Which Led ?

sx646522 said:

It's always amusing to see what ends up on some of these 'manufacturer's web sites. I know for a fact that some of the stuff that I (and a few other folks here and on other forums) contributed - both in discussion, and with data points in chart and graph form regarding spectrum, optimal angles/intensity, and the like - have ended up as 'independent scientific research' cited on several sales sites - like HGL's - and began to be incorporated into the next versions/models released by quite a few folks.

Well, can't claim these guys aren't exactly 'keeping their ears to the ground'...


By the way, the only real reason a manufacturer would use 3w/3 chip LEDs over 1w (if they're 'manufacturing smart') is cost. When you're charging by the watt (and can get away with using fewer emitters), you'll get higher overall margins.

Having lived over in Asia for several years and worked with Chinese and SEA companies on a regular basis, I can tell you the manufacturers are way more interested in finding as many ways as possible to squeeze as much cost out of the production of a panel (while keeping prices the same), rather than using higher quality components or improving the product. Good luck trying to get one of the Shenzhen assemblers to customize these units to actually put in reliable components (unless you can deliver massive volume - and even then, the concept will be foreign to them)

A 3w LED is NOT better than 3 x 1w (separate emitters), and not necessarily even ONE 1w high-bin emitter by any means - for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is related to poor thermal management issues. The only true indicator of quality and efficacy is in the total lumens of the emitter (per watt, usually), not simply the watts it's wasting to generate that amount of light.

On top of that, many use cheap, inefficient drivers. Many panels struggle to achieve even 75-80% efficiency (80% is being kind here, esp. for some of the stuff you find on eBay) with the drivers they're using (power lost as heat before it even gets to the emitters), while the better ones will consistently do 90%+ (~91-92% realistically, if using variable AC-DC conversion) when driving a proper load. Thus:

(White LED example)

Chinese panel: 0.80 x 0.20 = 16% efficiency
DIY/High Quality: 0.90 x 0.5 = 45% efficiency (281% difference!)


(Typical low-bin, low-quality emitter efficiency range: 20-30%, but 15% is not uncommon at the lower end)
(High-bin, high-quality emitter efficiency range: 40-50%+)


=> Is it any wonder why people get frustrated by some of their results?


...I'll leave thermal management out of this discussion; I've written about it ad nauseam before anyway.



That has got to be the worst piece of shit heatsink I've ever seen! (Ok, I've seen worse, but not much. Besides, it's funnier the way I wrote it). No wonder they need to use six fans.

That's hilarious. I see they haven't improved their thermal management at all in the 1 1/2 years since the last peek under the hood...

(and very, very, typical)

...and people wonder why the 'industry' has garnered a bad reputation. I wouldn't wish those anemic-ass heatsinks on my worst enemy. (of which I have none, naturally...)



Don't know if you noticed, but that is a thinly disguised affiliate site with fake 'reviews' of products designed to get you to follow their links to the manufacturer page in the hopes of generating sales commission $$$ for the feeder site owner. Just your standard pre-sales page, keyword-rich jargon before sending you to the actual 'money' sites.

The guy even mentions getting a 'pre-release' copy of one of the HGL units - before they've even done a single production run. Sounds like bullshit to me.

(See the 'pre-order' pages for the new units on HGL's page, folks? That's so they can get paid for the production from advance sales before committing to making the actual product. Pretty smart, actually - but don't expect them to have given anything out early beforehand. Not THIS company - not by a long shot.)

Wouldn't surprise me to learn that most of the 'feedback' at the bottom of his posts are faked, too...

I would discount pretty much anything said on that site as being on the order of either partial or complete sales BS. Don't be confused by 'marketing'.

Just sayin'.

-SX


P.S. There's only one manufacturer I trust to produce a truly decent (i.e. energy efficient) product right now (using ACTUAL high-bin CREE's et.al.) - and as far as I can tell, no one here is using them (yet).

(And no, they're not cheap. Hint: they're assembled in Spain. )

Even the Lumigrows, while built solidly, are not that efficient when it comes to the watt-vs-light levels. I don't see that they've necessarily updated the actual emitters since the (ES) unit was introduced.

At this point, with the current advances in technology: if you're having to use more than 20-25w/sq ft of LEDs to get decent results, you've got a crappy unit (or rather, a unit using crappy LEDs - and possibly overdriven to compensate, reducing efficiency even further) - PERIOD.

