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Water pH alone has very little impact on coco grow pH

ShroomDr

CartoonHead
Veteran
the title of this thread is insidious, and phrased in a way to cause disagreement. (which the thread starter would then happily squash).

i think thats the root idea of this thread... mostly straight tap water has excellent buffering capabilities and higher alkalinity than RO water. therefore being a PH nazi is not needed like it is with RO water... on the other hand without having an expensive water screening of your tap water, theres not telling what all chemicals and nutes are dissolved in your water... so why not raise the alkalinity of your RO water increasing its buffering capabilities? either way, i dont think RO is absolutely needed and many people out there prove that. the question is, will using RO water with added alkalinity be more effective than straight tap water? i think so as we are starting with a clean slate and injecting our nutes how we see fit. not starting with 300-700ppm water and adding nutes to that... who knows what the fuck is in there? unless we send our water into a lab for expensive screening...

This is clear and to the actual point. Well Done.

Titles like this, make growing seem more complicated that it is.
 

slowandeasy

Active member
Veteran
the title of this thread is insidious, and phrased in a way to cause disagreement. (which the thread starter would then happily squash).



This is clear and to the actual point. Well Done.

Titles like this, make growing seem more complicated that it is.


I agree. I do not care what anyone says, pH effects my plants. Telling people otherwise is just bad advice.
 

p0opstlnksal0t

Active member
i will be treating my grows more like Fish in an aquarium, rather than mushrooms in a hospital sterilized atmosphere...

consideration of KH is that you can generally safely add the buffers (both freshwater and saltwater) that effect KH without sudden changes in chemistry (unless your KH is under 80 ppm already), unlike a direct ph or GH change. For this reason you do not always have to check your KH before adding buffers such as Wonder shells.
Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate HCO3-), is often used for KH, Sodium Bi-Carbonate will buffer at 8.0 to 8.2. They are very good at buffering at that pH. Just a little carbonate will absorb free H+ ions, and this causes alkalinity (which is the lack of H+ ions). To stop the carbonate ions from consuming too much H+ and to keep a pH of 7.0 we need to restrict the amount of Baking Soda used, as it is always looking for H+ ions to consume.
This is why I prefer using Calcium based products; Sea Chem Buffer (Marine OR Freshwater, Wonder Shells, or aragonite. The Sea Chem Buffer can be safely used for raising kH (& pH) in freshwater as well and is preferable and safer to baking soda, especially in community aquariums where baking soda can change pH too quickly, the added calcium and other elements keep a more stable pH and add necessary trace and minor elements (Of coarse, use in moderation in freshwater).
Wonder Shells can be safely combined with Baking Soda as well.

If you have a very unstable KH level (drops rapidly), look into causes such as a large amount of decomposing organic material. The more organic break down (de-nitrification), the more acids produced. Some filters if not cleaned regularly can cause this; including canister, UGF, and Wet/Dry.

GH
General hardness (GH) refers to the dissolved concentration primarily of magnesium and calcium ions. Both Calcium and magnesium are important for proper internal osmotic processes in fish (and invertebrates). Other ions can contribute to water hardness but are usually insignificant and difficult to measure. When fish are said to prefer ``soft'' or ``hard'' water, it is GH, not the kH that is being referred to. GH will not directly affect pH although "hard" water is generally alkaline due to some interaction of GH and kH.

ELECTROLYTES;

Electrolytes are molecular substances containing free ions which behave as an electrically conductive medium. In fish (or other living things) the primary ions of electrolytes are sodium (Na+), potassium (K+), calcium (Ca++), magnesium (Mg++), chloride (Cl-), phosphate (PO4---), and hydrogen carbonate (HCO3-).
Fish and other aquatic life forms require a subtle and complex electrolyte balance between the intracellular (inside the cell) and extra cellular (outside the cell such as plasma membranes) environment. In particular, the maintenance of precise osmotic gradients of electrolytes is important. These gradients affect and regulate the hydration of the fish, blood pH, and disease resistance and are important for proper nerve and muscle function.

