Michael Caine:'What ruined the 60's was DRUGS!'

yesum said:

Pre 60's there was amphetamine freely prescribed along with barbiturates, tranquilizers. Not hard to get at all, super common with actors. Half the adults used tobacco and lots of booze.

Caine is a cool dude and all but not really buying his story. There were more types of drugs during and after the 60's, but lots before too.

Meredith Hunter pulled a gun before being stabbed. Jagger was punched by a concert goer. Lots of out of control people there, not just the Angels.

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Don't you dare defend the Hell's Angels! Meredith Hunter pulled a gun because the Hell's Angels harassed him all day for being a black man who dared to bring a white woman into their presence. They are nothing but sick rabid hyenas that should be put out of their misery. They will surely rot in hell.
And if you think "everybody riding Harleys today" justifies their hateful, murderous club, then you are just as fucked in the head as them, and you can rot in hell with them

On a different note, Michael Caine was great as the pothead dad in CHILDREN OF MEN. I usually pause the movie to smoke a bowl when his character comes on.

Biker gangs started from Army Aircorp. Pilots, gunners, bomber crews, they came back after fighting in Europe or Pacific and couldn't settle down. PTSD had them high strung for trouble.

The CIA started the sixties. They didn't mean to from what all I understand. They might of meant to to but that's something no one could ever control. It did create a hell of a cocaine and heroin market. Not much money in weed, compared to expensive drugs.

All in all things got worse. You can't have half your nation being an enemy. So now it's more 'clearly' divided than drug users, gays or races. Now it's belivers against non-believers, whichever the belief is.

I'd say the CIA was influencing the sixties for sure. They can't control everything, but they can sure find ways of taking advantage of the things they can't control.

moose eater said:

There were some meaningful gains, but not enough.

I think the 60s was a time where there was sufficient solidarity for causes, at least within the various movements, to the extent of there being at least some amount of self-discipline where boycotts, etc., could take place.

While immediate gratification and "me, me, me" are not new forces within our species to contend with, I think they displaced the 'mission' toward peace and reform that once had persons willing to sacrifice so much.

We still see some of those admirable qualities at times today, but I think far less per capita than once upon a time back then.

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As a veteran of those years I saw us as a great wave, a tsunami of a generation that would right all the wrongs and set society on a more humane and productive path. I was wrong, of course, but we did make some waves. And now I see the younger generation and I think they will make waves too.

I initially left home in'72, chuck. Moved into a Godspell-era Jesus commune in a very drug-oriented college town in NW Pa. I wasn't a believer, but they had offered me a bed, and two modest meals a day, as I attempted to finish my schooling, though pre-occupied with getting stoned and dropping acid..

No hell-fire or brimstone there; veterans who'd returned from S.E. Asia, ex-bikers, ex-hookers, speed freaks, recovering junkies, folks with physical disabilities, etc.

When I hit the road that year (before leaving home, but having discovered 'the magic of the thumb') I was sort of adopted on the on-ramps by lots of folks, many of them hippie folk, some resisters or deserters, others just wanderers.

And yes, there seemed a wave of unified direction. Not that it was truly regimented and narrow in view, as we were people, and variances in a group still existed even when there's a common set of goals.

I was moved when I was present at OWS, to see younger people (and many older folks) still willing to absorb a blow form a police baton in standing for what they knew to be right; 'speaking truth to power.'

But the unity, the vision, etc., that was there right into the mid-70s, I don't think that has ever come back in such strength as it did back then. The solidarity has been diluted. The dreams are still there, but sometimes it's like opening up an old photo album, and looking at things that are still too deep to describe.

oldchuck said:

As a veteran of those years I saw us as a great wave, a tsunami of a generation that would right all the wrongs and set society on a more humane and productive path. I was wrong, of course, but we did make some waves. And now I see the younger generation and I think they will make waves too.

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Jellyfish said:

Don't you dare defend the Hell's Angels! Meredith Hunter pulled a gun because the Hell's Angels harassed him all day for being a black man who dared to bring a white woman into their presence. They are nothing but sick rabid hyenas that should be put out of their misery. They will surely rot in hell.
And if you think "everybody riding Harleys today" justifies their hateful, murderous club, then you are just as fucked in the head as them, and you can rot in hell with them

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The Hell's Angels do give a lot to charity and the people they kill are usually criminals.

