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Old 01-12-2018, 08:31 PM #81
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Originally Posted by jidoka View Post
I am not familiar with the term residual. How do you test for that?

Mg is a very mobile element. With proper tissue testing the plant tells you how much it needs. Cannabis needs less than most plants... not more. Slow is right, P is the issue most have
I'm not familiar with testing methods, period. What I'm most interested in seeing is "Just" cannabis. All elements absorbed have been totally and completely converted to "Cannabis."

Most people are not aware cannabis is a dynamic/hyper accumulator. Mobile or immobile, if there is an excess of an element cannabis is going to lock it in with new growth. Unconverted and completely immobile. You can flush for a month of sundays and your flowers will still crackle with excess mag. (as an example)

What tests show levels of unconverted NPK, micros and other elements not necessary for plant growth? Tests showing *any* levels of these I consider residuals in the plant. Residuals mean heat and harsh.
(btw, I use a P based pH up. Most hydro growers these days do not and I believe it makes a rather large difference) <---- Edit: No I don't. Thought that was wrong and had to look it up. My pH up is Potassium based. lol
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:58 AM #82
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So my idea of a flush is remove my nitrate source for 4-5 days. Maybe this pic illustrates metabolism with ratios similar to what Slow is talking

Pic is through those blue sunglasses things 3 days into no nitrate feed
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:15 AM #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slownickel View Post
But on the chance that you do read Tiedjens you will see the arguments and results of feeding having the balance say 1-2-1, which is reported in P2O5 and K2O. This means more phosphate than potash. However, if you do the math, you would quickly realize that this is actually a 1-1-1 in terms of actual P and K (phosphorus and potassium).
Is this ratio optimal for soil only? I'm very interested in what you have to say but generally it seems you are speaking of needs in soil only. I grow soilless. How does this apply? I have seen these principles in action: purple/magenta stems and petioles in vegetative growth and subsequent growth turning green after 2 wks flowering, when the nutrient is changed to higher P.

You said 1-2-1 is optimal yet it is really 1-1-1. Care to clarify for the layperson?
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:02 PM #84
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oh... oh jeeze..
Quote:
Originally Posted by slownickel View Post
Read Dr. Victor Tiedjens, who also advocated nutrient balancing and look at his production data, both yield and quality went through the roof. O.. K... AND..? So??
The stuff you buy in bottles, guess what, does exactly this! !!!!

You know this guy is old news and like... I can't even begin anymore... Like... who the F doesn't use "balanced plant nutrition" and all those concepts in growing? Der no one, because farming is a process...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_A._Tiedjens
"He was credited as "one of the pioneers in growing plants in chemical solutions." [1]"

lol... Better not name drop that guy around all the organic anti science morons you find all over this site, feeding chemicals to their plants that they claim are chemical free, no pesticides lol rofl,, yet all these farms test pos for pesticides Hummm... Not blaming you.. I'm just .... I'm pointing out irony? It's irony right????? llol


The same that has been happening here, yields and quality going through the roof.
Nutrient uptake is one thing, balance is another.

And that's what's happening in bottles we're feeding, that the companies have formulated, with their schedules... You feed, you follow the process, you get your environment down, you get a heavy yeilding clone and dial it in, you will up yeild and quality.


In NO OTHER agricultural industry does CalMag exist

Wrong. Donald trump wrong fake news. I mean come on are you serious??? Is this for real? Did we just go from rational to lala wackado land?? Yep we did
https://www.google.com/search?client....0.3iFZSuaK3Ns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_nitrate
Use in agricultureAs of 1978, only 170,000 tons/year were produced for applications in fertilizers.[2] The fertilizer grade (15.5-0-0 + 19% Ca) is popular in the greenhouse and hydroponics trades; it contains ammonium nitrate and water, as the "double salt" 5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3·10H2O. This is called calcium ammonium nitrate. Formulations lacking ammonia are also known: Ca(NO3)2·4H2O (11.9-0-0 + 16.9 Ca) and the water-free 17-0-0 + 23.6 Ca. A liquid formulation (9-0-0 + 11 Ca) is also offered. An anhydrous, air-stable derivative is the urea complex Ca(NO3)2·4[OC(NH2)2], which has been sold as Cal-Urea.
Calcium nitrate is also used to control certain plant diseases. For example, dilute calcium nitrate (and calcium chloride) sprays are used to control bitter pit and cork spot in apple trees.[3]


https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/gar...fertilizer.htm


https://www.researchgate.net/post/wh...n_plant_growth


>>>> This is a whole big thread on the use of cal mag in the industries you claim it is not used.... WTF...