CALCIUM CARBONATE:
Calcium carbonate in your aquarium will keep a more stable Kh, while magnesium is another important element that works with calcium. A proper amount of Calcium and Magnesium in your aquarium will affect the fish’ health positively. Besides helping to keep a stable Kh, magnesium and calcium have been shown to increase resistance to degenerate diseases by lowering the acidity in the body. This will help with prevention of ich, fungus, and general “wear and tear” in your fish. Calcium also helps in healing and stress, and without proper calcium levels healing may be difficult or impossible. The addition of antibiotics (such as Tetracycline) will lower calcium absorption.
Another note about calcium; Calcium is very important to proper discus health, yet calcium can adversely affect the pH of a discus aquarium, which is generally kept at a pH below 6.5. I have successfully used calcium (Wonder Shells or Calcium Polygluconate) in discus aquariums by using a mix of RO (Reverse Osmosis) water and tap water (dilution will vary depending on your tap and tank water parameters). I then add electrolytes to the RO water and add peat to the filters. I have used this method successfully with discus and added the needed calcium with no pH climb.
 
C

Carl Carlson

the title of this thread is insidious, and phrased in a way to cause disagreement. (which the thread starter would then happily squash).

It is meant to be an eyegrabber, but not meant to cause disagreement. I borrowed that line from the Fafard FAQ and left it looking obvious.

However, water pH alone has little impact on the mix.
 
C

Carl Carlson

I agree. I do not care what anyone says, pH effects my plants. Telling people otherwise is just bad advice.

I hope you haven't walk away from this thread, because you really have missed it entirely so far. start over from this point -

Seriously - who am I? Just some dude posting on the internet.

But do you think for example that Fafard is lying or misinforming their customers?

What from their FAQ doesn't make sense? Do you think the laws of chemistry don't apply to your plants for some reason?

No one said that pH doesn't effect plants.
 
C

Carl Carlson

the title of this thread is insidious, and phrased in a way to cause disagreement. (which the thread starter would then happily squash).



This is clear and to the actual point. Well Done.

Titles like this, make growing seem more complicated that it is.

Double reply by me, but you guys are all still missing the point.

Seriously, it's not rocket science! It's just chemistry! (that's a joke)

This point right here made by poop is completely wrong. It may be clear and a point, but it is still wrong.

therefore being a PH nazi is not needed like it is with RO water..

Alkalinity determines that R.O. water makes it impossible to be a pH nazi in soilless container grows.

R.O. water has no alkalinity, i.e. no buffering capacity, therefore the pH of the r.o. water that you slaved over to change to 5.8 is going to instantly change to whatever the actual pH of the coco or whatever your mix is made up of. At the very same time, there is ongoing process in which that water, because it has no capacity to buffer acids, can allow the pH of the soilless medium to drop. The opposite is true for water with high levels of alkalinity. Again - That is why with R.O. or tap with low alkalinity like mine, the grower uses a fertilizer that is low in acidic ammoniacal nitrogen. GH floranova and GH Flora series are both 6% ammoniacal which is nice and low. Most hydro nutes are around that low for a reason. Don't a lot of them mention being designed for usage with R.O. water? COuld have sworn I've seen that posted before. Haven't you guys ever changed water sources in your careers and noticed that for one as compared to the other it required a lot less pH down or up to make the change you were looking for?

I seriously HTH
 

p0opstlnksal0t

Active member
Double reply by me, but you guys are all still missing the point.

Seriously, it's not rocket science! It's just chemistry! (that's a joke)

This point right here made by poop is completely wrong. It may be clear and a point, but it is still wrong.



Alkalinity determines that R.O. water makes it impossible to be a pH nazi in soilless container grows.

R.O. water has no alkalinity, i.e. no buffering capacity, therefore the pH of the r.o. water that you slaved over to change to 5.8 is going to instantly change to whatever the actual pH of the coco or whatever your mix is made up of. At the very same time, there is ongoing process in which that water, because it has no capacity to buffer acids, can allow the pH of the soilless medium to drop. The opposite is true for water with high levels of alkalinity. Again - That is why with R.O. or tap with low alkalinity like mine, the grower uses a fertilizer that is low in acidic ammoniacal nitrogen. GH floranova and GH Flora series are both 6% ammoniacal which is nice and low. Most hydro nutes are around that low for a reason. Don't a lot of them mention being designed for usage with R.O. water? COuld have sworn I've seen that posted before. Haven't you guys ever changed water sources in your careers and noticed that for one as compared to the other it required a lot less pH down or up to make the change you were looking for?