P.P.S. As knna and I (among others) have discussed before on more than one occasion, plants utilize several wavelengths (outside of just blue/red) in a cascading electron transport chain, including yellow/green, and any light that doesn't include at least ~10-15%+ of their output in a broader range is like having a car running with two of its cylinders down.

For those interested, here's the original link to some of the scientific journals for reference (yes, these are now links on HGLs website, too, I believe - Hi, Cameron! ):


(Having only 'green' LEDs for that purpose is taking a rather large step backward.)

(Don't forget about the Emerson Effect, too... or the steady-state between Pr <--> Pfr and the effect Phytochrome has in germination rates, short-day night cycle regeneration (flowering), stretching, and many other things. The world is not just 'black and white' as far as plants are concerned)

Click to expand...

I agree with all of this; not one led on the market that will produce more than a gram a watt ... thus almost on par with HID

HGL seems all scam .. bahh hydro girl lol

one question though
Cree doesn't make a 660nm red for there xp-e
http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xpe.asp

so what does the one from Spain use ... ?

sx646522 said:

It's always amusing to see what ends up on some of these 'manufacturer's web sites. I know for a fact that some of the stuff that I (and a few other folks here and on other forums) contributed - both in discussion, and with data points in chart and graph form regarding spectrum, optimal angles/intensity, and the like - have ended up as 'independent scientific research' cited on several sales sites - like HGL's - and began to be incorporated into the next versions/models released by quite a few folks.

Well, can't claim these guys aren't exactly 'keeping their ears to the ground'...


By the way, the only real reason a manufacturer would use 3w/3 chip LEDs over 1w (if they're 'manufacturing smart') is cost. When you're charging by the watt (and can get away with using fewer emitters), you'll get higher overall margins.

Having lived over in Asia for several years and worked with Chinese and SEA companies on a regular basis, I can tell you the manufacturers are way more interested in finding as many ways as possible to squeeze as much cost out of the production of a panel (while keeping prices the same), rather than using higher quality components or improving the product. Good luck trying to get one of the Shenzhen assemblers to customize these units to actually put in reliable components (unless you can deliver massive volume - and even then, the concept will be foreign to them)

A 3w LED is NOT better than 3 x 1w (separate emitters), and not necessarily even ONE 1w high-bin emitter by any means - for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is related to poor thermal management issues. The only true indicator of quality and efficacy is in the total lumens of the emitter (per watt, usually), not simply the watts it's wasting to generate that amount of light.

On top of that, many use cheap, inefficient drivers. Many panels struggle to achieve even 75-80% efficiency (80% is being kind here, esp. for some of the stuff you find on eBay) with the drivers they're using (power lost as heat before it even gets to the emitters), while the better ones will consistently do 90%+ (~91-92% realistically, if using variable AC-DC conversion) when driving a proper load. Thus:

(White LED example)

Chinese panel: 0.80 x 0.20 = 16% efficiency
DIY/High Quality: 0.90 x 0.5 = 45% efficiency (281% difference!)


(Typical low-bin, low-quality emitter efficiency range: 20-30%, but 15% is not uncommon at the lower end)
(High-bin, high-quality emitter efficiency range: 40-50%+)


=> Is it any wonder why people get frustrated by some of their results?


...I'll leave thermal management out of this discussion; I've written about it ad nauseam before anyway.



That has got to be the worst piece of shit heatsink I've ever seen! (Ok, I've seen worse, but not much. Besides, it's funnier the way I wrote it). No wonder they need to use six fans.

That's hilarious. I see they haven't improved their thermal management at all in the 1 1/2 years since the last peek under the hood...

(and very, very, typical)

...and people wonder why the 'industry' has garnered a bad reputation. I wouldn't wish those anemic-ass heatsinks on my worst enemy. (of which I have none, naturally...)



Don't know if you noticed, but that is a thinly disguised affiliate site with fake 'reviews' of products designed to get you to follow their links to the manufacturer page in the hopes of generating sales commission $$$ for the feeder site owner. Just your standard pre-sales page, keyword-rich jargon before sending you to the actual 'money' sites.

The guy even mentions getting a 'pre-release' copy of one of the HGL units - before they've even done a single production run. Sounds like bullshit to me.