What is the importance of calcium nitrate in plant growth ?


i would like to know the importance of calcium nitrate to plant . i know that this fertilizer is made up of two nutrients : nitrate and soluble calcium . a biochimical response should be appreciated to know how green plants uses these two nutrients . thanks.
Popular Answers (1)

2 years ago
Timothy Jenkins
BIOMIN

Yes to Samantha Jayasundara's answer (non acidifying as compared to ammonium-nitrogen fertilisers such as ammonium phosphates and particularly ammonium sulphate. Other options where soil acidification is undesirable are calcium ammonium nitrate or applying calcium as gypsum or lime (with nitrogen applied additonally. Calcium nitrate also has an advantage for foliar fertilizer use being a soluble form of calcium. This is very useful in some tree crops including apples for which it can otherwise be hard to increase calcium levels.
With respect to the initial broad question, of the role of calcium and nitrate, a non-exhaustive list of roles of these major plant nutrients are:
Calcium Roles: Cell wall and general structure (particularly high levels in the middle lamella). Cell membrane function in nutrient transport. Nutrient uptake. Protection from aluminium and manganese toxicity. Plant defence responses. Improved photosynthesis. Root growth, elongation, mycorrhizal fungal promotion, root mucilage production (increasing root contact with soil). Regulating enzyme systems. Water regulation and nutrient balance in plant tissue. Legume nodule structure and nitrogen fixation.
Calcium helps activate cellular repair and plant defence mechanisms including selective cell death in advance of a potentially invasive disease that requires living cells and defence chemicals (e.g. phenolics and phytoalexins). High calcium levels also assist plant cells to with the formation of callose, plant cells providing protective barriers to injured plant parts. Calcium improves the function of antioxidants, protecting plant cells from biochemical stresses of cell damage.
Calcium deficiency results in structure disintegration such as leaf tip burn, dying ends of shoots, detaching leaf stalks, blossom-end rot (in tomatoes and members of the cucumber family), bitter pit (in apples), increasing risk of pests and disease entry. The symptoms reflect the importance of calcium in cell structure but also the protective role of calcium against one of the plant’s own enzymes that breaks down the pectin layer between cells.
Nitrate: Needs to be reduced to ammonium (occurs within the roots and shoots of plants and in mycorrhizal fungi). The ammonium is then the source of nitrogen for amino acid formation and thus all proteins (including enzymes) required by the plant. Many other plant compounds require nitrogen also such as DNA, RNA, ATP, hormones.


All Answers (8)

2 years ago
Susantha Jayasundara
University of Guelph

Hi Maher,
Calcium nitrate is the preferred inorganic N fertilizer source where soil acidification is undesirable and when both calcium and nitrogen are required to be supplied at the same time.
Susantha.

2 years ago
Timothy Jenkins
BIOMIN

Yes to Samantha Jayasundara's answer (non acidifying as compared to ammonium-nitrogen fertilisers such as ammonium phosphates and particularly ammonium sulphate. Other options where soil acidification is undesirable are calcium ammonium nitrate or applying calcium as gypsum or lime (with nitrogen applied additonally. Calcium nitrate also has an advantage for foliar fertilizer use being a soluble form of calcium. This is very useful in some tree crops including apples for which it can otherwise be hard to increase calcium levels.
With respect to the initial broad question, of the role of calcium and nitrate, a non-exhaustive list of roles of these major plant nutrients are:
Calcium Roles: Cell wall and general structure (particularly high levels in the middle lamella). Cell membrane function in nutrient transport. Nutrient uptake. Protection from aluminium and manganese toxicity. Plant defence responses. Improved photosynthesis. Root growth, elongation, mycorrhizal fungal promotion, root mucilage production (increasing root contact with soil). Regulating enzyme systems. Water regulation and nutrient balance in plant tissue. Legume nodule structure and nitrogen fixation.
Calcium helps activate cellular repair and plant defence mechanisms including selective cell death in advance of a potentially invasive disease that requires living cells and defence chemicals (e.g. phenolics and phytoalexins). High calcium levels also assist plant cells to with the formation of callose, plant cells providing protective barriers to injured plant parts. Calcium improves the function of antioxidants, protecting plant cells from biochemical stresses of cell damage.
Calcium deficiency results in structure disintegration such as leaf tip burn, dying ends of shoots, detaching leaf stalks, blossom-end rot (in tomatoes and members of the cucumber family), bitter pit (in apples), increasing risk of pests and disease entry. The symptoms reflect the importance of calcium in cell structure but also the protective role of calcium against one of the plant’s own enzymes that breaks down the pectin layer between cells.
Nitrate: Needs to be reduced to ammonium (occurs within the roots and shoots of plants and in mycorrhizal fungi). The ammonium is then the source of nitrogen for amino acid formation and thus all proteins (including enzymes) required by the plant. Many other plant compounds require nitrogen also such as DNA, RNA, ATP, hormones.