I seriously HTH

i think you misinterpreted my statement. reread it. the reason you would be a ph nazi in ro is because is has no alkalinity. tap in most instances has higher alkilinity to to cushion h+ ions and cancel them out. you wont know unless you get a master test kit that can test your tap and tell you your gh and kh of your tap water... i guess then it would be up to you what you want to do with your water. i fail to see how any statements i have made here are wrong? you just said my statement was wrong, then proved it right in the same breath.
 

slowandeasy

Active member
Veteran
I hope you haven't walk away from this thread, because you really have missed it entirely so far. start over from this point -

Seriously - who am I? Just some dude posting on the internet.

But do you think for example that Fafard is lying or misinforming their customers?

What from their FAQ doesn't make sense? Do you think the laws of chemistry don't apply to your plants for some reason?

No one said that pH doesn't effect plants.

What is the title of this thread? You yourself said it does not effect plants. You are just some dude on the internet, and I do not care what Farfard says. I read my plants, and they tell me they do not like my Tap water. They tell me they like RO water and Magi-Cal. I would rather use RO water, and know what is going into my plants. Tap water here is 100ppm, not much in it...but still my plants hate it....no matter the pH. RO water and Magi-Cal does great in the 5.6-62 range. Why try to go out of the known optimal range?

I do agree that RO water is much different, and obviously has no buffers. But I have more trouble trying to make my Tap water work well, than RO...so I go with the one that works best.

I have read the whole thread, so do not tell me what I have missed and where to start over. You can quote whomever you like, I trust my eyes more than you or anyone else for that matter. You make some good points, so dont think Im being a dick. Good luck on your grows.
 

Wait...What?

Active member
Veteran
I'm with slowandeasy. With tap water, my pH goes all over the place and blending tap with ro didn't help. Once I went full ro and added the calmag, with 5.6 on the input pH, was I able to eliminate the yellow creeping crunchy curl that comes from the bottom of the plant and works upwards
 
C

Carl Carlson

You yourself said it does not effect plants.

No I didn't.

Now you're just deliberately and for the second time misrepresenting the entire thing.
 
C

Carl Carlson

I'm with slowandeasy. With tap water, my pH goes all over the place and blending tap with ro didn't help. Once I went full ro and added the calmag, with 5.6 on the input pH, was I able to eliminate the yellow creeping crunchy curl that comes from the bottom of the plant and works upwards

Go back and read the links.

It's pretty simple when I don't try to explain it.

First of all, your tap water was probably loaded up with crap.

When you mix nutes with the R.O. water the pH drops very low, right?

That's because the R.O. water has no capacity to buffer acids, i.e. zero alkalinity.

Still with me?

I never said you shouldn't raise it back into the generally accepted range for crops, i.e. 5 - 7, like for example it is stated on the bottle of FloraNova. That is for the solubility of the nutrients.

What I've said now, probably 300 hundred times, is that whatever you set the irrigation water pH to does not mean that when you water the plant, it will also set the pH of the coco to the same number. You simply cannot argue with this. Fafard is not lying. Mssrs, Fisher, Argo, Kim Williams, Doug Bailey, etc. are not lying. These are companies and people with reputations on the line that have conducted controlled experiment after controlled experiment. They manage greenhouses, they don't grow in closets. And by the way, they don't measure the pH of the coco by measuring the runoff that comes out as a result of watering with nutes (one of the most useless things ever that is taught on these forums).

You cured the ills of your plants by eliminating shitty water and adding Ca and Mg to the nute mix. You did not program the pH of the coco to the same pH of the irrigation water. Slowandeasy is misrepresenting my words and you guys are both arguing with the laws of chemistry.
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
interesting thread carl, we have discussed this before over in the organics forum :)
as you know im a believer in adjusting pH of my water, but i guess coming from a chalk/limestone region that my alkalinity is also high which is much more of a factor according to your links ?

VG
 

p0opstlnksal0t

Active member
thats what i took away from this thread. I dont even know why some people are arguing this point. I think maybe most people read the title, and skipped over that actual post. Either way, you are right there is nothing really to argue here, just read the info and ask questions about the facts and tests that were conclusive. Id like to point out that I also took away the knowledge that water higher in alkalinity will not drop ph drastically like water with low to no alkalinity. weather or not your tap supplies sufficiently higher levels of carbonate-bicarbonate molecules to aid in buffering is a totally separate and different topic altogether. From what ive gathered here, water higher in alkalinity is a better choice for a coco grow.... unless im misreading this thread altogether? which might be the case, i did a shitload of drugs when i was younger and its catching up to me now...


