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Scrutinizing Strains with Science : An Objective Discussion

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
OO should be able to tell us a lot about the effects of different terpenes; Germany is a decade ahead in this field and has the best doping doctors.
As said, most monoterpenes at commonly achieved concentrations have either no (= no scientifically proven) or many weak unspecific effects. This makes them difficult to study and understand, let alone predict something. It's much like TCM... a mixture impossible (at least with current knowledge) to delineate. There are, for some ingredients, rational reasons to be found but usually, it's just a weird mixture developed by trial and error during more than thousand years.
Some of these concoctions are certainly similar to folk medicine in the Middle Ages, others have changed because two different plants had the same name, some ingredients are simply there because someone liked them, because they hadn't anything better, of just because... and then, there are the toxic ones, those having already a dozen effects on their own, and others which serve to equilibrate yin and yang or whatever spiritual meridian.
So, no, I'm no advocate for monoterpenes beyond their nice smells and aromas ;) . And no, I still don't 'believe' (my education and experience tells me so) that they could, unless taken additionally at elevated amounts and not as part of the drug itself, markedly alter a trip in a pharmacological way. I attribute found differences mostly to two factors, A: people sensible enough for faintest alterations and with a marked sense of self and B: an aroma therapy like effect, an association of smells with certain memories, or a 'short circuit' between olfactory perception and the very subjective psychoactive experience of THC.

Besides, I don't get your association of me with Germany and doping doctors???

BTW, there's a reason for licorice having said effects and they have absolutely nothing to do with cannabis.
 

Donn

Member
Isn't it fairly well established that some monoterpenes could reasonably promote absorption in the lungs -
 

Donn

Member
[oops, sorry!] like alpha-pinene via bronchodilation, or limonene via some other method? And a couple with sedative effects. I mean, this doesn't necessarily show that they have major effects in cannabis, but if you rule out monoterpenes, what's left? Humulene is a sesquiterpene, I guess? Effects from tiny fractions of "other" cannabinoids?
 
As said, most monoterpenes at commonly achieved concentrations have either some (= scientifically proven) or many strong specific effects.

FYP.

It's amazing you don't know that, since the universities of Dresden, Paderborn, Saarbrücken and München did so much pioneering research on that. Especially before the wall fell, it's very old.

From my education and experience I can guarantee you terpenes can have huge effects!

There are “powerful synergists” in cannabis extracts causing 330% greater activity in mice than THC alone, likely the most important one being terpenes.
What I found myself is strains we experience as couchlock have terpenes that reduce mouse motility and strains we experience as energizing have terpenes that increase mouse motility.
 

MrBelvedere

Active member
ICMag Donor
There are definitely differences between eating a substance and smoking it. Period. Can somebody who speaks German link to those studies? I do not agree that ingesting a substance will a have "more effect" than smoking it, that statement is too general IMO.
 
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Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
x
THC plus terpenes has been tested (typically 300% more effect) and single terpenes have been tested, but I am not sure about single terpenes with THC.
Obviously they should test that too.

They have been by me, and a dozen other subjects, double blind, with a 100 question organoleptic survey before and after the tests. We tried just one a day, .25mg pure Cannabinoids vaporized, THC, CBD, CBC, CBG, THCV, CBN, CBL is from CBC, CBE from CBD as well as some of the propyl versions of CBD, CBC, CBG, CBN, like we did with THCV. Also a dozen terpenes, the main ones found in Cannabis, with and without pure .25mg THC vaporized, this was almost 15 years ago, that work started the focus on terpenes today.
-SamS


IMO they should test anything oïds and make as many multivariate analyses as possible.
It seems anything that passes the blood-brain barrier is psycho-active one way or another and most of these substances have synergy.

Who we should probably really listen to are the Chinese.
They are proving rapidly what TCM has claimed all along to get all the valuable patents; they already have hundreds of patents on cannabis. Ayurveda similar story.
They have been breeding for the best cannabis for thousands of years and probably knew what they were doing.

That said they did not know the active ingredient THC, or the other Cannabinoids, the Han Chinese are not and were not Cannabis smokers and without consuming Cannabis by smoking (the last 500 years) or by eating you can not breed superior Cannabis. Can you list a few of the hundreds of patents the Chinese have on Cannabis?
They do use it for TCM, but it is a very minor component, I have spent time in China at the TCM University in Chengdu talking with officials about Cannabis use for medicine in China. I have a bunch of Chinese medicine bottles with Cannabis as an ingredient.
The folks in India were Cannabis users, that is for sure.

What is the best Cannabis? For whom?