2 years ago
Arpana Mishra
Pt.JLN P.G College,Banda

Thanks, Mr. Jim for detailed and best answer.

2 years ago
João Coutinho
Universidade de Trás-os-Montes e Alto Douro

Calcium nitrate is a very soluble fertilizer and is a common source of both nutrients in foliar application, specially when Ca is needed, as it occurs with some crops as tomato and apples.
Its application to soil probably needs to be restricted to situations when you want a very fast effect of N and with no rainfall. As all the N is in a NO3 form, other situations may result in high risks of N leaching, with economical and environmental consequences.
For Ca application to soils, we may use amendments such as Ca carbonate.

2 years ago
Jose Delatorre-Herrera
Arturo Prat University

Hi Maher: Both calcium and nitrates are essential elements for plants. In the soil Calcium is an active partipante in the cation exchange and nitrate anion can be a pemanecer in soil solution being absorbed or leached to lower layers. A nutritional status in saline soils or boron are recommended high concentrations of calcium nitrate as NO3 is antagonistic with borates and chlorides, while calcium is antagonistic with sodium. The pH of the calcium nitrate solution of 6.5 so his reaction is acid.
2 years ago

Anoop Kumar Srivastava
National Research Centre for Citrus

Interesting answers . We have tested the effect of calcium nitrate in citrus as 1.0% . Its quite impactful , since citrus requires much higher quantity of calcium than any other nutrients , if nutrient removal pattern by fruits is followed closely. Soils having better calcium saturation level on the exchange complex , produced much better peel color ( Higher ratio orange red to green color ) , tighter fruits and better shine on the peel , besides the better size. Physiological maturity of the fruits , evident from higher TSS/Acid ratio. Calcium nitrate has also shown equally good response through fertigation than foliar spray . However , better efficacy of calcium nitrate is obtained only when , there is no deficiency of boron .

2 years ago
Anoop Kumar Srivastava
National Research Centre for Citrus

Thanks Maher. Another very intriguing issue regarding calcium nutrition of plant , i missed in my earlier communication , is the tripartite relation between calcium , magnesium and potassium . Potassium on one hand , is balanced by concentration of calcium and magnesium on the other hand . This relation operates at both the levels, soil and in plants system. Soils rich in exchangeable-K, especially in those soils having illitic mineralogy , excess of k has to be balanced by addition application of Ca plus Mg , if the maximum response of these nutrients has to be harnessed."

I'm gonna say this in the nicest way possible... You're just fucking wrong. Balls to the wall wrong dude. And I can't believe you'd even defend your wrongness.

I've been in doing horticulture and ecology since college, and no where never, has anyone ever said what you said. I can't even.. lol.
Sure things change... But.. Yeahhhh... lol... Idk where you got on with that whole cal mag bent.

It sounds like you got told that, from some other guy, who is also wrong.. Or somehow somewhere you got the idea in your head? But um,, yeah. That's just wrong. Calcium nitrate is widely used in agriculture, it is not a "stoner product". That's not only wrong, its frankly stupid and ridiculous to say.


That is a stoner industry input and you all seem to suck it up by the truckload and all that Mg really does screw up your quality.
YEAH..> Really?????/ ROFL OKAY SURE
https://www.google.com/search?client....0.h_lSlPGDM_o

This is something that is readily googleable for crying out loud..

Cause let me tell everyone listening the best way to screw up your quality is NOT providing adequate Ca, Mg, N, P, K, etc, and calcium nitrate is a good source of it N and Ca... And you really haven't been able to prove otherwise other than just say some stuff that is frankly, wrong. Demonstrably wrong. Highlariously wrong lol.


Most farmers/agronomists know the problems you get with all that Mg. Maybe go watch the video in my thread by a couple of PhD's (oops, scientific types, start the bonfire!)
Links??? But then again, I could keep linking all day about cal mag too... Think I just did lol.. And how beneficial it is, especially for fruiting crops with high Ca requirements.. Its used a lot. No one seems to mention anything about problems with Mg, and the info I provided should cover everything else you mis conceptualized about calcium nitrate, it's use and applications, how and when and why a farmer would apply or not.


