HELP! -Plants will not root in my RWDC? To much light, confused??

takeiteazy · Nov 7, 2020

Hi All

I ran my RWDC a few years back and had a couple of excellent grows.

It's a homebuilt system which holds approx 200l, has chiller so water temps 18c plus high flow rate and two ceramic stones in each 'tub' powered by x2 big compressors, i also flume wayer when it comes out of chiller into main 'control' tub.

PH is 5.8
EC is 0.6 (actually 0.4 as my water is 0.2)

The cuttings i took (Gelato) rooted in a few days in RR cubes, then on into 3" cubes.

Once i had a lot of roots at the base of cubes i transplanted into 115mm net pots, with cubes sitting level with top and surrounded by stones.

This is where is has ALL stoppped, they have been sitting for 12 days and the roots are not growing into my solution?

They are yellowing and its actually as if the roots do not want to grow, usually by now i have a nice mass of brilliant white roots!

The cubes are not wet/soaked, the airstones are causing bubbles/spray that are wetting the stones, 'wick action' but no growth?

Everything is spot on but as i stated i have been out of the game for a while.

I have x2 1000w air cooled magmun xxl, plus a small 250w, all HPS.

temps are all good between 18c-25c.

The ONLY thing i might of noticed is that when i knocked one light off the plants appeared healthier/greener on that side??

Anyone got any ideas what is going on? The other cuts i had left over in cubes under a tiny fluro are still healthy/lush green and i have hardly been monitoring them or looking after them.

Any ideas?

p.s i have also raised the height of some plants ib net pots and been dipping them everyday in solution but still no growth?

If pics are needed lmk......

Cheers

takeiteazy · Nov 7, 2020

Just to add i am using one part Ionic grow plus i have added liquid seaweed.

When filling the system i went to far slightly with ph down, it went to 5.2, but i raised it back to 5.8 with Liquid Silicon.

Then after 24 hours when everything was settled i added plants.

f-e · Nov 7, 2020

It sounds like you have a shit ton of light but no food. I root cutting at a higher ec than that. Make up a little ec1.3 flower feed. No silicone, no seaweed, just get the pH between 5 and 6 and give each block enough to fill it.

Flower feed this time because P is like the energy part. Stalled plant's are often rebooted with P. The K promotes roots and stem. If you don't have flower food, then use your grow and the P from your phosphoric acid will have to do. Hopefully you're in a hard water area, so can use a fair bit. Don't use the silicone trying to get more in. Nothing but feed and pH down.

I presume it's P-acid you have not Nitric. The N-acid is great, especially to make elements in the water supply more available. It reduces the K usage though. Which isn't right today

takeiteazy · Nov 9, 2020

I only used the Liq Sil as i presumed it would be more beneficial to roots and to raise the PH.
I used Growth Tech stuff-weak Potassium silicate @6%, nothing else in it. No P.

I also have plenty of flower and boost nutes to hand.

Mine are in my system now, so unsure how i can do a 'flower feed this time'?

They are suspended in 200l of nutes.......

I only added a bit of seaweed to try and kick start them/try to get the roots to blast out of the net pots as in the past.

I have never added flower feed this early ever tbh.

1.4 (1.2) seems very high for cuttings imo? I have never been that high even in my last week of flower with boost added!!

So ur thinking is my feed level is to low even though i have others still left over not in my system on the same level feed that are lush green, the only difference is my failing ones are in my system and have had liquid silicon to bring it up from 5.2 to 5.8 as i overshot on the ph down.

Surely the roots should still be 'searching' for food?

cheers

Crowmax · Nov 9, 2020

sounds like your roots never had the chance to develop into the clay and into the reservoir.

They probably dried out before reaching any moisture or the nute solution.

You said you placed the rockwool on top of the clay stones?

How far away is the water with the nutes?

Do you use any drippers or hand watering the clay pebbles?

Some photos would be helpful

Did you try remove any plant to check what's going on under the rockwool?

takeiteazy · Nov 11, 2020

Yes that's the exact problem. The roots were a MASS in the 3" rockwool cubes before i transplanted them into net pots, surrounded by stones, with around 1" of stones at the bottom of net pot.