I am an expert on your DP too, just check my avatar :) It was from a freebee I got from GN when he still had his shop.
What makes DP so special could be related to liquorice. Somehow that is addicting especially to children.

I found that DP smelled more like anise then liquorice but some people do love the smell.

If you ask Dutch people abroad what they miss most many will answer liquorice -which is a weird answer- and they order it specially back home.

“In traditional Chinese medicine, liquorice (मुलेठी, 甘草) is believed to "harmonize" the ingredients in a formula and to carry the formula to the 12 "regular meridians".”
It does make you feel warmer, they are probably getting the patent as we speak.
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
x
As said, most monoterpenes at commonly achieved concentrations have either no (= no scientifically proven) or many weak unspecific effects. This makes them difficult to study and understand, let alone predict something.

Not true at all, have you tried them? Terpenes alone maybe, but terpenes and .25mg THC smoked or vaporized, anyone can see the differences, anyone that smokes Cannabis. Try it then say they have weak effect modulating THC. They both potentiate and alter the effects, if you try the right terpenes with THC.
-SamS



It's much like TCM... a mixture impossible (at least with current knowledge) to delineate. There are, for some ingredients, rational reasons to be found but usually, it's just a weird mixture developed by trial and error during more than thousand years.
Some of these concoctions are certainly similar to folk medicine in the Middle Ages, others have changed because two different plants had the same name, some ingredients are simply there because someone liked them, because they hadn't anything better, of just because... and then, there are the toxic ones, those having already a dozen effects on their own, and others which serve to equilibrate yin and yang or whatever spiritual meridian.
So, no, I'm no advocate for monoterpenes beyond their nice smells and aromas ;) . And no, I still don't 'believe' (my education and experience tells me so) that they could, unless taken additionally at elevated amounts and not as part of the drug itself, markedly alter a trip in a pharmacological way. I attribute found differences mostly to two factors, A: people sensible enough for faintest alterations and with a marked sense of self and B: an aroma therapy like effect, an association of smells with certain memories, or a 'short circuit' between olfactory perception and the very subjective psychoactive experience of THC.

Besides, I don't get your association of me with Germany and doping doctors???

BTW, there's a reason for licorice having said effects and they have absolutely nothing to do with cannabis.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As said, most monoterpenes at commonly achieved concentrations have either no (= no scientifically proven) or many weak unspecific effects. This makes them difficult to study and understand, let alone predict something.
-OO

Not true at all, have you tried them? Terpenes alone maybe, but terpenes and .25mg THC smoked or vaporized, anyone can see the differences, anyone that smokes Cannabis. Try it then say they have weak effect modulating THC. They both potentiate and alter the effects, if you try the right terpenes with THC.
-SamS
[/FONT]
That's like one were saying that not all birds can fly and that flying involves complex physical laws and the other answers that they once threw chicken in the air and drew pictures of this experience... if you get what I mean ;) .
 

Donn

Member
That's like one were saying that not all birds can fly and that flying involves complex physical laws and the other answers that they once threw chicken in the air and drew pictures of this experience... if you get what I mean.

I'm not sure I get what you mean, anyway. The terpenes + THC experiment that he describes seems like a satisfactory test of

that they could, unless taken additionally at elevated amounts and not as part of the drug itself, markedly alter a trip in a pharmacological way.

He's saying it doesn't take elevated sensibilities or extravagant amounts of terpenes. If it's repeatable, then we can move on to sort out which terpenes are doing what, recognizing that it's complicated by the ensemble effect. At worst it seems way early to discount terpene effects.

(Do you really mean to distinguish monoterpenes, from I guess sesquiterpenes like humulene? If so, why?)
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
I'm not sure I get what you mean, anyway. The terpenes + THC experiment that he describes seems like a satisfactory test of

Yes, it is a test, I never disputed that. Though, it does not tell us anything about pharmacological activities, modes of action, and the like. However, it may give us clues or a working hypothesis. Based on the limited reliable scientific literature on the subject my hypothesis here is that it's something not a currently explored pharmacological activity. As said, it could for example be an 'olfactory reflex'...


He's saying it doesn't take elevated sensibilities or extravagant amounts of terpenes. If it's repeatable, then we can move on to sort out which terpenes are doing what, recognizing that it's complicated by the ensemble effect. At worst it seems way early to discount terpene effects.
I know exactly what he is saying. He told me that exact story about a dozen times and I think he also stated the amount of terpenes added in one of these but I don't recall how much it was (which doesn't change anything). If it is repeatable, then at least there is hope but it doesn't mean that it is scientific nor that a specific pharmacological effect is involved which will be observed when consuming a normal joint.
Besides, I'm not denying their effects; I'm simply don't think that it's an effect mediated via one specific receptor or the like.

