Which Led ?

CLOWD11 said:

Dont let the model names confuse you rives, BS clearly state what each model draw in wattage. Using less power than what the 3w chips are rated at while maximising output strenght is actually a lot better long term for the led diode lifespan compared to lumigrow that seem to overvolt their diodes resulting in added heat and short lived diodes. The lumigrow might work with the next model if ever they include a 730nm far red and at least some white light, but until then may all your additive light purchases be merry.

Sadly a well built light does not constitute a good spectrum. To buy a very expensive light only to need to add other lights is a bit of a joke really.

My 126W only draw 110w and my pro version only draw 170w, thats enough wattage to drive a well designed spectrum, more wattage need not equate to a "better light" when the spectrum is dodgey.

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I think the misleading model names is a great example of the odious marketing practices most of the snake oil companies utilize. If an auto manufacturer called their model "426 Hemi" and it really had a 273 slant-six in it, would you defend their marketing as delivering better gas mileage? It's the same thing with the so-called equivalence to HID lamps. One of the biggest reasons that people are disappointed in LED's is the overstating of how much more efficient they are than HID's. Yes, they are more efficient, but it is no where near the 200+% that some of these companies are claiming.

I know all about running electronics at less than the rated current levels and its associated benefits. However, this is due to one thing - heat. If the heat can be removed successfully from an IC, it can be driven at levels that would destroy it instantly if the heat transfer was less effective. Lumigrow has a 5 year warranty vs the new "extended" 3 year warranty offered by HGL, and I have never heard of anyone needing to get their Lumi repaired. On the other hand, most of the journals I have read about HGL fixtures relate either an out-of-box failure or a subsequent one after usage. Of course, then there is the problem of trying to get Cammie to stand behind her warranty without reporting the user to local police.

As far as the spectrum is concerned, my preference is to hit the known chlorophyll peaks with the tightly focused spectrum that the leds can provide, and round it out with auxiliary lighting. No one at this point knows what the ideal spectrum is - two years ago Cammie was stating that green had absolutely nothing to add to the spectrum for growing plants. Now she is peddling fixtures that have 15% green. A year ago she was throwing rocks at anyone using three watt diodes. Guess what she is using now? My intention when I first started chasing this technology was to build 660 nm light bars which would then be alternated with PL-L lamps. I still think that this is possibly the best combination for a scrog, but at the time health problems interfered with me getting the fixture built and I discovered the Lumigrow. It hit the spectrum that I was after, was incredibly well built, made in the U.S., and even when compared to building your own fixture with quality components, it was competitively priced.

I'm glad that you are happy with your HGL products. The more people having positive experiences with LED's, the faster this technology is going to develop. For me personally, however, it is as I stated in one of the HGL threads when they were still active on here. I have learned enough about HGL's business practices that I would refuse to purchase their product if they were the only supplier of this technology and their product was golden. I'd rather use candles than contribute one cent to their profit margin.

*edit* I forgot to mention that the Lumigrows do actually include "some white light". There are 8 white led's (14%) on the the ES330.

Thanks for the neg rep stak. lol

@ rives and anybody else who might know:

I have access to a good supply of led stripes of all colors. And, I just found out about it last week. I spent many hours searching on the best spectra of light to put in my grow room, but I can't find any concrete information :/ Anyway, my 2 plants are 1,5 months old, topped 2 times, under metal HID light. Last week, I put a blue LED stripe around them and it seems the plant is responding positively: the lower leaves bent downward to absorb the blue light.

The thing is, some information on the internet suggests blue color for veg, and red(~630nm) for flowering. I don't get why all the ready-made LED systems, like UFO or ledhydrogrow etc, come with fixed ratios on colors. Shouldn't there be a veg/flowering switch or something?

I really need to put all those LED stripes I have in stock in use and get rid of the HID! I already bought a spectrum analyzer/meter to help me achieve the right spectrum, or balance of, but I have to know what I'm after!

I know LED is relatively new stuff, so any knowledge you share is very appreciated.
Thank you

Eschatos said:

I don't get why all the ready-made LED systems, like UFO or ledhydrogrow etc, come with fixed ratios on colors. Shouldn't there be a veg/flowering switch or something?

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Lumigrow has dials for red/blue tweaking. You might ask SOTF420 if he makes use of them. Tim in Marin's comparison grow (journal) left them full on and results were good.
Edit: you'll not be able to PM until you have 50 posts--I'll ask SOTF420 because I'd also like to know.