Also this Meridith Hunter had no right to pull a gun, we have freedom of speech in the USA. While I wouldn't harrass an interracial couple, some will and it's protected by our constitution. You can legally bear arms, but as soon as you pull your gun on me, you better kill me, because I'm going to kill you as I'm going to fear for my life.

You don't pull a gun and expect to be respected, you pull a gun when your life is in danger and are ready to use it. This Hunter fellow should have been the bigger man and walked away instead he pulled a gun over words and was rightfully killed....

Let's not forget about the hippies who actually ruined the 60's, the Manson family and Weather Underground (a communist terrorist group of drug dealing hippies). The Black Panthers were pretty bad as well it's hard to respect free men who want free shit and hate white people while demanding free shit from white people....

Yeah, the 60's where pretty shitty and very little had to do with the Hell's Angels. Nice to see American gangsters are tougher than foreign gangsters IMVHO.

Jellyfish said:

Don't you dare defend the Hell's Angels! Meredith Hunter pulled a gun because the Hell's Angels harassed him all day for being a black man who dared to bring a white woman into their presence. They are nothing but sick rabid hyenas that should be put out of their misery. They will surely rot in hell.
And if you think "everybody riding Harleys today" justifies their hateful, murderous club, then you are just as fucked in the head as them, and you can rot in hell with them

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Not to turn this into a biker thread, but I am a biker and have a lot of friends who are too. Some of them are 1% and some of them are not. However, all of them are some of the best and most compassionate people I know, who would defend their friends or brothers to death, as would I. I'm not one to speculate on the incident with Mr. Hunter, I wasn't there and most people who speak on it weren't either. But that event certainly didn't end the 60's and as for your condemnation of me, I hear hell is a pretty warm and it's fucking cold as fuck where I am currently.

People are people and they still are no matter what group or club or culture they belong to, we are violent as much as we are peaceful, to think otherwise is delusional. You can't have a positive without having a negative, it's an impossibility and I believe this is one of the things that lead to the death of 60's idealism, it wasn't realistic. I also believe this is something that severely effects this current 'millennial' generation. No one wants to have their feelings hurt, no one wants to be physically hurt, but the world isn't good or bad, it simply is. Good and bad are human constructs, not a natural thing. It is learned and conditioned behavior according to culture and upbringing. There are many people the world over who think us cannabis smokers should burn and rot in hell so I find your words hypocritical and believe you were probably beaten up by a biker for having a smart mouth at some point in your life. Stop harboring resentment and live the way you preach. If I met you I'd simply smoke a joint with you my man.

I was not at Altamont.

I've ridden motorcycles since I was 11 or 12 years old, and mini-bikes before that. I've crossed parts of Canada and the U.S. on Harleys, Hondas, & Yamahas, in reverse order of time/progression, starting at about age 16, though my last Electraglide was sold early in this new century. The future may or may not hold another; my spine and the Docs will have more to say about that.

I've known HA members, and had some in my home. I've known some who had short fuses, made snap decisions that lacked clarity or facts, and known others who were pretty level headed.

The group-think issue is dangerous no matter what, and no matter who. Whether it's a matter of nationalism and "My Country, right or wrong," or "My brother, right or wrong," such positions can lend themselves to persons eventually standing up for questionable decisions, actions or people.. I've seen bad outcomes from that, and so now avoid such groups, much of society, neighbors, etc., in great part for that reason.

But the INDIVIDUALS I've known, respected, and had a positive feeling about, their status as Angels (or other 1%ers) never affected the person-to-person exchange.

In general, I tend to avoid people with short fuses, who get bent out of shape without having sufficient facts, glory in unnecessary conflict, etc., whether they're wearing colors or not.

And that set of less appealing attributes can be found in way too many human beings... bikers, cabbies, cooks, Docs, therapists, politicians, school teachers and administrators, etc. Humanity in general..

I think idealism is good, overall; especially when it's mostly applied to ourselves.

Can't give any more rep, so just wanted to say very good point Moose. I've been known to have a short fuse myself, so I appreciate the maturity in your post. I try to learn while I grow as a man and I believe this site and it's constituents have assisted with that. I totally agree with the group thought point, regardless of intention it can lead to poor decisions, I sadly have experience with that.