Go back and read the links.

It's pretty simple when I don't try to explain it.

First of all, your tap water was probably loaded up with crap.

When you mix nutes with the R.O. water the pH drops very low, right?

That's because the R.O. water has no capacity to buffer acids, i.e. zero alkalinity.

Still with me?

I never said you shouldn't raise it back into the generally accepted range for crops, i.e. 5 - 7, like for example it is stated on the bottle of FloraNova. That is for the solubility of the nutrients.

What I've said now, probably 300 hundred times, is that whatever you set the irrigation water pH to does not mean that when you water the plant, it will also set the pH of the coco to the same number. You simply cannot argue with this. Fafard is not lying. Mssrs, Fisher, Argo, Kim Williams, Doug Bailey, etc. are not lying. These are companies and people with reputations on the line that have conducted controlled experiment after controlled experiment. They manage greenhouses, they don't grow in closets. And by the way, they don't measure the pH of the coco by measuring the runoff that comes out as a result of watering with nutes (one of the most useless things ever that is taught on these forums).

You cured the ills of your plants by eliminating shitty water and adding Ca and Mg to the nute mix. You did not program the pH of the coco to the same pH of the irrigation water. Slowandeasy is misrepresenting my words and you guys are both arguing with the laws of chemistry.

gl
 

slowandeasy

Active member
Veteran
No I didn't.

Now you're just deliberately and for the second time misrepresenting the entire thing.


Maybe the title of your thread should be changed, because it sounds like you are telling people pH is not important. If your so into what you are promoting, why dont you start feeding your plants pH 7? I do not trust run off numbers, but I will always make sure the pH of water going in is in the right zone...and when I do check my runoff it is pretty close to what went in.

I agree RO water has zero buffers, that is why if you try to adjust plain RO water it will not take much to swing the pH extremely fast...but with nutes my RO water actually stays more stable than my tap. When I do DWC, my nutes with RO water stays too stable. My tap is about 100 ppm, so it cannot be loaded with too much crap. With GH nutes and tap, my plants get def, do you think it is because it is only 100ppm? I would love to use tap, but it does not work well.

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, but I learned a long time ago to trust my experiences over other peoples opinions. Like I said before I read my plants, like any good grower does. Trust whomever you want, if it works for you that is all that matters.
 
C

Carl Carlson

Put egos aside. And separate facts from opinions.

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, but I learned a long time ago to trust my experiences over other peoples opinions. Like I said before I read my plants, like any good grower does.

What fixed your plants was adding the Ca and Mg. That was you, right?

I think you'd find the pH of coir in particular to be remarkably stable during the course of a grow and if you reuse it, over several grows.

It's less acidic than peat to begin with and just doesn't fall apart. Do you know what I mean by that? Pieces of coir stay together for a long time. I suspect that anyone using coir and watering with R.O. or otherwise low alkalinity water and using a nutrient with a low % of ammoniacal nitrogen, such as FloraNova or Flora series, would find that the pH of their plants would be stable throughout the grow, despite all of the little pH tricks they might play. How else is it possible that we could have all of these successful growers, some use 5.2, some use 5.5, some use 5.6, some use 6.0, etc. some switch from below 5.8 to above with every res., but all are using the coco medium? That's the question I found myself asking after reading through the main coco threads on this forum and others.

Have you actually ever measured the pH of the coco during a grow?

And I don't mean by watering with nutes and testing the runoff. Or even watering with plain water when the plant isn't already saturated and testing the the runoff.

I mean using one of the methods that the companies we buy our mediums from use. At home I use the NCState pour-through. http://www.agr.state.nc.us/agronomi/release/9-09mitchell.htm
 
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Carl Carlson

this is a good one.

just plain english, my comments in parenthesis, with longer comment at the end.

Irrigation Water Quality for Greenhouse Production from U. of Tenn extension:

http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/pb1617.pdf

Most plants grow best when the media solution pH is 5.6 to 6.2.

The key effect of irrigation water on media pH is not the water pH but the alkalinity of the water. Alkalinity is the concentration of soluble compounds in the water that have the ability to neutralize acids. Alkalinity is related to pH, because water with high alkalinity has a high Òbuffering capacityÓ or capacity for neutralizing added acids.

