My ph appears too low at the moment, ....

.... And I'm trying to avoid further sources of magnesium, as I'm correcting k, mag, etc., per my last soil test.

I don't want to go full tilt boogie on K, or I'd add a smidgeon of wood ash I have, and bump it up a bit that way.

On top of it, I've backed myself into a corner again, and have very little time to let the first 5-6 batches of my corrected (?) mix I'm processing at the moment 'percolate' and become more active, so I've slightly increased the Ocean Forest adjunct, and another ready-to-use source, as a here-and-now lifeline while things come on-line...

Any recommendations other than dolomite (don't want the increased mag), wood ash (don't think I need the increased k) ????

And the wood ash is mobile via watering anyway, thus may dissipate in short order, in terms of ph benefit, from my understanding.

Thoughts on raising ph without the above complications?

Also, is the gypsum (specifically with the sulfur content) leading to a greater acidification than I might see with less gypsum in the mix?

Thanks.

Well.. In that I've gotta' run and get this happening, or so the plants seem to be saying, with their metaphorical arms crossed, tapping their proverbial toes, and an imagined irritated look.... "I gotta' rock.."

So, I'm going to bite my finger hard, put about 2-3 TBSP of old clean wood ash into what amounts to about 12 gallons of soilless mix, not counting the <50 cups (~3 gallons) of Ocean Forest/Kellogg OMRI (80:20) planting mix combination, and 35 cups (>2 gallons) of a now-diluted previous mix that was too stout, stand on one foot, do a pirouette, and see what the ph reagent says THIS time...

*One wild card being that SOMETHING I've been using in my mixes over the past year or so, has an apparent delayed reaction in re. to testing ph, as stated last year. Never saw this before, but maybe once or twice, long ago, but the ph results change, when re-testing the greater aggregate the next day or 2... So there's a neutralizing or mildly alkaline <something-or-other> in there, that, despite the alcohol-based reagent typically getting ph results readily, it's been delayed.

Like I needed yet -ANOTHER- perplexing mystery in life!!!

Oyster Shell Powder, calcium carbonate with no mag.

Mr^^

I would use calcium carbonate to raise the ph in soil if it was available.

Are you testing the ph yourself or sending it in each time?

Diluting what you have may be the answer, sounds like you have considered that.

When I have made soil mixes in the past I’ve obsessed over having enough of everything in the beginning stage of building.
Now I would rather come up a little short and topdress to to get things where they need to be.

After testing initial mixes I often am way high in P, N, Fe, S, Al, sodium.

I tossed my oyster shell flour in a mass nixing of anything that -might- have ^ sodium in it (with the exception of kelp meal, which I reduced considerably, as well as reducing my EWCs a bunch), as I was battling sodium last year in testing.

Brought the sodium down a bit via one discarding of amendments or another, but still higher than I'd like, so I'd flushed a bit with gypsum in H2O after the last test on the last mix before this one, then reduced nutes that needed reduction. (Thanks Jidoka and Growing Crazy for the gypsum cure; the plants at that time had greened up over night, after the flush, btw.. ).

I'm having soil analysis done by Brookside Lab, after mixing and wetting, but I'm testing ph myself with a LaMotte's 2221 alcohol-based reagent and tray that I've used for many years, with a good amount of success.. 'Current' read indicates about a 5.6, but if I let it sit, I'd bet a case of good beer that it bumps up to around 6 or greater, just based on observations over the last year, with this mystery phenomenon...

I have a 40-lb. bag of garden lime on-hand, that touts 95-96% calcium, and maybe 1.5% magnesium or so, which beats the tar out of using dolomite, but not sure if it has the capacity to raise ph in the way I'd like.

My well water has a notable presence of calcium carbonate, but don't think the slow rise that might result from watering over time with untreated water is the key.