If I were to buy a led it would be Lumigrow, no question. Though I will stick with my 600w Mh and my 600w hps with my magnum xxxl hood. Once I can get led that will compare in quality and properly light up my 4x4 space for around $800 then I might take the plunge.

LeeROI said:

Lumigrow has dials for red/blue tweaking. You might ask SOTF420 if he makes use of them. Tim in Marin's comparison grow (journal) left them full on and results were good.
Edit: you'll not be able to PM until you have 50 posts--I'll ask SOTF420 because I'd also like to know.

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Thank you Maybe I will just keep the HID on for now, and study a bit more on LED for the new season It's just a damn shame that I have em for free here and I don't use them.

re lumigrow: i keep both dials turned up all the way, this is in a flower cabinet, i don't recall ever seeing someone make mention of running it with either dial dialed down myself...

Lumigrow spectrum - on this last run, I vegged with the red turned down to about 75% and the blue all the way up. Then when I went to 12/12, I ran them both all the way up and it seemed to work fine. Vegging in this manner will give you one dense plant - they are stacked very, very tight.

smokefrogg said:

re lumigrow: i keep both dials turned up all the way, this is in a flower cabinet, i don't recall ever seeing someone make mention of running it with either dial dialed down myself...

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I was wondering about that light. How many hours is that thing rated to run for? Do they mention the life of that thing when both knobs are all the way up all the time? Do they mention the test method at all for that?

Try buying a LED Light which consumes the power it is rated to run with. I'm so fed up with companies telling me the Light has more power than it draws from the socket. I once bought one which claimed 155W and draw 120W, when asked they tell you thats normal.

Have to agree with sm0k4, they all either don't have a clue what they are talking about or they are just messing with you. Decide yourself from whom you'd rather buy and then DIY!

sm0k4 said:

The proof is always in the pudding. I bet it won't last 5 years of use

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Thats a bold statement. You must know what type of heatsink is used, the fans cfm rating and the ambient temps the units are operated in at least to form an opinion of life span, otherwise your guessing at best.

alkalien said:

Try buying a LED Light which consumes the power it is rated to run with

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There are plenty around.
If you take an extra 3 seconds before giving someone your credit card number, you can actually find in the specs how much wattage they consume.
What your complaining about is how some use the total of diodes X the rated wattage of diodes. Like written above many dont run their diodes at full power, thus the difference.

CLOWD11 said:

...If you take an extra 3 seconds before giving someone your credit card number, you can actually find in the specs how much wattage they consume.
What your complaining about is how some use the total of diodes X the rated wattage of diodes. Like written above many dont run their diodes at full power, thus the difference.

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what does knowing the wattage tell you?

practically nothing.

This isn't an HPS bulb that you know 400 watt = 400 watt HPS performance. With LED its like 400 watt = ? (where ? indicates a wide range of performance)

We aren't buying these things to generate heat or consume power, the goal is to emit light.

How much light do these 3 watt leds emit? Less light than many 1 watt emitters? Is this a 1 watt emmitter running at 700mA, making excess heat and lowering the lifespan?

We got to ask these questions to know what we're getting.

CLOWD11 said:

Thats a bold statement. You must know what type of heatsink is used, the fans cfm rating and the ambient temps the units are operated in at least to form an opinion of life span, otherwise your guessing at best.




There are plenty around.
If you take an extra 3 seconds before giving someone your credit card number, you can actually find in the specs how much wattage they consume.
What your complaining about is how some use the total of diodes X the rated wattage of diodes. Like written above many dont run their diodes at full power, thus the difference.

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Actually you can't tell how much power they consume until you buy the light and run your own tests. They don't tell you the operating current, bin of LED, or voltage they are run at. They tell you their 345W light uses 290W of power. So its actually a 290W light. Thats the only info they give. They don't even tell the brand of LEDs they use.

They also have the LEDs grouped in bunches which tells me they have small square heat sinks inside or they aren't spreading them out evenly enough. They mount 5 fans mounted on these lights to cool them. That tells me they went cheap on heat sink material. Maybe because Aluminum isn't that cheap anymore.

I will never know the construction of the light because I don't want to waste my money. They have no white LEDs either. I think white would provide a balanced spectrum in the PAR range when mixing red and blue.

They claim their 345W light is 345W but then the actual power draw is 290W, so they do under-drive their LEDs. They do not list the light as a 290W light though.

