ORGANIC VS INORGANIC. The great debate.

Look at me wasting time again!
WOWzers place jumps up like 10 pages in 2 days CLEARLY, someone has an issue..

Its deff not me. I actually understand the things I post, while other people pretend and lie and really have no clue

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Understanding Cultivar-Specificity and Soil Determinants of the Cannabis Microbiome[/FONT]

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For instance, this goes against every idea/concept/theory of "living organic soil"... FFS different population groups do better with different microbes!!!

Thats not a good thing...

Did you read the abstract of the article? Or did you just google "cannabis" plus "microbes" and some crap. ffs lol. This is hilarious.

But I know you los guys might think it is a good thing, or supports your pseudoscience ideas, or anything at all. But this is what I mean when I say mish mashing concepts, misunderstanding concepts and principles in science and how things work, other precepts and practices of farming and horticulture and the science behind it, and so on and so forth.....

Some of you people act like microbes magically make something better, like you are getting 110% of a plant's potential by using microbes. No, they only help you a tiny percent along, in your "organic" slow release soil, which will only ever to perhaps 70%, you'll get to maybe 73%, whereas feeding normally and being a good horticulturalist using all the tricks you'll actually get to 98-100% with or without microbes.
NE ways... omg...


More resources for people who want to drink water, not kool aid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60n9GSYTvsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkNAKXMDFsg

This guy is really great, and knows his stuff, I wish they'd just post the unedited talk..

And ya'll should be watching those videos, going to the links I post you, and listening to what I have been saying

Weird said:

Living organic soil (I run my plants in different temperature ranges depending on many variables) and my LOS gardens run temperate

View Image

same but fed bottles in the same temperature room

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BOTTLE FED FOR THE WIN... Nice!

Anyone else? Agree? No??? I mean come on guys.

Look at the yield, the bottom nugs compared to other pics, the overall.
I mean, clearly.

It all looks good, but hell man, you didn't want to bias your test because jesus. We have the winner.

ok. now I'll come to another thing...

Here's the problem with your test weird... Bubblegum is a notoriously difficult to grow, finicky plant that can vary side by side in grows unless you selected from seed for something that simply doesn't have that problem (ie. an efficient feeder vs a heavy feeder). She's a heavy feeder and if has one or lacks another nutrient will get, well, all the colors you are getting, (ie. what you're calling "phenotypes"... um, those aren't phenotypes, its environmental variation, and yeah, its uh, thats from nutrients, something going on in the media, or something else in the environment. The other ones getting super purple, which all of those I'm guessing are the same clone.. Hmm. I've seen your purpling gum before, I'm guessing thats from temps since it doesn't look like any other typical deficiency that can occur with gum, though I know the Indiana gum gets more purpley than subsequent gums...

You probably also get plants that are often super gummy, and some not so much. You'll probably never say that and say it's always gummy, but I know gum she's finicky and a pain and a hog and not easy. It takes skill to grow her right and keep her.


Which.. no ones saying you're a bad grower weird. You just don't know what your talking about and why what you are doing, works. So you say some stuff that might be kinda right but is really just. Yeah. And a lotta people do that it's okay. I do it sometimes

But fuckin! You can't.. F'n f'n can't. Pull out gum in a test like this. OMG are you kidding me?? Now you know you have a problem on your hands man. Comeon, you know that girl will do different things if you just do nothing and think you did it all the same every time. That's pretty much the worst tester of tests you could bring out. You blow on her she'll do something different.

What gum is great at showing, is how someone can have all sorts of environmental variability with plants essentially side by side and grown and fed the same way. You grow those plants under a CMH vs a HPS and you'll see a huge difference.

But yeah, you're tests prove what I've been saying, you add more nutes, you'll increase your yield and resin production. This is what all the studies show. This is text book at this point.

HEY! It's like what I have been saying all along feed yer pants kiddies

if you think color and biomass dictate teh quality of secondary metabolites you have proven the "value of your expertise"

to compound this you claim one of the easiest and most fool proof cultivars is "hard to grow"

all you have to do is show that you can do the same with anything in your hands so we can at least know we have had parallel experiences

here are some more "abnormalities"

20 oz using in 5 gallon homer only organic teas in 95 + degree temps indoor no gas




just like 3/4 plants in homers using transitional is no big deal got tons of pics like this if you want to see them




I also have posted grows with one week veg 8 week flower that land at a gpw of nugget that sells side by side with piff

even had some aeroponics grow in the late 90s doing 3 per 1000 no big deal show up on OG .. no big deal but no stranger to hydro

same genetics I cultivated from bag seed that you see in the top picture except it was done in 9 weeks

now why don't you show me all the same so at least we can talk apples to apples

as far as your bullshit scientific argument there is 1000 dollars reward to let a scientists as an accredited agricultural university extension to support my statement or condemn it

1000 dollars to your 100, your not afraid you will lose 100 dollars, are you?