(See the 'pre-order' pages for the new units on HGL's page, folks? That's so they can get paid for the production from advance sales before committing to making the actual product. Pretty smart, actually - but don't expect them to have given anything out early beforehand. Not THIS company - not by a long shot.)

Wouldn't surprise me to learn that most of the 'feedback' at the bottom of his posts are faked, too...

I would discount pretty much anything said on that site as being on the order of either partial or complete sales BS. Don't be confused by 'marketing'.

Just sayin'.

-SX


P.S. There's only one manufacturer I trust to produce a truly decent (i.e. energy efficient) product right now (using ACTUAL high-bin CREE's et.al.) - and as far as I can tell, no one here is using them (yet).

(And no, they're not cheap. Hint: they're assembled in Spain. )

Even the Lumigrows, while built solidly, are not that efficient when it comes to the watt-vs-light levels. I don't see that they've necessarily updated the actual emitters since the (ES) unit was introduced.

At this point, with the current advances in technology: if you're having to use more than 20-25w/sq ft of LEDs to get decent results, you've got a crappy unit (or rather, a unit using crappy LEDs - and possibly overdriven to compensate, reducing efficiency even further) - PERIOD.

P.P.S. As knna and I (among others) have discussed before on more than one occasion, plants utilize several wavelengths (outside of just blue/red) in a cascading electron transport chain, including yellow/green, and any light that doesn't include at least ~10-15%+ of their output in a broader range is like having a car running with two of its cylinders down.

For those interested, here's the original link to some of the scientific journals for reference (yes, these are now links on HGLs website, too, I believe - Hi, Cameron! ):


(Having only 'green' LEDs for that purpose is taking a rather large step backward.)

(Don't forget about the Emerson Effect, too... or the steady-state between Pr <--> Pfr and the effect Phytochrome has in germination rates, short-day night cycle regeneration (flowering), stretching, and many other things. The world is not just 'black and white' as far as plants are concerned)

Click to expand...

HGL lights work excellent for me so it leaves me interested why you are such a negative knowall. Do you own HGL lights or just a internet hero splurging your rubbish opinions?
I know 2 others through PM as well as myself who have left feedback that was relayed word for word. Seems your lies dont really rely on any evidence what so-ever. The heatsink has changed and is now on the 3rd design, but you keep believing your trash about never been upgraded. Also there were prototype X lens models released which are the forerunner for the current X series that starts shipping mid august, so again your knowall splurge is wrong.
Again your assertion that HGL is taking pre orders before committing to production is complete fucking rubbish and you dont have a clue wtf your talking about.
I have seen the casing production run that was finished recently and the heatsinks and lenses are near finished with the hangers being the last part of the production process to be finalised in about 2 weeks. So your opinion (lies) are not needed thanks.
Actually reading most of your above post, its all fucking rubbish. Every point you bring up is rubbish, even the "thinly vailed" website that leads to the "money" site... wtf are you on?
Im very happy with my lights and the grows they produce, and im ordering more. The new lights will be a great improvement of an already great light. I cant wait to see your expert opinion on the new models relying on nothing more than concocted BS.

The sad thing ist, this discussion will be here until we get to know which LEDs in what binning those blackbox producers use.

Judging from the prices of the the top bin best of the class emitters, they aren't used in any commercial unit. But I can't say for sure, all I can say for sure is, that the design of all those made in china lamps is similar to identic, which does tell the whole story.

BTW: Haven't heard from the spanish guy for more than a year, kinda miss him. Would be great to hear he is ok!

CLOWD11 said:

why you are such a negative knowall. Do you own HGL lights or just a internet hero splurging your rubbish opinions?
Seems your lies dont really rely on any evidence what so-ever. you keep believing your trash about never been upgraded. your knowall splurge is wrong.
Again your assertion that HGL is taking pre orders before committing to production is complete fucking rubbish and you dont have a clue wtf your talking about.
So your opinion (lies) are not needed thanks.
Actually reading most of your above post, its all fucking rubbish. Every point you bring up is rubbish, even the "thinly vailed" website that leads to the "money" site... wtf are you on?
I cant wait to see your expert opinion on the new models relying on nothing more than concocted BS.

Click to expand...

