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Old 08-15-2020, 10:15 PM #71
tobedetermined
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Originally Posted by Montuno View Post
Marijuana and hashish smoking pipe, found in Cordoba, Spain, from the time of the Umayyad Caliphate of Cordoba [snip]
Dating: 901=1100 After Christ.
Good find, Montuno. That means hashish was being smoked much earlier than thought. And it adds another overlap. The Vikings raided Spain in 844, pillaging Sevilla & threatening Cordoba until the caliphate gathered an army to drive them off. They raided Iberia again several more times – although mainly the Christian north.

Btw . . . my Y-DNA & ancestral geography say that I am probably a Viking remnant & I smoke a lot of weed . . . does that help the research at all?
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:16 AM #72
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Originally Posted by tobedetermined View Post
Good find, Montuno. That means hashish was being smoked much earlier than thought. And it adds another overlap. The Vikings raided Spain in 844, pillaging Sevilla & threatening Cordoba until the caliphate gathered an army to drive them off. They raided Iberia again several more times – although mainly the Christian north
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings_in_Iberia

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viki...a_ib%C3%A9rica


Right.
The first Viking incursion you cite was actually during the time of the Emirate and its fourth emir Abd-al-Rhaman (aka Abderraman) II.
Later there would also be incursions during the time of the Caliphate, and of its second caliph, al-Hakam (aka Alhaken) II .

But there were also peaceful diplomatic and commercial contacts. From one of the Wikipedia articles:

"Aside from Viking raids in the Islamic Mediterranean, it has been imaged that there were also sustained diplomatic relations between the Vikings and the Islamic world.[11][12][13] However, the key evidence, a thirteenth-century account by Ibn Di?ya, in which an Arab diplomat Al-Ghaz?l ("the gazelle") is dispatched to a pagan court during the reign of Abd-ar-Ra?man II (Umayyad Emirate of Cordoba), has been shown neither clearly to refer to Vikings nor probably even to have happened.[14] It is accepted, however, that in the tenth century the Jewish Spanish-Arabic merchant Ibrahim ibn Yakub Al-Tartushi travelled to the Scandinavian trading town of Hedeby in Schleswig.[15] "

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Old 08-16-2020, 11:44 AM #73
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Btw . . . my Y-DNA & ancestral geography say that I am probably a Viking remnant & I smoke a lot of weed . . . does that help the research at all?
Heh heh... Everything could be...

What is historically proven is that in my area cannabis was grown on a large scale during the time of the Umayyad Emirate of Cordoba, and that at least since the subsequent Caliphate, this cannabis was smoked (in beautiful pipes that I can show you if you are interested; in the shape of a boat, a lion, etc...); and it is also true that "your ancestors" Vikings "visited" mine both in the Emiral and Caliphal times...
...Who knows... Perhaps one of my ancestors was the first to teach yours to smoke good grass from the Guadalquivir Valley, he...


Pd:
Photos of anothers beautiful pipes, somewhat later than the previous one I showed you; these others belongs to the time and area of the Hispano-Muslim Nazarite Sultanate of Granada (1238 - 1492); (Exhibited to the public in the "cannabis pipes" section of Room 7 of the Alhambra Museum (Granada, Spain)):









Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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Old 08-16-2020, 01:31 PM #74
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Vibes Montuno gracias for those pieces of history, mix between the Celtic and North African culture i guess.

For those little sibsi pipes i think that they was much more used to smoke the kiff than hasch, like the Berbers nowadays i mean..? They probably used something bigger like the Hindu chilum or water pipe for the hasch ? Bigger artefacts like that in the museum you know?

Btw before the zero age my ancestors Armorican, Veneti, used to trade with Iberia, as far as Grece, Anatolia and North Africa. Thalassokrate proto Celtic vibes.
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Old 08-16-2020, 02:28 PM #75
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Vibes Montuno gracias for those pieces of history, mix between the Celtic and North African culture i guess.

For those little sibsi pipes i think that they was much more used to smoke the kiff than hasch, like the Berbers nowadays i mean..? They probably used something bigger like the Hindu chilum or water pipe for the hasch ? Bigger artefacts like that in the museum you know?

Btw before the zero age my ancestors Armorican, Veneti, used to trade with Iberia, as far as Grece, Anatolia and North Africa. Thalassokrate proto Celtic vibes.
Celtic culture had the greatest impact in Northern Iberia. I see in these pipes more a mixture of native elements (Tartessian, Iberian) with Greco-Roman and Eastern elements (Syria, Iraq)... But I am not an expert in art, of course.