or perhaps you have something constructive to show at least the difference

mushroom dude has a 3# per 1000 hydro grow that set his expectations that he had no qualms showing

Having grown the same streaming type of nugs in the hydro I personally have preferences against growing like that but since they are personal I won't judge his excellent results against my preferences because it isn't appropriate

it is not a pissing contest is is meant to open eyes

why anyone who can't grow a cut like bubble gum would want to stat a pissing match with someone who can in any medium/methodology instead of asking how did you do that is just proof of ego beyond benefit

at the end of the day when i turn of the computer I have my plants to go to

nothing anyone says will change the fact that I don't seem to have the same hurdles as others in getting these types of results

as someone who suffers from mental illness so debilitating that I can hardly function most days if you knew how little work I put into an of these grows you would probably be ashamed of your own efforts

I am not bragging but rather just illustrating how much these plants can do with minimal effort and monies if you abandon the delusions you built in your head regarding growing and that a failure to get to achieve the same means a facet of defective ego

but hey attack MY character because it is the easiest way for you to cope with it

Indoors...balanced mineral salt feeding all the way. Outdoors is where an organic built and worked soil shines for me. Ive been growing a very long time. Almost 30 years. And I did the organic living soil thing indoors for a few of them. Not anymore. I found it redundant to have organic inputs with artificial everything else. If growers know how to feed mineral salts to plants and pay attention to the little things...the 2 arent that different. Plus its alot more work for me and doesnt quite yield the same. Close but not the same. Now during the outside season...no question. A rich living soil that I work on with teas and top dressed goodies...goes together with outdoor like peanut butter and jelly. You got time and space outdoors for a living soil. But inside..its so damn fast. The crops. The wham bam my electric bill is on the line. Churn and burn. Organic soils were (the right way) to me always like hitting a speed bump doing 75mph indoors. But thats just me and my ways I figured over time on my own. The whole taste and smell difference is subjective really. Mineral salt nutrition done right...compared to a worked living soil done right...to me its not the huge dramatic night and day some make it out to be. I got grow pals that will not touch a mineral salt for thier crops indoors or out. Got others that are directly opposite. Its all subjective really. And the argument is kinda old and dusty and doesnt mean much anymore. Its like the handgun crowd with the age old .45 acp vs. 9mm debate to me. Lol.

i grow living soil indoors and find the differential impressive but I had to make some adjustments because techniques from other methods don't translate well in living soil but I don't artificially regulate my rooms like most people

find it counter intuitive to results

The posts on this thread were really good. Yall argue in a respectable fashion compared to the other forums. And some juicy reading on all parties parts. I like icmag. Alot more "pros" and real veterans on here than the others. Yall take care. And whatever you do...grow the best cannabis you possibly can and alot of it I say.

I can get the most flower per sqft/year with IO period. Please don't argue with me on yields per sqft per year. Hydroponics produces bigger yields in most all plant species.

And there will always be those who say the quality must be lower at those weights.

Whatever you have to say to yourself to sleep better at night... But could not be further from the truth.

The yield AND quality is exceptional. Wait till you see my OG room in a couple months.

I do not use conventional feeding. I blend my own nutes.

But I still am open minded enough to do a side by side with LOS. I am excited to try it again. And I am blessed to have space to do so. Really blessed. This is the nicest space I have had the pleasure to grow in.

I am grateful for what I have. That is a good place to be gents.

Oh by the way the 5G/Gallon Glutamine plant is dying.

The 1G/Gallon is winning. Will get some pics up soon.

mushroombrew said:

Oh by the way the 5G/Gallon Glutamine plant is dying.

The 1G/Gallon is winning. Will get some pics up soon.

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Isnt glutamine an amino acid calcium chelator???

Root space is way more important with o. If you wanna make it close do a bed 8x4x1.5 and balance that living soil slownickel style.

Otherwise this will be a self fulfilling excercise for you

mushroombrew said:

I can get the most flower per sqft/year with IO period. Please don't argue with me on yields per sqft per year. Hydroponics produces bigger yields in most all plant species.

And there will always be those who say the quality must be lower at those weights.

Whatever you have to say to yourself to sleep better at night... But could not be further from the truth.

The yield AND quality is exceptional. Wait till you see my OG room in a couple months.

I do not use conventional feeding. I blend my own nutes.

But I still am open minded enough to do a side by side with LOS. I am excited to try it again. And I am blessed to have space to do so. Really blessed. This is the nicest space I have had the pleasure to grow in.

I am grateful for what I have. That is a good place to be gents.