Ah, Clowd, it is always so pleasant to read your knowledgeable, well-presented posts. Let's see - a post that isn't favorable to HGL, so it is obviously time for you to launch a bunch of foul-mouthed rhetoric and personal attacks. After all, it has worked so well in the past to get the posts binned.

LetsSeeYa said:

Thanks sx, i was just looking around and thought id found some good reading, but i had no idea that a company would go to that extent to pull business. I really like my lights and i really dont care who says there not any good. My grows are good for where im at as iv grown alway outside. So growing inside in a tent with no ventilation with my two 150 w LED grow bars. I just need to work on my growing methods, but started a thread below if you want to see what iv done so far. I think i need to get my lights closer, but il figure that out when i flip next week.

Thanks again sx

LSY

Click to expand...

NP, LSY. Never hurts to have a second pair of eyes with a different perspective. A few of us here (like good ol' Weez) try to remain non-partisan and consumer advocates for the rest (tempered by experience). I'm familiar with some of the tactics used in the industry, so I know what to look for. The 'better' ones use half-truths and occasionally some good info in with whatever they're promoting in order to sound more legitimate. But ultimately, it just serves to support their agenda, not unbiased, pro-consumer advice. An unfortunate side effect any time someone dangles $$$ in front of another person's face (think politicians, lobbyists, the FDA and EPA, you name it).

Looks like some of the LED manufacturers there have affiliate programs through some of the private networks (not on-site), and a few set their tracking cookie and then scrub the URL (using redirects) to remove the 'affid=' from the end, but you'll see it on the end of some of the others.

---

I'm familiar with the Welthink units from stra8outtaWeed's journal and a few others; he gets pretty decent results. The real test is whether you're happy with 'em or not. I just know (and I think stra8outtaWeed had plans to intersperse them with HPS also to fill out a few nm ranges) that a little side-spectrum lighting wouldn't hurt, either... (My first degree was in biology and I've spent more than two decades growing. Any questions, just ask).

Anything you can grow yourself and not have to get from a dispensary or dealer, though, is just nice.

Took a look at some of your earlier stuff; nice work! Thanks for the links.

FreedomGrower said:

I agree with all of this; not one led on the market that will produce more than a gram a watt ... thus almost on par with HID

HGL seems all scam .. bahh hydro girl lol

Click to expand...

Hehe...thanks FG. Some of us who've been around more than a few weeks know the history behind that woe-man. And thus we would never, ever, ever buy from them - no matter how well the product actually worked, or not. Notice the Better Business Bureau currently has them with an 'F' (failed) ranking...

(This is the same individual who ran that scam auto-parts supply business a few years back (sending out either 1) low-quality versions of whatever part it was supposed to be - or 2) not shipping anything entirely, and simply taking their money and running) and had to go into hiding after all the consumer backlash. So s(he) reinvented (it?)self as a - LED vendor! Oh, joy!)

Yep, these are semiconductors after all, and follow the rest of the chip industry: there's a low, mid, and high-end market. Right now, we're in what is closest to the late early-adoption period with LED lighting as a whole. It will be a few years yet before commoditization becomes more widespread, though there will always be a sub-segment for those willing to pay for quality, and the newest, most-efficient lamps.

In another 5-6 years, though, we'll see the lamp efficiency growth rate (% improvement over time) level off due to purely physical limitations of the technology (regardless of R&D), and Haitz's law will start to converge with the efficiency curve. That's around when we can expect to see a more marked reduction in unit pricing, at least in the low and mid-end.

Horticultural lighting is, like boating and many other verticals, a niche industry. Some things are simply going to be priced higher due to market forces, rather than economic costs-of-production. We don't exactly see folks like Advanced Nutrients passing on their savings to the end customer, after all...even if it takes pennies to produce, and one can get perfectly good results with plain ol' Scott's Osmocote + and a Hempy Bucket.

Plus, any drop shipper (with a few exceptions) is going to look for at least 40-50% gross margins (while they can get 'em) on these - and I guarantee some are making at least 60-70% right now.

Which means if they're selling a unit assembled for ~$3/watt, they have to source for $1.50/w (total) to make it 'worth their while'.

And that means: low-quality bins, and Asian chip fabs. No possibility of putting quality emitters (Osram, CREE, etc.) that cost $4-5+ a watt each - just for the emitters - into those.