Then the net pots sit 1" below nute level, the ONLY way they can feed is via stones which are damp/wet YET they are not seeking out the food?

So overall a 2 to 2.5" distance between nutes/solution and the cubes. I pulled one cube out and was dry but still had a few roots in contact with wet stones.

No drippers, all bottom fed, its a RDWC (think of a single bubble pot but MUCH better).

I have some very strong thick roots at the edge of some pots which are getting solution but it's as if they do not want to progress further, single thick white ones but no branches....

It's very odd.

What pics would help as i'm confused......The roots are have access imo to solution/feed as the stones surrounding are wet/cubes dry, surley they should seek out the perfect solution readily available??

I have also increased EC to 0.8 (0.6) with bloom feed, i'm scared of over feeding tbh, i want them to search for food but they do not want to??

Thanks for replying, it is MUCH appreciated Crow.

loyral · Nov 12, 2020

the drain layer is to thick..dont make it higher than 1stone..it takes 2 days max 5 to colonize the medium..the plants should sit dry enough to dry out once a day untill they are in the water..also too much light the first 14 days isnt helpfull in dwc..the veg rh is usually anyway a bit too dry in dwc first weeks..

f-e · Nov 12, 2020

I have used the Ionic range for years. Doesn't that one say 7ml per liter on the bottle and come out about 1.5 ?
I remember doing a pebble flood/drain with it where I didn't once go past 1.6 but generally it got higher.
People tend to drip in coco with it a bit lower. ec1.3 is common. Though with led's its higher.

0.8 -1.0 is for dormant plants. Cuttings or the final weeks. I guess out of your light they would be fine. I don't know your space but you seem to have a fair amount of lighting for something. Your plants are in 3" blocks which sound like they got fed at 0.6 and left some time ago.

Presuming your Lux meter says 20,000+ then I would mix up the 1.3 of flower and water the blocks they are living in. Every day with run-off. Only your past efforts leave me as puzzled as yourself regarding feed numbers. You should read the bottle.. 7ml I think.. make a liter and check what your meter thinks it is. Maybe your meter is crazy..

As with all things, cover your bases. Don't do them all.. why believe me?.. Just do one or two and see that it works.

zoo · Nov 16, 2020

You are using 2250w on plants with no roots. that is insane

root them with the 250w alone, complete waste of energy.. how bigs the space?

takeiteazy · Nov 22, 2020

Still no luck.
7ml/L comes out as 0.18 with me, i have access to several EC meters, all bluelab.
Room is only 3.2m x 1.2m. x2 1000w Magnum cooled and a 250w hps standard shade in middle.

Some answers are confusing me as you mention 'run off' etc, there is none, it just gets recirculated, it's basically a DIY top notch ALIEN RDWC but better imo.

I've had the cubes 3", 2" and 1" below the bubbling solution level.........

They are basically looking like ill mother plants now tbh, same THICK whites root on one or two plants, they DO NOT want to enter the feed/solution?

I have the EC at 1.4, PH 5.8/5.9.

So i've eliminated water level heights (always before i started with level at bottom of basket then drop to 1" below basket when roots start to EXPLODE)

The only roots that have protruded are just stunted, some even look as is they are backing off my solution and circling in the pots?

New veg growth seems very light in colour, like when you flip, plus it literally bends 90 degrees???

Every other grow i have done, once you see one TINY amount root that's IT!!
2 days and they have exploded!!!

Plus i have always gone from same EC/PH as when roots are massive at the bottoms of the cubes to when transplanted into the system.....

I'm at a loss tbh, totally confused, yes light is overkill nut i have tried with one 1000w off other on as well, no difference, just using the 250w in the middle spanning 3.2m would be barely any light tbh.....

Lower leaves yellowing with only veins green, higher leaves/new growth same but seem contorted/bending??????

I'm lost!!!

