Whorled Phyllotaxy - Info please?

I also was unable to breed for this trait but I have had a couple that were whorled on secondary branches.

Really haven't had any of late and sometimes the trait occurs early then just goes away returning to normal structure.

They seem about equal in m/f ratio in fact most seem to be females now that I think about it.

The compactness makes the structure desirable but just a little bit more. Hardly worth seeking but if you get one keep the clone. Bog

Sam_Skunkman said:

They are whorled phyllotaxy, I made a cross of a male Whorled Phyllotaxy, which I seem to find more of, and a female Whorled Phyllotaxy and got no whorled offspring.
I like the way they look. Do people see more males or females with this?
I kept several females around they are still whorled.
I would like to see ones that had whorled Tri stems on not only off the main stalk, like is common, but also then again on the sets of branches off the first tri stems, and again from the 2nd that are on the first. So it is tri whorled on tri whorled on tri whorled branches. Never seen it, I have seen a few tri seconday branches just a few.

-SamS

Click to expand...

Nearly every plant I've found with whorled phyllotaxy has been male as well.

I had a C99 plant that grew small buds on the fan leafs. I wish I still had pictures

I have seen that once on one of my strains...never reappeared.

Rather than starting a new thread, figured I bump this fairly recent one.

Sam_Skunkman said:

They are whorled phyllotaxy, I made a cross of a male Whorled Phyllotaxy, which I seem to find more of, and a female Whorled Phyllotaxy and got no whorled offspring.
I like the way they look. Do people see more males or females with this?
I kept several females around they are still whorled.
I would like to see ones that had whorled Tri stems on not only off the main stalk, like is common, but also then again on the sets of branches off the first tri stems, and again from the 2nd that are on the first. So it is tri whorled on tri whorled on tri whorled branches. Never seen it, I have seen a few tri seconday branches just a few.

-SamS

Click to expand...

Quoting you because it's partly in reply to your post and got question.

I created three crosses with a whorled male that had 4 sets at each node (on some branches, others had 3) and am about to grow out a few whorled female offsprings from those. Those have 3 instead of 4 though. Didn't expect to find them so easily in the F1 already, and while in the other cross most are male, I found 2 males and 2 females in 12 plants (I know, small pool so means little). I read somewhere it's a recessive trait so planned on looking for them in F2.

This is the CH/C99 dad. Besides the whorling it had trichs on fans and balls.


The regular ICE mom, vegged for about a week under 600watt after seedling stage under 18watt. Extreme and massive branching.


This is the result, ICE x Cannalope Haze (which I just recently found out is C99), topped a plant and sexed it, this is the top, rooted days (not even a week) ago.




( ^^spilled some nutesolution on it. )

It clearly has a better mini canopy compared to a non-whorled sister of her. It factually creates more plant material in the same time. I don't really expect more yield, I do expect and even shorter veg time (combined with cropping/topping/scrogging).

I read several times the trait tends to disappears after a certain amount of nodes, while the opposite is going on with my plants. The whorling increases which each node till it reaches a point where 3 leaves originate from the same height and it sort of stabilizes. I don't veg very long and also haven't been able to observe yet what happens when female buds form but based on some pics I've seen of whorled bud sites it does reappear when the internoding shortens again during flowering.



Maybe you can shine some light on this for me Sam. If it's a recessive trait, the trait only appears when its homozygous. Now if regular opposite phyllotaxy is P and whorled is p, I can deduct that my male was pp. If I would have crossed it with PP it wouldn't show up in any of my offspring (all Pp), while it does show up in offspring, so the mom must have been Pp, which means 50% should be whorled (2x Pp and 2x pp per 4 plants, which could actually be the case, haven't grown out that many yet).

However, you crossed a whorled male and female and didn't get whorled offspring which shoots a hole in my limited-understanding theory. While if its recessive and only shows up when homozygous that would have been pp x pp which is all pp, i.e. all whorled. Is it possible your whorling was caused by different genes or combi off than mine or others in general?

It's just an attempt for fun and practice so far, but I created literally thousands of seeds with that same dad and will continue to look for whirled offspring and observe.

I think worled phylogaxy is interesting but it refers to a different type of plant like some monocots

Sativied said:

Rather than starting a new thread, figured I bump this fairly recent one.



Quoting you because it's partly in reply to your post and got question.

I created three crosses with a whorled male that had 4 sets at each node (on some branches, others had 3) and am about to grow out a few whorled female offsprings from those. Those have 3 instead of 4 though. Didn't expect to find them so easily in the F1 already, and while in the other cross most are male, I found 2 males and 2 females in 12 plants (I know, small pool so means little). I read somewhere it's a recessive trait so planned on looking for them in F2.