FreedomGrower said:

one question though
Cree doesn't make a 660nm red for there xp-e
http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xpe.asp

so what does the one from Spain use ... ?

Click to expand...

True. Though if you look at threads like Pinstripe's and others that have DIY'd, you'll see they've gotten stellar results just using 625-630nm reds in conjunction with blue and a multi-spectrum white, also. The need for a large percentage of 660nm red in a panel simply isn't there (as long as it's covered somewhere) if you can get the spectrum close; the largest factor then becomes the quality and efficiency of the LEDs used.

----

Hmmm, I may have spoken too soon - looks like the esteemed Mr. X has arrived last week, along with the panel I'm talking about:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=215147

I believe he's listed the specs in the thread, FG...check 'em out.

(I think previous versions had mixed warm/cool whites to cover the 660nm and all the rest, looks like they've gone with just daylight whites this time around. Since the whites in commercial LED panels are simply phosphor-coated blue LEDs, it largely obviates the need to have separate blues as well, and virtually eliminates color blending issues (unless one uses very narrow lenses) resulting from emitter spacing considerations)

For those of you that don't know Mr. X, he's a well-known grower from España that was getting ~1g/w harvests with HIDs before starting to investigate LEDs about three years ago.

Here's a couple pics grown under the previous version of lamps from the same manufacturer (which were upgraded chinese panels using high-bin LEDs - a model they've now scrapped due to component (driver etc.) reliability issues, and now they do it all in-house):

(Chronic, 2nd run: almost 2 grams/watt)






In other words, a great example of what a (already good) grower can do, given the right technology. (He's also a great photographer) Folks should stop by his thread and show him some love!

Looks like this particular run he's eschewed density over area - dropping down the intensity from 240w/ m^2 (above pics) to 160. Knowing Mr. X, should be interesting!

-----

Personally, I'd change a few things about the new panels, and since they're a small company, I believe they'll allow a certain amount of customization if you want, but overall, I like the design. With good quality LEDs and a small number of watts on a decent heatsink, you don't even need fans, with reduced emitter density.

(Never hurts to have good airflow in the garden, though)

I believe they're meant more for SOG gardens (i.e. one plant per 'module'), but the maker also says the lenses are removable, and doing so has worked well for scrog-only type gardens also. Just drop the lights a little lower down to compensate.

On their sales site (in addition to the other spanish growing forums), they have a forum where folks have posted several grows with these already, and guys are getting ~1.4-1.5 g/watt + with 'em, even some first time growers.

Hope that helps!

alkalien said:

The sad thing ist, this discussion will be here until we get to know which LEDs in what binning those blackbox producers use.

Judging from the prices of the the top bin best of the class emitters, they aren't used in any commercial unit. But I can't say for sure, all I can say for sure is, that the design of all those made in china lamps is similar to identic, which does tell the whole story.

BTW: Haven't heard from the spanish guy for more than a year, kinda miss him. Would be great to hear he is ok!

Click to expand...

Agreed, alky. If one reads between the lines, it's pretty obvious what's what.

Since emitters are delivered as cut tape or by reel, the only distinguishing markings are on the packaging, not the emitters. Those don't exactly have bin numbers and big labels on em...

Only way to know what's in a panel (quality-wise) is to rip the emitters out and test them individually with the proper equipment.

Which, unless you're running tests over a long period of time, still tells you nothing about their longevity, let alone what bin or even what manufacturer it is.

(In other words: its pretty much a crap shoot, and you have to take the distributor's word for it - and go by the results of their customers. Which is why unbiased journals become so valuable.)

rives said:

Ah, Clowd, it is always so pleasant to read your knowledgeable, well-presented posts. Let's see - a post that isn't favorable to HGL, so it is obviously time for you to launch a bunch of foul-mouthed rhetoric and personal attacks. After all, it has worked so well in the past to get the posts binned.

Click to expand...

And here I was starting to think it was just me.

Well, I never said they won't work - just that they're not exactly efficient. I'm sure there's a market for products at all ends of the pricing and quality spectrum.

(And yeah, I appreciate the under-the-hood pics)

Always amazing when folks who must be puerile teens (judging from their behavior) intentionally take offense and make character attacks at those who make innocuous comments, and attempt to provide a different perspective - and actually further inform the discussion, rather than obfuscate it.