And all of this coming at crunch time is my own fault. If procrastination were a sport, I'd be in the Olympics. ;^>)

Last batch that was too hot, 'cooked' for about 3 weeks or so in totes. This batch, if I'm lucky, will get maybe 3-5 days to percolate, (which is why I upped the amount of Ocean Forest and Kellogg bags <retaining an 80:20 ratio of OF to Kellogg>, but with increased volume overall..)

Thanks for pitching in, too, btw.

And I'm completely out of rep, too, or you'd see some. ;^>)

So, the one part I'm still uncertain about.. (One part? That was BS; there's lots I'm uncertain about), is re. the potential acidity in ph readings from the sulfur component in the gypsum?

I can go toss some into my tray and wet it with the reagent, and maybe find out that way, but... any thoughts?

Is it possible that's my mystery component resulting in delayed rising of the ph over the next day or 2 after mixing? The sulfur content in the gypsum?

And another unanswered question from last year; my untreated, unfiltered well water has a total hardness of somewhere near 380. If I acidify the H2O (not right now with the current ph in the mix, but a valuable question, nonetheless) does adding the food-grade citric acid increase TDS, reduce, or stay the same?

Thanks again.

Looks like the Calcium Carb is the way of the walk......

And I get an idiot award.

I pulled out the larger bulk bag of my 'garden lime,' and it states (assuming the label's correct, and there's been reason not to trust, over the last decade or so): 97% calcium carbonate, 38% calcium, 1.5% magnesium. AKA 'The right stuff'...

So.. I recalled the mag content accurately. The rest had partly fallen into the gray void.

Earlier on, in uncertainty, I'd already added 2 TBSP of Lilly Miller Super Sweet to the larger aggregate, in addition to the original amounts of other calcium sources in my adjusted mix, but I doubt that'll carry any serious consequences.

Thanks, and I feel sheepish.

I'm headed to the shop to drop some of the gypsum I've got into a ph test tray, and see what it has to say.

That leaves the question re. TDS and addition of food-grade citric acid crystals (Natural Down); does it lower, raise, or have no affect on TDS #s?

(*Asking in part because I still haven't sprung for a R/O D/I kit, and I know 380 on total hardness is pretty high.)

Thanks again. I'll read more closely as to what I have on-hand.

Still waiting for rep to build back up for you, MedResearcher..

I tested the gypsum I'm using and at least ONE primary culprit in acidification has been found; it tests at about 5.5, and there's about 3/4 cup in the total aggregate, as well as other organics that might/could contribute to my more stubborn ph issues.

My bag of Super Sweet is over 20 years old, but indicates very similar content to the garden lime I used, with the exception of somewhat lower Calcium Carbonate; I think around 90 or 91% rather than the 97% in the other, non-granular lime.

So, all's well in that regard. And thanks for the help.

Anyone got an answer for the citric acid and TDS #s?

I'll do some more searches for that now, but months ago, when I tried to find results with my older super-slow dial-up internet, I came up with nothing specific. I'll see if the new fiber optic has any different offerings.

Nope. Still the same black slate re. fast results from Google where obvious answers concerning TDS and citric acid is concerned, so I'll lay that here, and see if it gets any responses.

Thanks again.

I’ve put a couple tablespoons of gypsum in 5 gals of water and it doesn’t affect it. Not supposed to if I’m not mistaken, not sure about a later sulphur effect on ph.

The times I’ve tried to lower soil ph with sulphur it seemed to take a lot, like 1-2 cups per ft square area worked in a few inches at least, just to drop it a point for hydrangeas.

I’m not sure of magnesium levels of calcium carbonate, 1.5 sounds higher than I would guess, but it’s not 6-7 like dolomitic lime

What ph are you shooting for?

Thanks red.

I'd just pinched a couple of spots of the granular gypsum I'm using into the holes in the test tray, and, with the alcohol-base reagent extracting, it usually gets into the nitty-gritty of what I'm testing pretty well. Which is why I said earlier, when I've seen this limited delay over the last year or so, in ph'ing the finished aggregate, it's been perplexing.