This is the CH/C99 dad. Besides the whorling it had trichs on fans and balls.
View Image

The regular ICE mom, vegged for about a week under 600watt after seedling stage under 18watt. Extreme and massive branching.
View Image

This is the result, ICE x Cannalope Haze (which I just recently found out is C99), topped a plant and sexed it, this is the top, rooted days (not even a week) ago.

View Image

View Image
( ^^spilled some nutesolution on it. )

It clearly has a better mini canopy compared to a non-whorled sister of her. It factually creates more plant material in the same time. I don't really expect more yield, I do expect and even shorter veg time (combined with cropping/topping/scrogging).

I read several times the trait tends to disappears after a certain amount of nodes, while the opposite is going on with my plants. The whorling increases which each node till it reaches a point where 3 leaves originate from the same height and it sort of stabilizes. I don't veg very long and also haven't been able to observe yet what happens when female buds form but based on some pics I've seen of whorled bud sites it does reappear when the internoding shortens again during flowering.

View Image

Maybe you can shine some light on this for me Sam. If it's a recessive trait, the trait only appears when its homozygous. Now if regular opposite phyllotaxy is P and whorled is p, I can deduct that my male was pp. If I would have crossed it with PP it wouldn't show up in any of my offspring (all Pp), while it does show up in offspring, so the mom must have been Pp, which means 50% should be whorled (2x Pp and 2x pp per 4 plants, which could actually be the case, haven't grown out that many yet).

However, you crossed a whorled male and female and didn't get whorled offspring which shoots a hole in my limited-understanding theory. While if its recessive and only shows up when homozygous that would have been pp x pp which is all pp, i.e. all whorled. Is it possible your whorling was caused by different genes or combi off than mine or others in general?

I do not think so, I think I would have found at least some whorled in the seeds I grew from a Male Whorled X a Female Whorled I grew maybe 100 seeds from the cross. If it was recessive then like you say it would have not expressed in the parents with out being resesive/resesive for the trait and when bred to another resesive/resesive it would give resesive/resesive progeny, it did not and I could not find one whorled in the progeny.
That said I have found higher frequencies of whorled in certain populations, and that makes be believe it might be genetically modulated, but I do not know.
-SamS

It's just an attempt for fun and practice so far, but I created literally thousands of seeds with that same dad and will continue to look for whirled offspring and observe.

Click to expand...

X

Thanks for the reply. Then I'm just going to try some different crosses (back, self, fem, whorled male x whorled female, F1 and F2 ) and see what happens. So far I got 20% whorled but that's over just a couple of dozen plans. Seems unlikely though that I got that lucky, including 2 females from 2 separate crosses, if the male didn't actually increase the frequency in the offspring. I'll try to plant a larger amount somewhere outside soon to get a better idea and see if there's a ratio.

The male I used started out as a quad (as in 4 set), and the first branches had 2, 3 and one with 4 sets, so far the branches of the plant I posted above are normal, but, another one that was topped off a regular one seems to start spiraling (leaves in set not opposing each other). It seems to starts to spiral up to a point where two leaves appear from the same side of the plant, leaving enough open space to accumulate enough auxin to create a third leaf at the opposing side at the same level and actually go from spiral to whorled (3 or more at same level).

I've been reading up a bit on phyllotaxy in general last night and it's making me look at plants in entirely different way. Concentrations of auxins determine where to initiate a new leaf, but there is still little known about how it is able to place and space those leaves according to a mathematical pattern - let alone how it switches from one to another and/or back. Computer models/simulations that can produce similar results have been suggested but it seems it's a quest by itself for a whole group of people worldwide to figured out how the plant adhere to fibonacci numbers.

My whorled plants have 'golden angles'

I saw that when I was germinating maArxjamaica hybrids, they popped with three or four cotyledons - and had trifoliate leaves. They didn't make it in my garden which was my any exception at the time. If I got a trifoliate I would probably set her outside and see what she done

I've seen several (on pics and 1 in real life) myself, where there are three cotyledons. I'm not sure but I think the proper label for such plants is tricot (e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurha/8664428752/ and http://sunflowernsa.com/research/research-workshop/documents/Hu_Tricotyledonous_05.pdf )

I've made some picture of one of my whorled females, one I topped, sexed and revegged (top is clone which I'm vegging now) and standing in my living room (so stretches) which gives some more insight in the behavior I described earlier. That is mine are going from regular opposite to spiral to twisting and rather than starting with the first leaves and disappearing after a few nodes, it does the opposite.