Life is too short to bother with those folks. As a former Mod on a popular, under-1100 Alexa ranked forum and having put down many spats between diaper-wearing 6 foot tall infants who have a penchant for rudeness simply because they're not in the same physical proximity as another person, I have little tolerance for baiting, cajoling, character attacks, flaming, racism, prejudice, and all the rest.

And, I guarantee you, the mods here do as well. Those kinds of people end up gone soon enough.

As Dennis Miller said: "You can't save everyone, folks. Just try not to be living next door to them when they 'go off'!"



Cheers,

-SX

sx646522 said:

Well, I never said they won't work - just that they're not exactly efficient.
-SX

Click to expand...

Well not exactly.
Im not going through your whole post to quote bits n pieces but the whole message you posted is utter rubbish!
Starting with 3w/3 chip diode BS, who uses those?, then moving to the "inefficient" power supplys, to not wishing that heatsink on your enemy, to some BS about the website and on and on.
I called you a fn liar and your response is "well i never said they didnt work"
ffs mate, pull your fkn head in!
I dont give a fuck what you think about a particular company or business, but being a snide lying arshole about their products doesnt make for a good look.
Im ready for a banning if the mods think my post is inapropriate, but frankly, with tools like you around, i think i could live without IC if thats the rub.

hey sx646522,

huge and excellent post! You said what I wanted to imply

I buy the Osram red and blue by the reel, they arent that expensive, I'd say 1€/W is archiveable. But having to assemble the units and to have them tested adds a lot to the price. I'd say about 5€/W is possible, before VAT of course.

Problem is, even if there are excellent units on the market and I'd say the spanish one seems to be one from what I've heard, the market for LED panels is allready poisoned.

How can I sell a 100W LED power unit for about 400€ if you can have a cinese panel for half that money? Nobody cares whether they just multiply he number of LEDs with 3W and then claim its power instead of calculating the power that reaches those LEDs? My 155W bought unit draws 120W from the socket and there is quite some loss on fans and drivers.

I hate to say it but I think you are right we will have to wait a few years before we can go into our favorite hydro shop and buy a LED panel. First everybody thinking about using LEDs has to learn that there is more about them than the figures the dealers websites state. I read a lot on the spanish forum, a bit hard not speaking the language but they got loads of pictures and I found out, they are just one step ahead. A few guys build lamps, made a lot of comparing grows and they developed a good aproach. I really hope they manage to spread the word!

I love the Mr. X Growshow by the way! Awesome skills and even better pictures!

They work, but interesting story from all!

I was thinking of getting an led grow panle but dont know the best site to get it from.
and what is the best size for a 3 1/2 feet wide x 4 feet tall grow space?

and I dont need any led bashing info. MmmK. just need to know a good led panle to get thats not over priced.

#1cheesebuds said:

I was thinking of getting an led grow panle but dont know the best site to get it from.
and what is the best size for a 3 1/2 feet wide x 4 feet tall grow space?

and I dont need any led bashing info. MmmK. just need to know a good led panle to get thats not over priced.

Click to expand...

Depends on your definition of overpriced. The cost is going to be high regardless of which unit(s) you buy, you just want to make sure and get value for your dollar. At this point, if I wanted to cover that footprint with a commercially available product, I would use (4) of the Lumigrow ES165's. They would run about $2300 from Greners. My other choice would be (4) of the Spectra 180's from GrowLEDHydro.com, which would run about $2000. I have a Lumigrow ES330, and it is a very nicely built unit (perhaps bulletproof), but I like the footprint flexibility of the lower wattage units. Also, (4) of the 165's are substantially cheaper than (2) 330's.

Those prices may seem exorbitant, but they actually aren't bad for what you get. I am building a hybrid LED fixture, and just spent $500 for 150 watts of top bin 660nm LED's - just the LED's, not the drivers, heatsinks, etc. That price would have been doubled if I hadn't broken the 100 count price break.

If you want it cheap go to made in china, there you get panels for about 2$/W. Probably the same most commercial sites sell...

@rives, I think you prices are too high! I pay 120€ for 100 top bin Osram Golden Dragon. Ordering a full reel of 200 of course. They might not bee the best but the price is an issue I guess. I actually pay the same for 630 and 660nm reds.

alkalien said:

@rives, I think you prices are too high! I pay 120€ for 100 top bin Osram Golden Dragon. Ordering a full reel of 200 of course. They might not bee the best but the price is an issue I guess. I actually pay the same for 630 and 660nm reds.