My target ph for the soilless mix I'm trying to build is above 6.4 and not above 6.7;preferably ~6.6.

It's been a long, frustrating process, trying to get this mix straight, with a desired 1-3-2 ratio on n-p-k, for a bloom soil, and perhaps a 2-2-2 ratio on veg mix, w/the micros in the right places, or at least acceptable. But the veg mix is far from a priority at the moment.

Last year, when I should've been spot on, or at least much closer, with some notable excess in P, I ended up testing WAY deficient in P; the 50-lb bag of steamed bone meal I had from the feed store was bogus. May or may not have had sufficient Ca, but had squat available in P, per test results, whether by acid extraction or H2O extraction.

I switched P sources, went heavier on bat guanos and seabird guano, smaller amount of steamed bone meal from a better source, and the last test was in excess on everything but boron, though not in the 'HOLY SHIT' range..

So the mix I'm constructing now, in response to the last one's testing, is now adjusted closer to 'right,' per the last mix results.

Lacking a hard-sciences background, but being somewhat proficient with math, I've gleaned what I can remember, or have noted from others (which seems to be shrinking at times.. Geritol maybe?) and am headed in the right direction, but this resistant/stubborn ph issue may now be resolved.

20 year ago here I had delivered water into a 1,500 gallon holding tank. My cannabis liked that H2O a lot more. I'll spare you the story re. the implosion of that company.

With our calcium-carbonate-laden well water, I've used agricultural sulfur pellets (small, maybe 1/4" diameter, disc-like sulfur granules) about every third or so year in the raised-beds veggie garden and spuds field, as the ph out there tends to creep up over time. The sulfur isn't as fast-acting as aluminum sulfate or iron sulfate, but it's less caustic to the plants overall, and lasts longer in effect from what I've seen.

Thanks again.

The gypsum I've got is
'Epsoma'
'Organic'
'Garden Gypsum'
'Soil Conditioner'
'All Natural & Pelletized....'

Admittedly, the last line on their label is inconsequentially contradictory, is it not?

roots will change those pH numbers
gets some plants growing and check again
be interesting to see how it changes for you
Let us know what you find out
good luck moose eater

To Ponder;
Because of all this hydrogen spilling into the soil solution, I am led to realize that the pH must fluctuate in different areas and at different times according to the needs of the plant, organisms & soil. If using natural growing techniques, hypothetically this is controlled by interplay between root excretions and microbial activity. I therefore wonder what effect, control of the overall pH in soil has beyond a gross scale target where soil is very acidic or alkaline.
Can one accurately check pH levels in the soil solution and is the time/nutrient phase it is tested in, a factor?

Click to expand...

three colors ^ representing three very good points/questions to ponder


https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=339371
Root Exudates is a great read if you haven't seen it and good to refresh if you have

Thanks Rico. I'm still out of rep.

For the aggregate involved, I left off last night with 18 TBSP (1 cup, 2 TBSP) of the lower mag (1.5%) Garden Lime, 7 TBSP of dolomite (which I wish I hadn't added now, as I was somewhat desperate at that point to bring the ph up to my target), and 2 TBSP of the Lilly Miller Super Sweet (which lists no #s for mag on the bag, is 20 years old, and has slightly lower calcium carb #s than the Low Mag Garden Lime).

I'd read the organic soil mix threads a long time ago, wherein 'they' (BurnOne, et al) referenced ph being less of an issue, and ph finding its own balance with the soil's 'waking' or natural evolution. But I never really trusted it. It wasn't in synch with what I'd been taught/learned.

I checked the finished batch from last night, and I'd say it's around 6.1-6.2 at the moment.

Having run myself out of time, my plan is to draw back on the dolomite (back down to 5 TBSP overall, maybe even 4), increase the Garden Lime to ~22 TBSP (1 cup, 6 TBSP) Discontinue the Super Sweet altogether, and send in a sample for the lab for them to scratch their heads over.

