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something surely not new

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BabTaHerbless

New member
IMG_20190725_081933.jpg

IMG_20190725_081829.jpg


just in order to share something surely not new to almost everybody, and possibly having some tips:comfort: reported by first hand experience of long term peolpe involved on breeding , here two different kind of G13Amnesia haze f3(soma's gear from 2011) popped less than two weeks ago.
As you can see, as far as the number of leaves introduce me to the following consideration- correct me if i'm wrong, please- one seems apparently a triployd and another a tetraployd. Not stressed since they popped, exept for a 12 our soaking that has preceded the traspalnting, they are still growing in 1.4 liters coco's pot under a 250Mh, feeded at a 0.69/71 Ec, Ph 5.8.
temperature- not over 33 Celsius- could be addressed like the only source of a possible stress, but leaf shape doesn't reveal any sort of disease. for that, i'm guessing that this kind of pheno could be more than a recessive one induced by enviromental stress.

Not sure that this recessive trait could persist during the whole life cicle of these two crops but, out of twenty seeds i'v drop, i got two per cent of this kinda poliployd and i was guessing if some of you, good&bad:biggrin: guys out there, have any experience on how this trait could pass to the next progeny. Nevertheless seems that this trait has been passed to another cross i have already under the lamp (AHxSB) and i'm gonna be persuaded that same male i'v used, and lost in the past 2011, was carring something more than..


I hope my english shall sound understandable



thanks in advance

cheers

all the best


BT Herb
 
B

BabTaHerbless

New member
thank you so much, GMT.
I'v tried to find some thread before posting but i'v haven't probably search so accurately.




All the best
 
GMT

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Fascinating, but you can waste too much time chasing irrelevant fascinations.
 
GMT

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Potency / quality of stone,
vigour, resistance, and to some extent taste and smell.
In my personal view that is.
I put almost 20 years into the tri thing. I know someone growing them outdoor with great success, but personally I outcrossed them in the end. " You can't chase everything at the same time" Tom Hill kept telling me. I was adamant that I could. But in the end, even though I went from a random 1 in 10000, to 1 in 3 and kept the quality of stone and yield, I lost taste and strength. I'd want 2 joints rather than 1.
Its no good chasing colours or structures or anything other than what achieves the purpose it will be put to. In the end, they are for destroying to get someone stoned. So let's not start thinking we are artists or architects or chefs, we're more your metaphorical pharmacists. So make medicine not art.
 
WelderDan

WelderDan

Well-known member
Veteran
Triploid, or polyploid refers to the number of gene pairs in a plants genetic makeup. You can't determine the "ploidy" of a plant by the number of leaves, only by using a microscope.

You have what appears to be a trifoliate, or even a quadfolite, other wise known as whorled phyllotaxy.

Neat traits for sure, I've never had a female trifoliate, only males, and all but one grew out of it.
 
B

BabTaHerbless

New member
Hi guys, pleased and honoured to have you here.


GMT, appreciated tips.Really. to me it's truly important to have a tempered confrontation with you all, as far as i can learn what i miss to understand.at now,I ' ve read just till page 15 of your old post on tri&quad and if i'm correct, even dubtfully about the real nature of those kind of tri&quad, seems you got yor fun on working to an ipotetical multiheaded strain line; and that's exactly why i get back on growing:even in need of a good quality-well grew medication, it's a passion i just cannot resist to or at least, if you prefeer, a fascination.

that been told, obviously, wasting time and time working on something you know will not bring you to anything it's not the kind of goal i'm looking for but, who knows...


to be true,I remind the AHf2 I'v used to get these F3( and some more batches of BX1 F4) as a true potent pheno, even a good yelder one. that doesn't mean almost nothing till i'll verify what has come from her.

It's something like eight years i'v been stopped from growing weed and when i decided to restart i'v opened the friedge and i've said to myself: why not, men.why not?
I did love that G13Amnesia, and not just me so... i think you understand quite well what i mean.


then, if i got what you told me, you're stating that your work on DJ stuff has reveal that tri and quad bring a poor progeny.Isnt'it?





Hi Welder.
Yes, you true. as told to GMT, i' v read about it and that's what it is: a whorled one or at least a quad-one longside a tri.

Anyway, i do appreciate as well your contribute. Feel free to comment everytime you find me on fault.


all the best


BT Herb
 
GMT

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
When you engage in niche breeding, you drive genetic drift, not only towards your selected taste, but away from the background qualities. I'm not saying offspring from this or that is good or bad. Just that something's are irrelevant, so don't prioritise them. You may lose something you need.
 
B

BabTaHerbless

New member
GMT said:
When you engage in niche breeding, you drive genetic drift
Click to expand...




Hi GMT, good morning, or evening...


you mean a bottle neck, an empty bottle neck, LOL.

you may be true about that despite i've constantly seen many peeps working by cubing this or that in order to fix some trait of the polyhybrid they are working with and then outcrossing the result to related genetics.

in "my" case, in the few twenty laughable seeds i've popped from these F3, even if it's too early to state, i got a visible variation that goes from a slightly apparent sativa hybrid, that i refeer to as a less indica one, to a really indica closed shape- even if satty and indi are nowadays quite approximated terms.

these tri&quad,i would assume, seems to stand exactly in the middle. i also guess that these trait are more difficult to fix in a hypotetical ibl line than other like scent, yeld, colours, flavour. Some says could also be due to a bacterium...

anyway, i'm with you when you say that everytime you are proceeding into doing something you must know what you want, and you must be able to recognize what takes you where you want to go from what brings you somewhere else but i refuse as well to believe that i could overlook the whole process without take advantage from what appears in front of me time by time.
it's my personal opinion, then, to believe that nature always overcome our possiblity or planes..


all the best GMT
have a good day
 
GMT

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Terms like bottlenecking were popular a decade ago, but in reality, it means nothing.
Forget cubing, forget fixing traits.
All we can ever do is improve the average by breeding from the best. Its eugenics, the same principle of breeding that mankind has used for hundreds of years. It takes time, because each generation takes a set amount of time. That's why those guys studying genetics study organisms with fast generational time spans.
 