Crowmax · Nov 22, 2020

Still no luck.
7ml/L comes out as 0.18 with me, i have access to several EC meters, all bluelab.
Room is only 3.2m x 1.2m. x2 1000w Magnum cooled and a 250w hps standard shade in middle.

Some answers are confusing me as you mention 'run off' etc, there is none, it just gets recirculated, it's basically a DIY top notch ALIEN RDWC but better imo.

I've had the cubes 3", 2" and 1" below the bubbling solution level.........

They are basically looking like ill mother plants now tbh, same THICK whites root on one or two plants, they DO NOT want to enter the feed/solution?

I have the EC at 1.4, PH 5.8/5.9.

So i've eliminated water level heights (always before i started with level at bottom of basket then drop to 1" below basket when roots start to EXPLODE)

The only roots that have protruded are just stunted, some even look as is they are backing off my solution and circling in the pots?

New veg growth seems very light in colour, like when you flip, plus it literally bends 90 degrees???

Every other grow i have done, once you see one TINY amount root that's IT!!
2 days and they have exploded!!!

Plus i have always gone from same EC/PH as when roots are massive at the bottoms of the cubes to when transplanted into the system.....

I'm at a loss tbh, totally confused, yes light is overkill nut i have tried with one 1000w off other on as well, no difference, just using the 250w in the middle spanning 3.2m would be barely any light tbh.....

Lower leaves yellowing with only veins green, higher leaves/new growth same but seem contorted/bending??????

I'm lost!!!
__________________

sorry to repeat my self,
Do you top feed them somehow, every day?

Can you post some photos ?
Of the plant and inside the dwc buckets? To see for example how moist the netpots get.
Photograph anything that might help us get a clue and upload it

asher1er · Nov 22, 2020

I’ve always top fed when transplanting into a rdwc system till some of the roots are sitting in the solution.. it’s possible you let the roots dry out too soon.. I’ve ran fresh clones under more light with no issue but I do run a higher ec from the start.. :tiphat:

takeiteazy · Nov 22, 2020

I never top feed, i just lift net pots out and 'dip' them in my solution so that the cubes are about halfway into the solution, i hold them there for about 10 seconds.

Since this grow is the first i have done for years i honestly can not remember where i had the water level tbh when starting out/trying to get them to root into the solution.

I know 100% that when they have burst through/established it is 1" below the net pots all through to flower.

It was either level with bottom of pots or 1" above to get them going? I currently have solution touching the bottom of the net pots atm.

I think they could be drying out, as i only dip them every 3 days if that.........and i checked last night and had a fook full so i pushed my finger down into a cube and it did feel dry!! Even though i have raised solution level, water bubbling into the stones and very lightly dampening the bottom of the cubes.....

I don't want to increase EC levels any more tbh, i plus friends NEVER go beyond 18/20EC tbh, that's even in flower. I was always told on here to ignore manufacturers doses as they are vastly higher, go by the plants, always better to underfeed etc, no lockout....

I'll see if i can get some pics up later.

Thanks guys

takeiteazy · Nov 22, 2020

Some pics, you can see the strong stunted thick roots, i have the water levels high/level with bottom of net pots, pics also do not really show the level of bubbles/excitement/water splash in each bucket!

The ONLY logical thing i can think of is that they were drying out????

Am i seeing clawing or cupping here? The last pic where i removed plant from room into daylight (white background), the new growth leaves/top, the very ends are distorting up?? Seems like Nitro overload??

pissed off now tbh, feel like dumping the whole system and trying a 2 part nute/canna??

https://imgur.com/a/ddVrRiD

potty1 · Nov 22, 2020

Id up your water temps to a min of 20*c
Your roots look like theyve started to grow out then stopped for some reason.
If they were mine id up the water levels to a cm or so below the net and up thd temp to 20.

DARKSIDER · Nov 22, 2020

takeiteazy said:
Some pics, you can see the strong stunted thick roots, i have the water levels high/level with bottom of net pots, pics also do not really show the level of bubbles/excitement/water splash in each bucket!

The ONLY logical thing i can think of is that they were drying out????