The behavior pointed out by the white arrow is what I noticed in my male as well (but with a 4th on the left). Instead of alternating two of them stay together. I have yet to see if that equals an extra bud every 2 nodes.

Regular opposite:

But, notice the golden angle ( ) at the top, it starts to spiral and leave space for a third leaf.


Here's a different take on phyllotaxy in which it is used for essentially the same advantage (catching more light):
http://www.archivenue.com/phyllotaxy-towers-by-saleh-masoumi-verki/

canna woop! said:

and had trifoliate leaves. They didn't make it in my garden which was my any exception at the time. If I got a trifoliate I would probably set her outside and see what she done

Click to expand...

Just to add, trifoliate is not the same as tricot or whorled phyllotaxy. Trifoliate refers to the leaflets on a compound leaf. I.e. a clover (Trifolium) is, unless you're lucky, trifoliate. So are the second set of leaves on most cannabis plants.

Sam_Skunkman said:

I would like to see ones that had whorled Tri stems on not only off the main stalk, like is common, but also then again on the sets of branches off the first tri stems, and again from the 2nd that are on the first. So it is tri whorled on tri whorled on tri whorled branches. Never seen it, I have seen a few tri seconday branches just a few.

Click to expand...

It seems the whorling - in my case anyway - only starts when and where apical dominance is established (showing the influence of auxin again). I went over pics of the quad dad and my current whorled females and it's rather obvious now: the lateral/side branches started whorling 'after' the plant was topped. That could explain what you posted above.

Attachments of whirled vs regular, same cross, same age, same treatment. Although the regular seems to be more sativa-dom, the top views show nicely how the whorled spreads out its leaves more efficiently.

I popped 15 more seeds to see if there's a ratio or at least see if there's an abnormal high frequency, to be continued.

Looks like I just lost my regular opposite phyllotaxy control plant, i.e. it looks like it's starting to whorl.



The definitive whorled plant. Going to top both soon.


From the 15 seeds I planted 16 germinated. Broke one myself, and the one with the two seeds aren't good candidates so got 13 left for the test.



So far they all look very similar


These came from a single seed, includes a "unicot (?)"


Now that the one in the first pic starts to whorl as well it's starting to look like ALL the offspring of the ICExCH cross got the whorl trait. Could be 50% but then I happened to pick the 6 whorled out of 12 before the whorled trait starts showing which seems a bit unlikely. Haven't seen one with 4 leaves yet like the CH dad.

Interesting....
I find the inheritance of whorled phyllotaxy very interesting. As are the efforts to unravel it all. Do you still have a clone of the mother and/or father that these whorled seeds came from?
I have found many double yolkers even a few triples over the years. The three seedlings were not all equally vigorus.
I also have a 25 year old clone of O Haze that is Fasciated, when cloned from the non-fasciated parts of the plant, small clones do not express it until they get over a few feet tall, then they all do, veg or flowering. I used it as a parent and saw no progeney that were fasciated. Now that I think about it I have seen many female fasciated but I do not remember ever seeing many male.
Anyone ever seen a fasciated male plant? Got a picture? I would love to cross a bunch of female fasciated X a bunch of male fasciated and see what happens, if anything....
As for whorled, has anyone kept a clone alive for years and maintained the whorled trait? How long?
-SamS

I don't have the male parent nor female parents in clone form anymore. Originally the goal wasn't to breed for whorled phyllotaxy, merely to create a whole bunch of seeds that would give me enough to play with. The ICE I picked for its structure and being so vital. Really thick stems. The taste and smell were undesirable (an understatement). Although the offspring smells pretty good so far I never planned to be able to recreate the F1.

I do have a couple of vials with a bit of pollen in my freezer though, saved some for a possible backcross. I also have couple of dozen of these ICE seeds (which is either a selfed or reversed and rather stable).

Also, I already have thousands of these F1s already (3x outcrosses, 1x in with ch itself). Was a little bummed getting only a single viable seed from a fem seed test (tiresias mist) so figured I do a regular seed run instead. Got a bit carried away and ended up with quite a bit more than expected and needed.

I got the following from the same whorled dad:
ICE x CH (most, perhaps even all eventually, whorled)
Chunk x CH (many whorled, same deal as ICE x CH, haven't grown out enough in number and duration)
L8N8 x CH (popped only one, a regular opposite so far)
CHxCH (haven't planted any of these yet)

L8N8 is from that one viable seed I mentioned above, has Chocolate Fondue as the mom, which in turn has CH as the granddad. It's the most sweetest haze I have ever smoked and the most stretchy plant I have ever seen. The idea behind using the ICE and L8N8 is to at some point down the road combine them.