Anyways, lets light one up and watch a Michael Caine movie. Harry Brown is one of my favorites of his recent work.

CaptainDankness said:

The Hell's Angels do give a lot to charity and the people they kill are usually criminals.

Also this Meridith Hunter had no right to pull a gun, we have freedom of speech in the USA. While I wouldn't harrass an interracial couple, some will and it's protected by our constitution. You can legally bear arms, but as soon as you pull your gun on me, you better kill me, because I'm going to kill you as I'm going to fear for my life.

You don't pull a gun and expect to be respected, you pull a gun when your life is in danger and are ready to use it. This Hunter fellow should have been the bigger man and walked away instead he pulled a gun over words and was rightfully killed....

Let's not forget about the hippies who actually ruined the 60's, the Manson family and Weather Underground (a communist terrorist group of drug dealing hippies). The Black Panthers were pretty bad as well it's hard to respect free men who want free shit and hate white people while demanding free shit from white people....

Yeah, the 60's where pretty shitty and very little had to do with the Hell's Angels. Nice to see American gangsters are tougher than foreign gangsters IMVHO.

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Hells Angels good. Black Panthers bad. Hunter had it coming. Free shit from white people. Seems to be a theme here...Just saying.
HA's were a bunch of selfish pigs while the Panthers gave back to their communities. They scared white people. Big deal. The HAs were pushing the speed. It was about the money and the power.
Cocaine, heroin, and speed destroyed the peace movement. The Hells Angels were a very big part of the attack.
Get over your bromance.

I just want to make clear that I'm not trashing bikers or people who ride motorcycles. Just the Hell's Angels. Their name says it all.

h.h. said:

Hells Angels good. Black Panthers bad. Hunter had it coming. Free shit from white people. Seems to be a theme here...Just saying.
HA's were a bunch of selfish pigs while the Panthers gave back to their communities. They scared white people. Big deal. The HAs were pushing the speed. It was about the money and the power.
Cocaine, heroin, and speed destroyed the peace movement. The Hells Angels were a very big part of the attack.
Get over your bromance.

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Well Hunter supposedly pulled a gun, so yes he had it coming. The Hells Angels started as a group of US military veterans I'd expect them to not piss their pants over a man pulling a gun on them.

Black Panthers well they did beat and murder plenty of innocent white people, basically neo Nazis only black supremacists. Lol

Heroin was big back in the 20's-30's not much to do with the HA, they also weren't that big with the cocaine market which is why we heard so much about biker meth. Also during the worst of the drug war days they were growing and selling plenty of marijuana to this day. They definitely have a little slice of pie out of the Mexican cartels, who I believe are much worse people, who push a lot more hard drugs. I hardly ever see Mexican weed, but I always hear about the cartel wars they ain't bringing in weed...

Of course the HA do have a few bad apples but for the most part they ain't bad people. I've met HA and Outlaws (thankfully not in the same place, LMAO) they seemed like normal people to me. Of course, normal people don't really exist, everyone is different.

I do respect 1% gangs the way I see it they're freedom fighters. The War On Drugs should not exist in a free nation, many hippies will agree I'm sure. Junkies should be able to buy heroin just like whiskey, alcohol is a dangerous and addictive drug just like heroin. Only alcohol I go to the liquor store it says 101 proof 1.75l well I know I shouldn't drink too much. Problem with heroin is, it's laced with fentanyl and shit nobody knows how strong it is.

I'm so glad ICMAG has an ignore list. Very helpful.

The Panthers in many ways followed Malcolm's directive; relying on White systems to bring Black communities up and protect them was not working. They needed to do for themselves. They needed to police themselves, etc.

The Panthers were involved in setting up school lunch AND EARLY MORNING breakfast programs for kids who lacked resources in their areas. They formed their own policing patrols to protect their own communities. When the urban non-Black police forces came in, it often meant a Black man or woman might get shot or beaten, sometimes with little or no provocation.

It was that independence and separatist view that scared the mainstream power gropers, as much as the black jackets, berets, and self-protection bit scared middle White America.