Neutralizing Alkalinity/pH Adjustment

The ability to correct water pH problems and maintain the proper media pH through the crop cycle depends on the alkalinity of the irrigation water. It takes more acid to decrease the pH of water with high alkalinity than water with low alkalinity. The only economical way to eliminate alkalinity and lower the pH of water is to neutralize with acid. To calculate the amount of acid required, we need to know the starting pH and alkalinity of the irrigation water. You can either target a pH level or an endpoint alkalinity level during treatment. Targeting a pH of 5.8 should be adequate to prevent slow changes in pH of the media solution over the cropping period.

(NOTE THE ABOVE, NOTHING IS SAID ABOUT MAKING FAST CHANGES OF THE MEDIA SOLUTION PH BY TARGETING A PARTICULAR IRRIGATION WATER PH)

[..]

There are merits to setting a target alkalinity endpoint, rather than pH.

(Why would they say this if one could fast-change the pH of the media solution by targeting an irrigation water pH?)

[..]

(a section on RO Water)

For this reason, water to be purified by RO is usually pretreated to remove suspended solids, calcium carbonates and chlorine, and the pH is adjusted down if it is above 7.

(If your nutes adjust it down for you within the acceptable range there is no reason to make further adjustments)

My tap water has 45 ppm alkalinity. WHen you add nutes to your RO waater, what does the pH drop too? No matter if my tap water pH is 7.5 or 9.5, GH nutes always set the pH to 5.8 - 6.0. And after methodically lowering and raising it myself when I thought the occasion called for it, I ran a grow with no changes and the plants performed exactly the same. JUST LIKE YOU if I remember correctly, this occurred after I added the needed amounts of Calcium and Magnesium to the mix, the problems were over, and so it wasn't the pH obsession that fixed the problems.
 

slowandeasy

Active member
Veteran
With RO water and GH nutes, my mix comes out to 4.9 pH everytime. I agree with you 100 percent the Magi-Cal is what helped fix the problem, not the pH. But even with the Magi-Cal, you still need to be in the optimal range. I also agree that many people find many differnt pH ranges to work.

My tap is 100ppm, does not have Chloramine in it and has some trace minerals I called the water company. Do you know why my plants hate it? If you have a guess I am all ears.

BTW I have no ego, I just trust my eyes and experience. Just because 5.2 works for somebody, does not mean it will work for everybody....which is why I started a thread a month ago about pH and Coco. I am new to Coco, and did DWC for a decade. In DWC, pH matters! If your pH is out of whack, you will know by tomorrow. Maybe that is the reason I care so much about pH? If my plants look happy and the pH going into the Coco is good, it really does not matter what the pH of the Coco is. If pH does not matter in Coco, why do so many people swear by certain ranges?
 

Slimm

Member
Here is my understanding of ph and alkalinity. When you have low alkalinity, changes to your input ph will have less effect on the media ph than using the same input ph with higher alkalinity water. This is not necessarily bad and many growers use this to their advantage. Knowing that the media ph will settle toward 6.1 for instance one would set the input ph to somewhere between 5.5 and 5.8. The ph will drift upward since there is too little alkalinity in the water for it too keep the media ph down. As the ph drifts up, different nutrients become available to the plant, and the media ph finally stabilizes. Does this sound right to you Carl?
 

SupraSPL

Member
I agree, the pH of the feed water is less important than the buffering capacity. And also damn them for calling basicity alkaline and buffering capacity alkalinity. That sort of stupidity scares away sane people from trying to understand simple concepts like this.

R/O water can get down in the 4.5 pH range just from carbonic acid in the air. If you pour it though your media and test the PH it will jump right up to the actual pH of your media. That proves the title of thread is technically true.
 

SupraSPL

Member
It is a good point that poop made about controlling the feed water ppm and only adding what we want. There are other good reasons for using R/O water. I think of MJ like I think of fruits and veggies. It is worthwhile to keep these crops clean. Tap water contains hundreds of pharmaceutical compounds, a drug cocktail with plenty of potential for synergy. They are called emerging contaminants.

Bad things happen when you eat where you sh*t, as nature intended. Then there are herbicides, pesticides, heavy metals and persistant organic pollutants to consider. Nothing I want in my smoke or food if I can avoid it.

My tap is 100ppm, does not have Chloramine in it and has some trace minerals I called the water company. Do you know why my plants hate it? If you have a guess I am all ears.

Maybe the ppm is all coming from calcium carbonate with little or no mag? What is the pH and what symptoms do the plants display?
 

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