The ChunkxCH cross is actually the one I planned to work with most, and those too are mostly whorled (and as with the ICE cross perhaps all eventually). I'm not certain about the Chunk being just chunk, came from a grower who removed a male too late. I call this one Penelope for now, hence the P with pics below.

P#1:
Whorled in a neat way like the ICE cross.



P#4: whorled like P#1 but killed for being too stretchy during sexing.

P#5:
Whorled in a weird way, had to cut a few leaves of, basically the ones it had while rooting and wasn't elongating the stem.

Few days ago:


Now:




There was some consistency in the pattern of two leaves directly below each other (3 times) but it's getting messy now. Needless to say P#5 isn't going to be a candidate as a parent for F2, but I'm curious to see what it will turn into. May have to top it to get it to grow more normally.

They are all clones, but all the terminal shoot from topping the clone mom.

Although I mentioned I didn't find a quad again yet, I did find one during an initial seed viability test, but, it was missing its terminal shoot. Leaves had straight/smooth edges but were also wrinkled and unhealthy. Basically a runt.

It seems - based on not necessarily reliable resources - one of the downsides of mutations like this is that it's unstable in a different way, i.e. can lead to runts. I do get the impression that is more the case with the Chunk x CH than the ICE x CH (which so far are all very similar). Haven't popped enough of the Chunk x CH to really be able to make that determination though but so far it's as if the ICE can handle the whorling better.


One of the double-yoker seedlings, the regular one, came up nice and green last night after I reburied it so got 14 test candidates, for now, still need to transplant them - might have to go guerrilla on this one.

I'll shoot a few new pics today, including a group shot that shows how extremely vigorous the whorled ICExCH is from the previous posts. If I had 6 of those I'd be ready to switch to flowering.

Couldn't add more pictures to the post, so separate reply: I have a pic already in an album here of what looks like a fasciated Skywalker Kush bud. Would have been more obvious from the topview and in comparison with regular buds around it. I remember posting somewhere it expanded horizontally instead of vertically, didn't know it had a name, thanks for that. It's a terminal bud:

Sativied said:

I don't have the male parent nor female parents in clone form anymore. Originally the goal wasn't to breed for whorled phyllotaxy, merely to create a whole bunch of seeds that would give me enough to play with. The ICE I picked for its structure and being so vital. Really thick stems. The taste and smell were undesirable (an understatement). Although the offspring smells pretty good so far I never planned to be able to recreate the F1.

I do have a couple of vials with a bit of pollen in my freezer though, saved some for a possible backcross. I also have couple of dozen of these ICE seeds (which is either a selfed or reversed and rather stable).

Also, I already have thousands of these F1s already (3x outcrosses, 1x in with ch itself). Was a little bummed getting only a single viable seed from a fem seed test (tiresias mist) so figured I do a regular seed run instead. Got a bit carried away and ended up with quite a bit more than expected and needed.

I got the following from the same whorled dad:
ICE x CH (most, perhaps even all eventually, whorled)
Chunk x CH (many whorled, same deal as ICE x CH, haven't grown out enough in number and duration)
L8N8 x CH (popped only one, a regular opposite so far)
CHxCH (haven't planted any of these yet)

L8N8 is from that one viable seed I mentioned above, has Chocolate Fondue as the mom, which in turn has CH as the granddad. It's the most sweetest haze I have ever smoked and the most stretchy plant I have ever seen. The idea behind using the ICE and L8N8 is to at some point down the road combine them.

The ChunkxCH cross is actually the one I planned to work with most, and those too are mostly whorled (and as with the ICE cross perhaps all eventually). I'm not certain about the Chunk being just chunk, came from a grower who removed a male too late. I call this one Penelope for now, hence the P with pics below.

P#1:
Whorled in a neat way like the ICE cross.
View Image
View Image

P#4: whorled like P#1 but killed for being too stretchy during sexing.

P#5:
Whorled in a weird way, had to cut a few leaves of, basically the ones it had while rooting and wasn't elongating the stem.

Few days ago:
View Image

Now:
View Image

View Image

There was some consistency in the pattern of two leaves directly below each other (3 times) but it's getting messy now. Needless to say P#5 isn't going to be a candidate as a parent for F2, but I'm curious to see what it will turn into. May have to top it to get it to grow more normally.

They are all clones, but all the terminal shoot from topping the clone mom.