I know of no documented cases where Panthers killed anyone for the sake of their skin color. They merely took an out-front stand, and were feared and loathed for it, in similar but different fashion as legalizers not too many years ago were viewed by the System as a threat to the status quo, though as White activists we had somewhat more predictable protections. Sometimes not much more, but some.

Read the real history on the Chicago P.D.'s murder of Fred Hampton and Co. In that, you can get a good handle on how force and power was used. And the FBI, the same agency that promises to protect our American way of life today, helped to white-wash what they did to Hampton.

Read 'Soul on Ice.' Another view that needs more circulation. I have it next to Daniel Berrigan's "Prison Poems,' above my computer, collecting dust.

I served 8.5 months in a minimum security campus for incorrigibility, as a young radical, for the first time in my life with inner-city kids who were gang-banging long before there was any money at all in gangs. A good friend, who I helped train for inter-institutional boxing, and was 3 years older than I was, George F., was from inner-city Philly.. When the Philly cops were far more corrupt than they are now. I'll end there. I've looked for George, and if I had to wager, I would wager large that he's dead, and died violently. But I knew him first as a man with a history that frightened me. Later as a brother, and a friend, whose time at that safer campus was hijacked and ended by folks with irrational fears. George's story needs told, just as Fred Hampton's story needs told more, but I'll end here, as that would take more room than my typical extensive posts.

In my opinion, Malcolm was a GREAT man, and I say that about few separatists, no matter the color of their skin. Read about COINTELPRO to see one angle on Malcolm's untimely end.

Find a recent article not specifically related to the Panthers, entitled, "The FBI is Not Your Friend."

I was standing outside a bank in the ghetto in Grand Rapids Michigan, probably circa 1976, in run-down area near the train tracks, waiting for the bank to open up to cash a check for me. An old Black man there I was talking with, and whom I'd asked about 'his story,' quoted Malcolm to me there that morning. "In the South, they hate us as a race, but love us as individuals. In the north, they love us as a race, and hate us as individuals."

Racism robbed many of us of our innocence in those days; fear brought to us by our ignorant parents or the System. Being trained or conditioned to fear, thus dislike or hate/resent, is a method, intended or not, of taking away others' opportunity to experience the world without so many pre-conceived barriers like those listed.

It was that later-realized resentment that had me taking such militant stances against racists, and took me even longer to forgive some of them for their ignorance and human frailty, let alone looking past their own conditioning, and seeing them as People too..

I still battle my own reactions, off and on forgiveness, and anger in that realm and others.

We're a fickle lot, us humans.

'"There must be some kinda' way out of here," said the joker to the thief.
There's too much confusion here, I can't get no relief.' (Bob Dylan)

To the dreamers and visionaries who defy the constructs of 'Animal Farm,' and 'Lord of the Flies.' Without them, we'd be more fucked than we already are.

Maybe one day we'll get there, evaporate into Nirvana as gaseous clouds of fulfillment.

"Father forgive us for what we must do. You forgive us, and we'll forgive you. We'll forgive each other 'til we both turn blue, then we'll whistle and go fishin' in Heaven." (Johnny Prine)

Chores call!!

And God won't take the time to sort your ashes from mine.

To be honest I love the direction this thread took because it reveals that there is a perceived dark and light side to all coins here (races, sub cultures. counter cultures, etc. all)

It is one of those esoteric constants that once realized can open doors to greater understandings such as we call out the dark and light in those around us by the way we behave

does this condone the horrific things any human has done to another? no but until everyone takes ownership of the choices we make in expressing those sides in our selves and others it is going to be a shit show of tremendous proportions

Personally I can't take a shit show without drugs and thankfully there are less toxic choices

:: smokes a joint and listens to some hippy tunes

fwiw the drugs that opened minds didn't prepare us for what they where going to be opened to aka unbridled desires or the causation that happens when fulfilling them

a whole pandora's box of enlightenment comes with that trip too but far from impossible to unravel but certainly not easy

faith is the seed, wisdom the fruit

I was told the disease we are suffering can take generations to heal but i am more hopeful and understand the dynamics if anyone cares to understand it

Jellyfish said:

I just want to make clear that I'm not trashing bikers or people who ride motorcycles. Just the Hell's Angels. Their name says it all.

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I just never wanted to belong to a group of other guys. Seems like they're just denying their sexual identities.
Now if it were a group of women, sign me up.