Sorry you are so closed minded to the "science".
You're talking PSEUDOSCIENCE.... PSEUDO SCIENCE is not science

MISREPRESENTING science, is not science. Taking concepts from one guy, and mis applying them, or misunderstanding them and what they mean, is not science.

SCIENCE, is a PROCESS. That's it! A process

Process. I'll say it again and keep saying it. Process. It's a process.


But on the chance that you do read Tiedjens you will see the arguments and results of feeding having the balance say 1-2-1, which is reported in P2O5 and K2O. This means more phosphate than potash. However, if you do the math, you would quickly realize that this is actually a 1-1-1 in terms of actual P and K (phosphorus and potassium).
Right, there is a huge difference between the actual amount of an element and how it is actually found as a molecule in a fertilizer which can make NPK ratios not only confusing, but nearly worthless and really they are worthless anyways because who knows what a plant needs until you apply it and find out!

And then again, it doesn't matter, because cannabis will take up luxury elements, and drug cannabis needs it otherwise you're going to impact yields and quality. You wanna grow hemp??? Don't fertilize your plants. Plenty of studies show you can grow some great cannabis stems and stalks by not fertilizing your plants - Cause more often than not in any study you'll read for cannabis they aren't trying to grow bud.

But no one in their right mind who grows great weed cares at all about that, because it's boring nonsense that doesn't mean crap.

You don't know what the plant needs, and it always changes from strain to strain, slightly. You grow good clones, you use a well known line, and you don't skimp out ... ie, follow the process.., check ph, go up to these ppms and not over, etc., etc., You WILL have success... None of this "quality from mg and ca" crap your talking about. Still no clue what kind of line of thinking you are on, or where you get such stuff from, and where the links are to what you say, if any of what you claim actually applies to cannabis in any way.

And moreover, I don't really care that ship sailed last post, you had that chance... But then you doubled down on the whole cal mag claim and once you get a guy like you saying stupid crazy lies on the internet that are easily disproved with a 2 second google search, well, yeah,... Then it is only my fault I waste more time with you lol.

Again, those that tried these ratios all saw amazing results in cannabis, but hey, that is science! There is definitely cause and effect. But if you don't understand what drives the cause, you are just guessing!

Those that use veg bloom see amazing results! Those using GH or H+G see better! You are not doing science, you are making up stuff, CALLING it science. Jesus f'n christ!

Hey I can call anything I want in the world anything, that doesn't magically make it so! Make a mental note of that as you move forward in your endeavors in life.

Ratio of what???? NPK?? 1-1-1??? That's the most arbitrary bs ever. YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED MY FACTS about the growth habit of cannabis, efficient vs heavy feeders, nute schedules...

But now the magic ratio is 1-1-1??? 1-2-1?? Of what??? What chemicals then??? How many grams of XYZ chemicals do we add to a gallon Juan? What is the process that you say is best. How do we account for the plants' needs at different stages, and different plants having different requirements, since some plants are obv cal mag hogs, and others aren't, and so on and so forth...

Cause saying "the best is this and that doi!" doesn't mean jack squat and well proof???? Any proof??? Of course not. "the best ratio is this"... Says who??? Based on what??? Where is the, ahem, science showing this is what is best for drug cannabis, and this is how the process goes now, where is the data that shows the process works vs controls. There is no process, there is no science. It's pontificating. Its hypothesis. Its what dad would call "nonsense kid".

Any moron all day can say "well you want balanced nutrition for your plant" F'N DUH... That doesn't mean anything. That is not what to use, how much, and when. Everyone says that, derp. It's good sounding nonsense. Of course you want to "balance plant nutrition"... IE> FEED CHEMICALS in the right proportions. You know who's done all this already for all the plants under the sun?? Nutrient companies. OH THE HORROR right?


I know lots of commercial farmers that think the way you do, you aren't alone. At the end of the day, their results are mediocre and have more excuses than there is sand in the desert.
O... K... I somehow doubt what you say. I'm glad you know other farmers who think like me, tells me we are all likely doing something correct. Any farmer that follows the process will have success and it ain't mediocre no matter how much you want to sit in a chair and pontificate about things you don't know but want to say. But of course yours is the best with the best yields and its even better because you mixed the chemicals yourself!!! Lol you "balanced" the plant's nutrition! Would it be better if you extracted and mined the elements from the earth you used! I'm sure you'd tell me yes it is THE BEST pot! Better than all these guys mixing their own chemicals instead of just buying a bottle from a company who already did all the work and saves you time, which is money, while you are thinking you are saving money rofl, spending all that time.. oh jeeze!