Their patents pending page is a joke too, just a bunch of words to make them sound legit. If you know anything about patents, they could be "pending" forever, and in this case probably will be. You can't patent putting a 60 degree lens on an LED, sorry. They don't make the lens, they buy it and attach it to the LED. Such a joke these scam sites. You are wasting your money paying that much.

I'm not doubting the lights will work, I'm sure they will grow a plant, but I would never buy one. They don't tell you everything there is to know and just spew nonsense that sounds good to the unknowing. They claim to use the best 1W emitters so they must use Cree right? Cree XPE has the best output in the 1W class for 625nm and 450nm. The Cree XML is the best 1W white emitter also which they should be using since they claim using the BEST 1W emitters. My guess is they don't use Cree, but I could be wrong. They show pics of gull wing emitters, not the Cree SMD chips.

OGmolton said:

How much light do these 3 watt leds emit? Less light than many 1 watt emitters? Is this a 1 watt emmitter running at 700mA, making excess heat and lowering the lifespan?

We got to ask these questions to know what we're getting.

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All I can say is I haven't found any 3W emitters worth buying since the output isn't any better than the Cree 1W chips. 3W leds are usually three 1W chips on one die. Way less efficient than one single chip, so most 3W can't produce more light than a 1W Cree. They produce a little more, but then you get all the extra heat due to the more inefficient LED. Seoul comes close, but I'd still take the Cree due to efficiency. Osram GD+ are very nice emitters also, with an industry leading 660nm hyper red in the 1W package.

The only thing you gain with 3W emitters is a bit of penetration. You can achieve the same thing by adding 60 or 90 degree lenses to your LEDs.

CLOWD11 said:

In other words, fill in the missing spectrum yourself or your grow sucks.

Peddling now is it? Someone is prepared to change their mind due to R&D and make better lights and you accuse them of having some kind of perverted product that its considered peddling to sell? ffs

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Once again, as far as the spectrum goes, to me it is far simpler to experiment with supplemental light and a fixture that you know hits the bands that have been proven to be necessary. Your demand for a full spectrum fixture is amusing - do you use the same nutrients (only one allowed, of course) at the same strengths all the way through your run, regardless of the variety you are growing? Even sunlight is different from spring to fall. At this point, the need for anything outside of 440nm and 660nm is anecdotal. I've little doubt that it helps, it is just a matter of what, how much, when, etc. This relates well to your second point above. Someone changing their mind after further experience is great - the problem that I have is when this follows a history of making absolute proclamations that other company's are on the wrong path with their approach, then quietly changing over to that "wrong" approach and eventually acting like the idea originated with them. Memories are short, there is a huge turnover of interested parties on the internet, and some companies take advantage of this. It's kind of like the patent medicine purveyors of the last century - make wild claims, make your sales and get the hell out of town, then come back in a year or two and pluck the new victims.

LeeROI said:

Lumigrow has dials for red/blue tweaking. You might ask SOTF420 if he makes use of them. Tim in Marin's comparison grow (journal) left them full on and results were good.
Edit: you'll not be able to PM until you have 50 posts--I'll ask SOTF420 because I'd also like to know.

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"Yeah I use them, cranked all the way up the whole way

If you are growing seedlings under one turn them down to like 7 and make sure it's at least 18" above them or the high intensity will stunt them. Also in flower don't get closer than about 12" or you can bleach tops, other than that make sure you have some 740 nm spectrum (far red) in early flower so response is no delayed. I use 6500k HO T5's around garden perimeter for this but there are other sources and Lumigrow makes some LED's now on the website that are 740 nm. You don't really need the 740 nm in veg.

SOTF"

Thanks for the info, SOTF!

You guys are making this hard for me!!! Spectra is looking like the winner, but I don't know if it's gonna be a 500 on my new mover or 2 180's at this point. This shit will drive a man to drinking!!
The reason being spectra, my friend muddy on here got their 180 and pulled close an lb off of 5 of the same plants I grow. That's not bad for autos!!

I think the Spectra's look very promising. IrishBoy has done some phenomenal grows with them. My vote would be to go for the two fixtures over the single. I think that the "sweet spot" would be much larger with two fixtures rather than a single, more powerful one.

binning the leds is Very important. and it is shady that they don't mention that. That correlates with frequency etc and is such very important when trying to grow within certain spectrums