As for your question: I don't know if there are also bigger pipes. I leave you a link to an article of the "Patronato del Museo de La Alhambra", in case it is useful for you..:

https://www.alhambra-patronato.es/pipas-nazari

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Old 08-16-2020, 02:55 PM #76
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I've been looking at the early Spanish accounts of discovering pipes and tobacco. It's clear the Spanish had no idea what a pipe was. They called them 'muskets'. If pipes were invented in Spain for hashish smoking the Spanish would be familiar with them. Here's a link to 'the first image of a man smoking a pipe'. All pre-smoking Arab accounts of ingesting hashish use the verb 'to eat'. The verb for smoking is 'to drink' which was not used until after pipes were introduced from the New World.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...te_tobacco.JPG

I'd imagine if the Spanish had invented pipes, there'd be older images then this one? I reached out to the museum you mention, they still haven't gotten back to me. I doubt they will since I doubt they've tested these pipes. It's clear they made a mistake, the pipes look like ones made after contact with the New World. The other pre-Columbian Old World pipes are very different, actually water pipes.

The Vikings may have encountered pipes in the New World because the Inuit used them. As far as I know they didn't leave any records about it or bring any pipes back to the Old World. Once again I think if pipes had been invented and used by Europeans instead of Native Americans there'd be a clear history of pipe use in the Old World. They'd be found across Europe and Asia. Or certainly across the Arab world in hashish-using regions. Yet all the Arab accounts either refer to eating hashish or burning it as incense. I notice their pipe collection is dated 13-15th century and 15th-16th century. I believe their dating is wrong and all the pipes are from the 16th century onward. I'd be surprised if all the Old World pipes were found by this one guy, in one place, in Spain. I think Native Americans deserve credit here, not the Spanish. I'll send the museum another note and see what happens. My guess is they'll quietly take their page down.
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Old 08-16-2020, 06:36 PM #77
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Here's a link to a piece about the history of clay smoking pipes in England. Notice the similarity between the early European pieces and the Spanish pieces.

https://www.dawnmist.org/gallery.htm

It's likely the Spanish pipes were made in the century after the Europeans discovered tobacco and brought it back to Europe. Here's a picture of 17th century clay pipes from Venice.



They're very similar to the Spanish collection and seem to be made in a similar fashion. I'm not trolling, I'd love to see evidence of hash pipes or hookahs before Columbus. Here's a link to the wikipedia page about the history of smoking. A lot of good information there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smoking

Quote:
What is historically proven is that in my area cannabis was grown on a large scale during the time of the Umayyad Emirate of Cordoba,
Can you give me a link to your source? Very curious about European drug cannabis production before the hippies.

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mixture of native elements (Tartessian, Iberian) with Greco-Roman and Eastern elements (Syria, Iraq)
Looks Renaissance style to my untrained eye..
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Old 08-16-2020, 07:54 PM #78
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Originally Posted by therevverend View Post
I've been looking at the early Spanish accounts of discovering pipes and tobacco. It's clear the Spanish had no idea what a pipe was. They called them 'muskets'. If pipes were invented in Spain for hashish smoking the Spanish would be familiar with them. Here's a link to 'the first image of a man smoking a pipe'. All pre-smoking Arab accounts of ingesting hashish use the verb 'to eat'. The verb for smoking is 'to drink' which was not used until after pipes were introduced from the New World.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...te_tobacco.JPG

I'd imagine if the Spanish had invented pipes, there'd be older images then this one? I reached out to the museum you mention, they still haven't gotten back to me. I doubt they will since I doubt they've tested these pipes. It's clear they made a mistake, the pipes look like ones made after contact with the New World. The other pre-Columbian Old World pipes are very different, actually water pipes.

The Vikings may have encountered pipes in the New World because the Inuit used them. As far as I know they didn't leave any records about it or bring any pipes back to the Old World. Once again I think if pipes had been invented and used by Europeans instead of Native Americans there'd be a clear history of pipe use in the Old World. They'd be found across Europe and Asia. Or certainly across the Arab world in hashish-using regions. Yet all the Arab accounts either refer to eating hashish or burning it as incense. I notice their pipe collection is dated 13-15th century and 15th-16th century. I believe their dating is wrong and all the pipes are from the 16th century onward. I'd be surprised if all the Old World pipes were found by this one guy, in one place, in Spain. I think Native Americans deserve credit here, not the Spanish. I'll send the museum another note and see what happens. My guess is they'll quietly take their page down.
Not sure about pipes but from my reading even before the Arab accounts of smoking hashish, the romans used to smoke "hemp". They would burn it and inhale the smoke using straws. Straws were actually quite common all around the world even before Christ.
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Old 08-16-2020, 08:19 PM #79
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Therevverend:

You are probably right, and some of the best archaeologists and Islamists in the West confuse a multitude of Hispano-Islamic looking pieces taken from Hispano-Islamic archeological sites with Renaissance Christian art.

As for low bibliography documenting the cultivation and recreational use of cannabis in al-Andalus, I already put you examples of several authors, both medieval and contemporary, in another thread where you discussed the same, but you ignored it.

Cheers.

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Old 08-16-2020, 08:21 PM #80
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Not sure about pipes but from my reading even before the Arab accounts of smoking hashish, the romans used to smoke "hemp". They would burn it and inhale the smoke using straws. Straws were actually quite common all around the world even before Christ.
Example of a Roman pipe (I - II century A.C.):


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