Click to expand...

Apparently you are right! Where are you finding these? The best price I have been able to find is 30% higher than that, and they were way cheaper than the competition.

rives said:

if I wanted to cover that footprint with a commercially available product, I would use (4) of the Lumigrow ES165's. They would run about $2300 from Greners. My other choice would be (4) of the Spectra 180's from GrowLEDHydro.com, which would run about $2000.

Click to expand...

from what i read on IC to get really great results from Lumigrow, you need some other lighting for better spectrum. I wonder how well Lumigrow does on it's own, with no added light.

GrowLEDHydro boasts something like 12 different spectrums. Does this make it a better light? Plus its cheaper. Have you used either of these lights?

one Q said:

from what i read on IC to get really great results from Lumigrow, you need some other lighting for better spectrum. I wonder how well Lumigrow does on it's own, with no added light.

GrowLEDHydro boasts something like 12 different spectrums. Does this make it a better light? Plus its cheaper. Have you used either of these lights?

Click to expand...

Yes, as I said below I have a Lumigrow ES330. I apparently read the same things that you have and supplemented mine with a couple 55w PL-L's that I had around. I don't know that the additional light was necessary, but it was easy to do and I had the lights available. I do know that I have been quite happy with the results!

I am getting ready to flip to 12/12 with my lights. Chinese made at $450.00 each and i have 2 running in my tent. One is full spectrum and the other is the far reds and red, with half blue. I vegged with the full spectrum light till a couple weeks ago to save a bit of cash. They are both 150w so i guess we shall see what the cheap lights can do without any supplemental lighting. I have heard this, even from the grower i got them from, but i think he was running 6 of these and he really put out the GPW with nice grows. But this is only my second run as i didn't do much with my first. I lst'ed, supercroped, pinched and now i only need a screen for the scrog im planning. Not to much there, but your welcome to stop in...................................peace.


LSY

12 band? Holy crap, just use a blue/red light, add an ordinary light bulb for photomorphogenesis->flower induction (R/FR) + IR (transpiration) and a reptile UV lamp that actually gives the right UV(b). Outside the PAR-Spectrum there are better sources than LED.

Is this a good deal? http://compare.ebay.com/like/180695386321?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y

my space size is 3w x 3d x 4h. will this work good for flowering and keep the heat down.
im a few weeks in flowering now.

IMO ufos are rubbish

Ok iv vegged this one just over a month and getting ready to flip, but wanted to post it before to see how well it does. All LED's used on this very powerful Indica, which i have two of and the other 4 will be under Scrog. The other 4 are WW x Blueberry. I did a lot of pinching that gave me great branch growth, but my LSTing sucked. So i hope i can get some stretching into 12/12 as they really havent stretched at all to this point and the lights need lowered big time. They have been about 2' 6'' away, but will be moving them for flip.


Just trying to show what the lights can do. After this post, i will be posting in the thread i made if anyone would like to see the progress.

Be cool



LSY

I must say another qustion should be asked along with 'which LED?' and tha Q should be 'for my skill level' followed by where the grower thinks they are on the skills meter. I consider myself a 5-6 out of 10 but I have still had good results using LED. In fact, I grew an awesome, frost covered LUI with 2 cheap ass 90W ufo's which I later supplemented with a 130W 6400K fluoro. I had the ufo's on opposite sides of the plant for veg and most of flower. I then undid one of the clips on each ufo so they were at an angle and providing light to the lower areas of the plant. After 5 weeks of flowering I added the 130W fl directly on top of the plant and here's a pic of the result after 9wks, 1wk b4 I cut.

Not bad if you ask me especially as I consider my skill level to be intermediate. No doubt the fact I used DWC as the method and Canna PK13/14 along with my usual nute scheme helped get the plant to that size. Yielded a fair bit too, didn't weigh it properly but I'd say 3 or 4 ounces which isn't a good G/PW amount but a decent result using LEDs for the first time. LEDs obviously work, Irish is proof of that! but having them setup well and having your style dialled well is important as is supplemental light if you have a unit with low penetration. Just my opinion.