(Do you really mean to distinguish monoterpenes, from I guess sesquiterpenes like humulene? If so, why?)
Sure I do! The additional 5 carbons and additional functional groups make a huge difference in terms of pharmacokinetics and also pharmakodynamics. Just look at beta-caryophyllene ;) .
X
 

Donn

Member
hm ... of the various terpenes that show up in the test reports, humulene and caryophyllene didn't seem to me to be very high on the list of terpenes that might really account for differences in strain psychoactive properties, but I see beta-caryophyllene does have some significant not-so-psychoactive effects with CB2 receptors. (And dope-smelling dogs need it.) So there's perhaps a good reason why it's one of the five terpenes reported on the Steep Hill fingerprint.

To me this is one of the useful questions right now - if we can get big collections of data published on different cannabis samples, what needs to be on the charts? Even SC's list of over thirty terpenes omits farnesol, a sesquiterpene. Later if we start to think there's something going on with farnesol, there's a big burden of proof to get all those reports redone so we can correlate farnesol levels in samples. Anything that really might figure in the psychoactive or other effects we care about, should be made known to the testing labs and others who might be involved in designing labels, "fingerprints" etc.
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
I took BCP just as an example for a sesquiterpene with a fairly good and comparatively selective receptor affinity. Your assumption is likely correct. ;)

You can get some good inspiration by the following article:
Karl W. Hillig, A chemotaxonomic analysis of terpenoid variation in Cannabis, Biochemical Systematics and Ecology 32 (2004) 875–891
As we don't know what does what, the more data can be included into the analysis, the better.
 
Manna Gooey- Terpene test

Manna Gooey- Terpene test

Check out these results. Manna Gooey is super high in trans-Ocimene and as far as I can tell that attracts predatory mites.
I really like this lab the test was only $50.00 and they provided results on the Cannabinoids besides the terpenes I was looking for.

https://www.facebook.com/moonflowergarden
 

Attachments

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Bongstar420

Member
Firstly, they are called wild type, not eco type. You won't go to a college and find the breeding professor calling the source material for modern breeds "eco types." And the correct way to refer to a plants chemistry is chemotype... But according to the profesors at university, the chemotype of all wild type Cannabis sativa plants were low THC (around 0.5-3%) with some populations being devoid of THC entirely. High THC is said to be exclusively the result of people and that this trait will go to <3% in any population left to the wild. This is said to be founded on observing Cannabis for generations. They also say that actual wild type Cannabis is extinct and that all wild Cannabis is in fact feral.

And, there are terpenes that get you blasted...in the right person under the right conditions.

But as a super common example, Nutmeg oil will get you wacked out. I could list dozens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_type

https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=5543
http://herbs.mxf.yuku.com/topic/361...ter-psychedelic-than-Nutmeg-nuts#.VhM4H5dqo4U


Now don't get any ideas and dope your capsules with some secret oils- put em on the label


...But I do agree that there is little chance some terpenoids are psychoactive like THC.

No, I do not think originally all drug bio-type wild cannabis ecotypes (races) were high in THC as a rule. But there were some wild strains (cultivars) within those ecotypes that were high in THC, without a doubt IMO (ex. mutants). IMO it was some of those mutant wild strains, I assume, that were used by early humans for selective breeding of varieties of cannabis when they noticed a difference in the effects vs. 'normal' strains.

:tiphat:
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Ask a hemp farmer/breeder and he will tell you that there is indeed something called ecotype ;) . Given the unclear taxonomy, the notation ecotype is better than talking of land races or even 'strains'. Chemotypes are again something else... Spurrs phrasing isn't perfect but you're actually not more right than he is :D .
Nutmeg is not psychoactive per se but a metabolite of one monoterpene may be. Although, not every person does metabolise in such a way... having to be the right person in the right conditions is not the definition of a psychotropic drug, especially not one which becomes also toxic at the needed concentration.
Though, speaking of psychoactive terpenes: One of the most potent psychoactive substances mother nature has to offer and which comes even close to synthetics (LSD) is salvinorin A. But that's a diterpene and in fact one of the very few psychoactive nitrogen-free substances.
So much for an early morning pissing contest.

PS Spurr got banned quite a while ago, hard to lose an argument then...
 

Donn

Member
Nutmeg is not psychoactive per se but a metabolite of one monoterpene may be.

The story I get is that it's psychoactive due to myristicin. An anticholinergic, the bottom of the psychoactive barrel, psychoactive only at toxic levels. That matches the story with nutmeg use.
 
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