Am i seeing clawing or cupping here? The last pic where i removed plant from room into daylight (white background), the new growth leaves/top, the very ends are distorting up?? Seems like Nitro overload??

pissed off now tbh, feel like dumping the whole system and trying a 2 part nute/canna??

https://imgur.com/a/ddVrRiD

To be honest it does look a little dry from where im looking too as you say i would also cut the plastic off the rr so the roots can get to the outside of your cubes maybes it will help a little give them room to breathe so to speak hope you get it sorted soon :good:

takeiteazy · Nov 22, 2020

DARKSIDER said:
To be honest it does look a little dry from where im looking too as you say i would also cut the plastic off the rr so the roots can get to the outside of your cubes maybes it will help a little give them room to breathe so to speak hope you get it sorted soon

There is no plastic on the root riot cubes, they are sitting in the 3" rockwool cubes.
If your are referring to cutting some of the mesh pot away i honestly do not think it is the problem and never has been for every grow.
There are roots visible, but they aint budging???
I've underfed, now at 0.12EC (i put 0.14EC earlier as my water is 0.2)
I've tried lower solution levels BUT did i dip them/water them enough at the time??
The water levels are now raised as in pics and tbh i doubt they need any watering via dipping....
Why the mad curl on the top leaves??
To much light?
Nute lockout??

Arrrggghh!!!

DARKSIDER · Nov 22, 2020

takeiteazy said:
There is no plastic on the root riot cubes, they are sitting in the 3" rockwool cubes.
If your are referring to cutting some of the mesh pot away i honestly do not think it is the problem and never has been for every grow.
There are roots visible, but they aint budging???
I've underfed, now at 0.12EC (i put 0.14EC earlier as my water is 0.2)
I've tried lower solution levels BUT did i dip them/water them enough at the time??
The water levels are now raised as in pics and tbh i doubt they need any watering via dipping....
Why the mad curl on the top leaves??
To much light?
Nute lockout??

Arrrggghh!!!

NO DONT cut any mesh pot away im referring to the plastic on the outside of your rockwool blocks maybes top feed them till the roots get a grip so to speak :good:

takeiteazy · Nov 22, 2020

I've never removed that tbh ever.
Could simply be underwatering, everything else seems fine, my own laziness not dipping/watering everyday?
an upward curl is the plant trying to make shade on its stomata as its transpiring faster than the rate of water uptake??

Or i could be completely wrong...lol

Crowmax · Nov 22, 2020

takeiteazy said:
I never top feed, i just lift net pots out and 'dip' them in my solution so that the cubes are about halfway into the solution, i hold them there for about 10 seconds.

Since this grow is the first i have done for years i honestly can not remember where i had the water level tbh when starting out/trying to get them to root into the solution.

I know 100% that when they have burst through/established it is 1" below the net pots all through to flower.

It was either level with bottom of pots or 1" above to get them going? I currently have solution touching the bottom of the net pots atm.

I think they could be drying out, as i only dip them every 3 days if that.........and i checked last night and had a fook full so i pushed my finger down into a cube and it did feel dry!! Even though i have raised solution level, water bubbling into the stones and very lightly dampening the bottom of the cubes.....

I don't want to increase EC levels any more tbh, i plus friends NEVER go beyond 18/20EC tbh, that's even in flower. I was always told on here to ignore manufacturers doses as they are vastly higher, go by the plants, always better to underfeed etc, no lockout....

I'll see if i can get some pics up later.

Thanks guys

WoW big plants, they survive pretty well, though would be much worse

OK so, try to hand water them at least once per day, AROUND the netpot until you see roots touching the nute solution.

Try not to over saturate the rockwool with water, even no water it at all if you unsure. Only water around, the clay pebbles.
(its a bit hard now NOT to over saturate with water these big rockwool cubes because they act like wick.)

I think you will see roots in 5-7 days, just dont stop hand watering (use your nute solution from the buckets)

I would also use a EC no more than 1.0 at this point

Good luck, i wait for updates...

HELP! -Plants will not root in my RWDC? To much light, confused??

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