Switcher56
Comfortably numb!
Not all nute lines are created equal. I had issues in Promix until I changed my nutes out. Issues are in the rear view mirror (knock on wood)
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Why are all PH chart different????
- Thread starter little-soldier
- Start date
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
I was thinking about going with a small percentage of ammonium to counter it.
In your opinion, do you think that the root zone pH being around 7 is a bad thing? Especially with the use of a fulvic? FWIW, I mostly have issues in flower now. Veg looks fantastic, although the runoff pH is the same everywhere.
Joint Lock
Active member
Thx hammerhead but if I follow this chart and use 5.8 to 6.0 for hydro then Mn will not be absorbed properly by the plants. Also a lot of people use 6.0-6.2 for coco and according to this chart not only would Mn not get absorbed properly but calcium too which is supposed to be very importent for coco. Unless there is another chart for coco lol. We should have a chart for every medium
This is why u set it to 5.8 and let it rise to 6.2 before resetting
Been doing hydro for 20+yrs trust me
It didn't help that I didn't like watering it because of fungus gnats. Promix has the added problem of exposed limestone which will not play nice with metals and P. Some chelators handle alkaline conditions better than others. EDTA I've heard is prone to trading metals for Ca if there's a lot around.
A lot of times symptoms lag a week or two behind the problem. The pH is probably high because the veg looks fantastic, and maybe organisms are eating your acid and making things alkaline. Going forward I'd be watering a lot. Calcium phosphate is the problem with going above 6.5 with fresh chelated nutes. There are polyphosphate additives that might keep it in solution but still most plants have problems absorbing it as the pH rises, which is I think also the reason why the availability of things tails off with decreasing pH in the chart.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
I like the way you think. My issues always start at flip. Always. I'm currently trying to drop the pH using pyroligneous acid. I'm not sure it's a real benefit here. Maybe no harm, but as to the pH, I don't think there's any advantage. Now that I've been scrutinizing my runoff, I'm seeing a direct correlation to the high pH with high EC.
My conclusion(as of today anyway) is that I'm feeding too much, with possibly less than optimum ratios and the high CEC vermiculite in my mix is hanging on to certain elements. Possibly nitrates.
Thanks as always for a well-grounded response.
Switcher56
Comfortably numb!
I never had an issue with gnats. AAMOF gnats can be found dormant in many substrates outside Promix. As mentioned I had issues with my previous nutes, which are all non existent under my current regime. It is where I was recommended to start from local authorities on the subject. (baby steps)
Switcher56
Comfortably numb!
... from my Bonsai days, vermiculite should never be used as a component in substrates. Not only does it turn to mush over a period of time, is the fact that its cation exchange capacity is too high.
It's a bad chart then. Even for unchelated Mn.
Chelated Mn is probably stable enough for a day in the pot or 3 in the res. Ca does not precipitate below 6.5. Except maybe as oxalate or something else you don't have to worry about.
I'm not a believer in swings and it would not be surprising if those who use hydroponics legally try to keep their acidity as level as possible. Nutrients are too interconnected to be altering things.
Organic acids of all kinds probably are consumed in one way or another. Citric acid works great at the beginning and helps with Al toxicity at low pH, but as the biological activity intensifies it becomes worthless. Vermiculite has high CEC compared to perlite but it's not that high, nor is a buffer a bad thing per se. Nutrient buildup is operator error. If you check out High Times from the year or two before Green Merchant you'll see a lot of people growing great plants in 50/50 perlite-vermiculite in 5 gallon buckets. Phosphate and water cling to it and are still very available to roots. Nitrate is the first thing that gets sucked up by plants.
I yearn for the gentle ways of foreign gnats and have never found bugs in any bagged items.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
I'm thinking of lowering the ratio of vermiculite just to keep anything that doesn't have a near-zero CEC out of my mix. I did not know that the phosphates would be the one thing to hang out there. Good to know. It sounds like a good lead to follow up on. I've definitely been over feeding. Still trying to work it out, especially as I lock in my VPD levels. I'm seeing a connection between high runoff pH and high EC. Plants that are within a tolerable range of runoff EC have a pH of 6-6.3 with a 5.5 input. That seems reasonable to me, especially with the addition of fulvic.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Don't I already know! The mush hasn't been a major issue, but the high CEC has. My next transplant set I'm considering cutting it out completely. My only hesitation is that I hand water and my flowering plants get fed twice daily as it is. They're root-bound, so this has worked reasonably well thus far. I really wish I could use my blumats in the perlite, but alas. What I wish I could do would be a coco/perlite mix. Could likely run them there. Being in a perpetual environment, it's always tricky to incorporate new methods, such as a coco learning curve.
It would be 100x more sensible to find a way to run more water through.
ButterflyEffect
Well-known member
Agreed. I'm setting up an auto feed system with a 3-5 day capacity res. It'll push ~4 cups of feed per plant at lights on and a few hours before lights out it'll run the same amount of plain water. I'm pretty sure I've been over feeding. Runoff EC has been up to double the input in some cases. Now that I'm getting that in check, I still see pH levels around 6.5 which is confusing to me, as I assumed it'd drop with the EC, but alas.