You know those guys who make their soil with their hands, they have the best pot to. Or so they claim. I used to make all my soil by my hands too. Yep it magically does make it better magically that's how magic works, like magic, magically!

Its already been established though in another thread that I'm the best ever, so, yeah. Ya'll just chasing


Given that everyone that has attempted to understand soil science (not what is preached by the fertilizer industry) and apply soil science is loving the result.
Huh? Soil science and what can be considered good agricultural practice, is a constantly changing thing as information changes and we find out new things. The fertilizer industry IS the farm industry; their success is the based on the success of the farmer, which means YAY we all live and don't die cause we get to eat food and there isn't a famine!!!! That is the science, the process. The process may change, sure. Conventional farms shouldn't till anymore, and if they are, well, again they probably shouldn't and should change their practices and they will probably save money and stop problems somewhere down the line. And that's exactly what's happening. The soil science on that is, well, you don't till because you will cause erosion, loss of humus, which will cause nutrient leaching, and of course the logic thus here should ring out. How do we know? Because this is what we have discovered in the process of both till and no-till agriculture and the results. Has nothing to do with nutrients, fertilizer, fertilizer companies, monsanto, corporations, etc..., or anything at all.. Its simply something farmers always did, and others didn't, a variation in the process, and no one really knew why one way or another... Well really farmers would till because it was easy and that's what they thought was the good thing to do as a part of their farming process. But the process of doing one or the other definitely has different, measurable results. The science, is figuring out that process, this does this, this does that, and being able to show it, actually really show it... That is a real tricky trick. Actually really showing it. A lot of so called "science" pretends on a surface to show something, to have results, but the truth is it's a trick, an artifact, or just something else.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!
Bullshit! You beat the fuck out of that horse, knock it down, tie it up in some twisted bondage infinity knot, put a funnel in it's mouth, down the throat, and force it in till its full. It's a horse you can get that horse to drink some water.

Maybe you can show us some water to drink. You want to say all these things, but they are meaningless, ie, your case does not hold water, for horses to drink. The river is dry. Does that make sense? It should.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:44 PM #85
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ok ok, I did it again. I know....insanity.

So Cannabologist, you equate calcium nitrate with 'calmag'? yet calcium nitrate doesn't contain magnesium. what the fuck?
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:56 PM #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudraya View Post
Is this ratio optimal for soil only? I'm very interested in what you have to say but generally it seems you are speaking of needs in soil only. I grow soilless. How does this apply? I have seen these principles in action: purple/magenta stems and petioles in vegetative growth and subsequent growth turning green after 2 wks flowering, when the nutrient is changed to higher P.

You said 1-2-1 is optimal yet it is really 1-1-1. Care to clarify for the layperson?
What is given to you on a label is N-P-K, however, the P and K are reported as phosphate and potash on the label, which are whole molecules and don't represent the real phosphorus and potassium until you do the math. Reducing P2O5 to P, and K2O to K, will give you different numbers in terms of P and K. Read what I wrote again and see if you understand it.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:52 PM #87
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Got it. Thanks

To paraphrase, the other part was: soil absorbs nutrients differently as does coco, hydro etc...do you think this ratio is appropriate to other mediums than soil? Or is it a matter of a minor tweak?
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:06 PM #88
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From shroomdr in another thread:

A (20-20-20) fertilizer is not equal parts N:P:K.
P and K are calculated as P2O5 and K2O.
The label factors in the atomic weight of oxygen

P is 43.6% of what is labeled.

P=31 O=16.

P2O5 = (2 x 31) + (5 x 16) = 142.
P = (2 x 31)=62.
62/142 = 43.6% P in P2O5.


K is 83% of what is labeled.

K=39 O=16.

K2O = (2 x 39) + (16) = 94.
K = (2 x 39)=78.
78/94 = 83% K in K2O.


So 20-20-20 is really 20-8.6-16.6
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:08 PM #89
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Originally Posted by Avenger View Post
ok ok, I did it again. I know....insanity.

So Cannabologist, you equate calcium nitrate with 'calmag'? yet calcium nitrate doesn't contain magnesium. what the fuck?
HA! I totally started and quickly jumped right over. Should I even ask for highlights or does the cal-mag question sum it up?
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:02 PM #90
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Here is another coco grow I am converting to custom hydro, including calcium nitrate but zero calmag. Gotta get P up a little more
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