Although I mentioned I didn't find a quad again yet, I did find one during an initial seed viability test, but, it was missing its terminal shoot. Leaves had straight/smooth edges but were also wrinkled and unhealthy. Basically a runt.

It seems - based on not necessarily reliable resources - one of the downsides of mutations like this is that it's unstable in a different way, i.e. can lead to runts. I do get the impression that is more the case with the Chunk x CH than the ICE x CH (which so far are all very similar). Haven't popped enough of the Chunk x CH to really be able to make that determination though but so far it's as if the ICE can handle the whorling better.


One of the double-yoker seedlings, the regular one, came up nice and green last night after I reburied it so got 14 test candidates, for now, still need to transplant them - might have to go guerrilla on this one.

I'll shoot a few new pics today, including a group shot that shows how extremely vigorous the whorled ICExCH is from the previous posts. If I had 6 of those I'd be ready to switch to flowering.

Click to expand...

#3 picture and #5 picture are Fasciated, were they also tri whorled phyllotaxy?, are they female or male, it looks like #3 & #5 are just different photos of one female plant?
-SamS

Try selfing a female Whorled to itself by turning a clone of the whorled female to male via STS and pollinated the same female clone and see if the progeny have a higher incidence of whorled?
Do the same if you have a female fasciated, turn a cutting male, self it to itself and see what the progeny are.
These are true S1 seeds, as they are selfed and made with only one plants genes.
When I made cuttings of a fasciated plant I had, even parts cloned that were not fasciated would turn fasciated when they got over a few feet tall, starting with the middle apex meristem, if I remember correctly. Is yours the same?
If you do any of this please post the results.
IC member GMT has a variety Bruised Nuts, that was claimed to be mostly whorled phyllotaxy.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=256517
-SamS

Sam_Skunkman said:

#3 picture and #5 picture are Fasciated, were they also tri whorled phyllotaxy?, are they female or male, it looks like #3 & #5 are just different photos of one female plant?

Click to expand...

Same plant indeed (pic 4 too), and definitely female. I selected it because it did seem to start whirling (the plant I took this clone off), but looking back it was so small and tight it could have been just fasciated. Because it was so tight I haven't really observed this one close enough to see where, how and when it started. It was in any case not neatly regular opposite. The lowest parts I cut off when rooting this clone are spawning new nodes again, showing it was almost a quad. From the top like this: >< rather than X.

And yes as I mentioned in an earlier post I will self it, back cross it (assuming the frozen pollen is still viable), and will keep clones to cross it with a male in the future as well. I planned on using the tiresias mist of which I still have some in a bottle (I think it's just CS), it worked last round I was just too hasty and didn't have enough light on the reversed cutting ending up with paste rather than pollen. I will try to get or create some STS to do it properly. Main candidate for selfing is the one out of the ICE cross but maybe I'll do the P#5 (chunk x ch) as well.

If space and time allows I will self the fasciated as well. I'll clone it in any case and keep it around. It doesn't look as happy as the rest but is creating healthy roots rapidly so should be fine soon.

I will continue to update this thread with the results and observations. And thanks for pointing out that other thread, the whorl is strong in that one, my seedlings so far all start out regular.


Some pics of the whorled male it started with.

In hempy instead of my regular setup so I could remove him later:


After recovering from topping and a bit of LST. Some tri, some regular, bottom right is the quad.


Preflowers at a quad node:



My flower closet (in which I usually veg for week roughly).

4 days later and a couple of hours later (HPS on shot):

Hit submit by accident... ah well, need to get 50 posts for more album space anyway

I moved P#5 to the middle and removed P#4. P#4 in the last image above should be P#6. I don't know if P#6 is male or female, currently still regular opposite (the only one of the bunch).

P#1B is a clone of the same plant as P#1A (great structure also during sexing, strong smell, clearly the best of the 12 P (chunk x CH) so I figured I grow two from that one. P#4 and P#1B are from cuttings taken after sexing, sort of revegs, and that isn't working out very well. Good chance I will remove P#1B too and allow the two IH (ICE x CH) plants to take in that space (4x4' feet total).

Currently under 400 watt, swapping to 600 watt in a few days. And then I will also top the 3 larger ones - almost feel bad about changing its natural structure but I have to keep them together height-wise.

IH#5 is the one I will self, assuming it turns out female again... it should of course, I sexed the plant from which I took this clone and was female, but it looks so much like it's dad it's almost scary. Except that it has thicker stems and the leaves looks more like mom too.

In addition to being so bushy on the top side, IH#5 (and the whorled P#1A, definitely female) has so many roots I can no longer pull it entirely out of the tube (see attachment).