B

BabTaHerbless

New member
eheh man... i'll maybe have to update my old vocabulary: seem things are moving faster than i realize.

thanks.you appear so patient to me that i wouldn't abuse of your time and i know i have no matches at all to state about this and that, so i'll keep myself quite far from arguing out 'bout breeding. but let me say something:
i recognize that since selfing has become a common breeding tool, all the hard work that involved respectable peoples 'round here have shows us like the right way to operate has been questionated.nowadays a elite, or just a good cut seems to be enough to play a role into canna world.then, even if i basically- basically- refuse to pop famale seeds i cannot deny that some true killer phenos sometimes appear. but that doesn't means that start crossing from preference could be considerated as a remarkable start. i keep on thinking that preserving means also saving traits.

anyway, my negligible, questionable opinion is that crossing two good genetics- what you call "best" and is nowadays also unavoidably tied to commercial issue- don't necessary bring you to a third better one.not ever.


about eugenics... well, i prefeer omit to discuss


all the best GMT
 
therevverend

therevverend

Well-known member
Veteran
Terms like bottlenecking were popular a decade ago, but in reality, it means nothing.
Click to expand...
I basically agree with you, breeding the best with the best is the way to go but genetic bottlenecking does happen and it's worth at least being aware of. Founder effect is one example, out of a landrace population of thousands you choose a few dozen plants for breeding. You'll lose a ton of genetic traits, for good and for bad. It's why you can't call a strain 'landrace' when your strain descended from one mother plant.

In selective breeding you are selecting for positive traits you're unknowingly selecting bad traits as well. That are just as amplified as the positive ones you want. It's how you get dogs that can't breathe properly or plants that get boytritis from a little moisture.

Another problem is the possibility of reproductive success drops off. Populations with low genetic variability have a hard time producing offspring. Lots of examples from the animal world but there's cannabis strains that produce very few males for example. I've had male plants that were sterile or females that had trouble producing mature seed. These problems get worse the more you inbreed a strain.

But like you're saying, most of us don't have to worry about these type of problems. We're not landrace preservationists or usually working with heavily inbred strains.

On the subject of Eugenics, it's not really the same as breeding plants or animals because those don't have rights. When you sterilize your pets there aren't people outside the vet protesting with signs. The proponents of eugenics have always belonged to political parties with a political agenda and they're not rational about what traits they're selecting for and why. Could we ever agree on what the perfect human looks like? Tits or ass?
 
xxPeacePipexx

xxPeacePipexx

Member
Sadly the world of "genetics" is heavily influenced by Eugenics by much more than just the etymological relationship.

Bottlenecked, a great human example would be the traditional Inuit people. They were probably the most sexually provoking of all of the Americas Indigenous to the missionaries, due to the ritualistic orgy to the adultery, that was well accepted. Accepted for the purpose of providing a small amount of genetic variation in a gene pool more restricted then with any other people unless you want to discuss the Amish and other religious sects with bottlenecked genetics.
 
B

BabTaHerbless

New member
Therevverend,PeacePipe,
'm glad and honoured to have you here.



therevverend said:
I basically agree with you, breeding the best with the best is the way to go but genetic bottlenecking does happen and it's worth at least being aware of. Founder effect is one example, out of a landrace population of thousands you choose a few dozen plants for breeding. You'll lose a ton of genetic traits, for good and for bad. It's why you can't call a strain 'landrace' when your strain descended from one mother plant.
Click to expand...


instead of it do prefeer the term heirloom,even if it's used to distinguish an acclimatation, since it bypass a lot of discussion but i do understand as well why people suggest landraces in order to signify something that has a true,clear and documentable relation to the place in which they have collected batches they want work with or just preserve.



therevverend said:
In selective breeding you are selecting for positive traits you're unknowingly selecting bad traits as well. That are just as amplified as the positive ones you want.
Click to expand...


yes reverend, the pictures here below shows a cross of sour bubble that share some heritage with the G13AMnesia Haze listed in the first post



afghan dog

IMG_20190728_214503.jpg

IMG_20190728_214557.jpg
seems something has going in a way i couldn't predict at that time


therevverend said:
Another problem is the possibility of reproductive success drops off. Populations with low genetic variability have a hard time producing offspring. Lots of examples from the animal world but there's cannabis strains that produce very few males for example. I've had male plants that were sterile or females that had trouble producing mature seed. These problems get worse the more you inbreed a strain.

But like you're saying, most of us don't have to worry about these type of problems. We're not landrace preservationists or usually working with heavily inbred strains.
Click to expand...


i would guess GMT was maybe just suggesting me to pay enogh attention to unexpected, undesirable results

GMT said:
When you engage in niche breeding, you drive genetic drift,
Click to expand...





xxPeacePipexx said:
They were probably the most sexually provoking of all of the Americas Indigenous to the missionaries, due to the ritualistic orgy to the adultery.
Click to expand...
LOL PeacePipe,
that remind me a tale taken from Hawthorne... nice one,anyway. i'v always loved inuit
 
GMT

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
We can replace the term bottlenecking with the term true breeding and list both desirable and undesirable traits.
 
C

cannabisjako

Member
GMT said:
When you engage in niche breeding, you drive genetic drift, not only towards your selected taste, but away from the background qualities. I'm not saying offspring from this or that is good or bad. Just that something's are irrelevant, so don't prioritise them. You may lose something you need.
Click to expand...


You got my vote for that.
 
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