has both X and Y chromosomes...where a reversed female, having only the X chromosome can only produce female seeds

Douglas.Curtis · Mar 16, 2019

Nico Farmer said:
I think the question was not about femmed seeds; but about "feminized males".

The question is about producing malinized(made up word. lol) seeds for 99% male plants. This is not possible by simply reversing a male and pollinating it with male pollen. Hence the explanation of how feminized seeds work the way they do.
:tiphat:

Nico Farmer · Mar 16, 2019

Douglas.Curtis said:
The question is about producing malinized(made up word. lol) seeds for 99% male plants. This is not possible by simply reversing a male and pollinating it with male pollen. Hence the explanation of how feminized seeds work the way they do.

ok Douglas, language barrier + a good high = I did not see the link :biggrin:

Douglas.Curtis · Mar 16, 2019

Been there, lol. This particular Femtorix plant has me floating a bit lately. lol Gotta stay away from it. hehehehehe

Spinme · Apr 6, 2019

I wonder how femanizing works. I know it inhibits a chemical causing male to show but how does male expression manifest if no male chromosone was there to begin with . Pretty odd

White Beard · Apr 6, 2019

Not an organic chemist, but here’s the basics as I understand it:

ALL females are X/X - two chromosomes, both Xs

ALL males are X/Y - two chromosomes, one X and one Y

Inducing pollen production in females only has X chromosomes to work with: all the pollen will be X, all seeds resulting will be X/X

Inducing flower production in males has both X and Y chromosomes to work with, but I’m pretty sure that flower itself cannot create an X calyx; if induced flowers *can* provide a Y chromosome, I dunno, but suspect it would be sterile or un-germ-able. So-called “super” males in humans are X/Y/Y...can’t even imagine what an YY plant would be like, since all sexual reproduction has X as the base.

LostTribe · Jun 2, 2019

White Beard said:
Not an organic chemist, but here’s the basics as I understand it:

ALL females are X/X - two chromosomes, both Xs

ALL males are X/Y - two chromosomes, one X and one Y

Inducing pollen production in females only has X chromosomes to work with: all the pollen will be X, all seeds resulting will be X/X

Inducing flower production in males has both X and Y chromosomes to work with, but I’m pretty sure that flower itself cannot create an X calyx; if induced flowers *can* provide a Y chromosome, I dunno, but suspect it would be sterile or un-germ-able. So-called “super” males in humans are X/Y/Y...can’t even imagine what an YY plant would be like, since all sexual reproduction has X as the base.

I think it would be worth doing even as Sam used to to see what the male will actually throw.

I was thinking to actually try to Malinize the seeds to keep a particular male in seed form.

Did Sam say anything about the progeny of the reversed males?

White Beard · Jun 2, 2019

All I’ve heard on the point was just today.
It was that offspring tend to ‘favor’ the plant that made the seed.

I can’t say from personal experience

Cvh · Jun 2, 2019

About the progeny of seeds made using reversed males.

When you cross a male (XY) to a reversed male (XY) you'll see in the offspring one female, 2 males and one 'super' male (YY). So the progency will not be 100% male.

Here is a Punnett Square I made using this website:
https://scienceprimer.com/punnett-square-calculator

(One day I want to attempt to reverse a male plant and see if I can make seeds and if they're viable).

Cheers.

:tiphat:

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