The absence of 'cooking time' will make for greater disparity between the acid extraction test, and the H2O extraction test, but again, I did that to myself.. :^(

The rest of the amendments (N,P,K, and secondary, as well as micros) have been tentatively adjusted, per the last test, but until I see their results from this go, it's been simply applying math, and believing I'm a bit closer to nirvana..

Perhaps the most frustrating part in all of this, and has been for a number of years, is variability in the values purported on the labels of the many organic amendments/nutes, versus what's actually IN the many organic amendments once tested.

Meanwhile, yes, I have a number of plants that are in 5" sq. pots, that are still looking pretty good, all things considered, but starting to get a bit irritated with me. So I'll let them sit on maintenance in the 5" pots for a couple more days, put some EM-1 into the totes with the newly adjusted mixes to make up for the shorter 'cooking' time, and go from there.

Thanks again.

By the way, my last soil test from Brookside showed calcium saturation at ~61%, so I had room left, based on slownickel's target for Calcium, to continue playing with the calcium sources, while still trying to keep the mag down.

Thanks again.

Sulfur is pretty mobile and flushed out easily. Fabric pots will filter it in. If you’re testing your waste, that could effect it.

Potassium is easily leached from wood ashes by a quick soak. Though it can be somewhat imprecise.

Odd gypsum testing that low. It should be neutral.

h.h. said:

Sulfur is pretty mobile and flushed out easily. Fabric pots will filter it in. If you’re testing your waste, that could effect it.

Potassium is easily leached from wood ashes by a quick soak. Though it can be somewhat imprecise.

Odd gypsum testing that low. It should be neutral.

Click to expand...

It's possible it's affected by the pelletizing/granulating process. I've had 'dolo-pril' before (prilled dolomite) that tested at an 8 (alkaline), rather than the neutral that I've seen in my preferred dolomite. Another bag/item I donated to others at the dumpster transfer site re-use platform. Like the steamed bone meal that was deficient in P.

The same brand of -preferred- dolomite I'd been using, apparently changed sourcing, and went from what was clearly a solid 7 (NICE!!) to coloring there's no chart for.. a weird metallic blue. Huh??!!

That's been a major problem over the years, in my estimation. The growth of the organic amendments 'industry,' leading to more frequent changes in sourcing, even within the same company/label, leading to less reliability in products, with measurable inconsistencies.

That nicely neutral dolomite I referenced remained consistent for close to a decade or more. Then it wasn't.

As I shared last year, my ^P bat guanos from a specific source I used for many years, and hardly use at all anymore (that brand), once upon a time, was a very different texture/consistency and performance in tea than the product they put out now. Their ^ N guano was far more active in tea, as well. Now, blah.

Lock onto something predictable, and think you're in the shade, and all's well again, and some company's source runs dry, changes to another mine/pit/cave, and at times, it can be 'back to the drawing board.'

For someone as OCD as I am, this may end up with me eventually saying 'screw it,' or acknowledging that I need to buy a testing lab, 'cause at $40 a pop for lab work, and trying to guesstimate WHICH of the amendments changed enough to be the unruly culprit, it gets tiring. Truly.

The whole 'truth in advertising/labeling,' ought to be better enforced, imo.

Thanks for the input h.h. Hope all's well with you.

My ph issues seem to have found resolution. Thanks all.

In a boisterous proving of his presence in my life, however, Murphy stepped in, and I discovered that the 0-13-0 bat shit I've had a stash of for a year or 2, is made by a company that is now out of business. And I've got enough left for 1-1/2 batches of soilless mix remaining.

So I engaged in a frantic effort to locate -something- today, in the way of bat poo with a good solid rep similar to that of the previous.

"Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone. They paved Paradise, and they put up a parking lot." (Joni Mitchell.... With help from.. Murphy...)

They tell me hurdles make a person stronger. I think they just leave me wishing for a larger chainsaw.

Bat shit crazy.

https://youtu.be/CUo9C1vUt0A


https://youtu.be/2ZWRPse9BZ8