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if it was the same you wouldn't be exploring organics for head stash so please stop with the bullshit

if you can't produce the same biomass with organics indoors it is on your application of the methodologies

I know you don't want to believe that but if you had mastery of LOS indoors you wouldn't be asking how to do it

don't let your ego stop you know you where cool up until this point

I have called out far greater and proven personalities for growing shitty meds based on their egotistic emotional reactions

proper meds that doesn't happen

then again most people grow for money not for medicinal need so they never really understand the depth of how medicine works from a personal perspective and it translates to their work

but hey if you need pics I got them too

`

biomass & resin matrix

at least 8 recycles in the same 10 gallon pots in a room without humidity or temp control

topdressing in amendments that are costing me cents per pound

my costs are still pennies on the dollar and that is if I go buck wild

no chems no toxins just nature

LOL, I feel sorry for Mush...his thread has "weirded out" and about shit that has nothing to do with the original topic. Oh well, live and let learn.

here is what people don't understand about living soil and plants like cannabis

microbiology has evolved to balanced the imbalanced and to maximize the energy utilized from resource and the plants have evolved to express best in an environment with that microbiological diversity

everything that goes into living soil will bias it to a point and if you want to preserve the microbiological integrity you need to eliminate that bias through a minimal of materials because they can effect pockets of the soils micro environments and thus the microbiological balance

if your recycling you are best served allowing those microbes to cycle as they would on a seasonal basis albeit the basis can be far more brief

most people try to control living soil as if control allows for better performance

the closer you get to a perfect mineral profile in one step the more stress you put on that microbiological population to diversify in task and composition

the plants didn't evolve to express naturally even under those conditions

but everyone has this defective notion about nature that there is a perfect static formula for dynamic biological reactions

if people stopped hedging bets and letting nature fill the gap they would have better success

even mushroom dude said it because it even matters in hydro, less is more

low N ALONE is a beneficial stress factor in cultivation but most people are afraid to ride that edge for lack of biomass and I am SURE mushroom dude (no disrespect to name its all i remember during this mind dump) would attribute it as a edge to his success

this same dynamic is how mike metnzer won mr universe working out 45 minutes a day

by knowing how to exploit positive stress (e.g. underfeed) and eliminate negative stress (e.g. burn) is how you max output

add diversity to these cues in a positive manner you get diversity in cultivar expression

add them in a negative manner you get absolute collapse and failure

add a little of both and you get meh

DocTim420 said:

LOL, I feel sorry for Mush...his thread has "weirded out" and about shit that has nothing to do with the original topic. Oh well, live and let learn.

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at least I am showing people the basis of the opinion I formed in my own garden

do the same and you can at least be contributing to communal knowledge for a benefit

I know that it is beyond your capacity thus the rep turned off and all talk no show

:: slow clap

@ Weird

Ego? Bro you have no idea. I posted a link to my biomass. You filled up this thread with pages of pics...
Ok enough about ego there is no room for it here.

Like I said I doubt LOS will be better quality then my IO. I also said I hope LOS "wins". Who wouldnt want better headstash. I would be a fool to refute you without trying your methods.

But I am humble enough to find out and accept the outcome either way. Most just think they are the best without trying other things.

I personally don't mind your input. You are doing something you believe in. And it appears to work.

This is not a black and white issue. And I am here to improve.

So by chance my buddy just dropped in with a sample of the pheno I just chopped. He ran it in 2 gallons pot of O.

The terpenes are quite different. More of some less of others. No way to choose a better bud on smell alone.

We both agreed that the IO is more potent. But I do not consider him a talented grower.
And therefore it is inconclusive as per usual!

But the terp profiles were really interesting. I completely forgot I gave him a cut! So cool!

mushroombrew said:

@ Weird

Ego? Bro you have no idea. I posted a link to my biomass. You filled up this thread with pages of pics...
Ok enough about ego there is no room for it here.

Like I said I doubt LOS will be better quality then my IO. I also said I hope LOS "wins". Who wouldnt want better headstash. I would be a fool to refute you without trying your methods.

But I am humble enough to find out and accept the outcome either way. Most just think they are the best without trying other things.

I personally don't mind your input. You are doing something you believe in. And it appears to work.

This is not a black and white issue. And I am here to improve.

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I never said LOS wins potency or is "BEST"

I am say unless you feel like you can get like results using all methods all other environments equal how will you really know what works best in it

the whole point is lost on the fact that people think it is a contest or a VS in the first place

it is about context and relativity it always has been

if some one asked me to build a sustainable garden in a urban areas far removed from farms I would consider aquaponic or some other method that brings best of local sustainable inputs to the best possible results

if I was so stuck on any one method I would sound like everyone who argues with me

im not trying to sell you on your own perception just telling you not to buy into your own self imposed beliefs limit the methodology various at hand

maybe being so sure about something your not sure about is a start

the fact is that many cultivars can so so many different aspects under different conditions if the pissing matches didn't exists we might be able to figure them out enough to make them more predictable

or we can wait for science to figure it out and charge a gross amount of money for it in a package

traditionally there was no market support for pot so the whole notion is a bit foolish considering pot pushed the edge of horticulture without being legal so throttling it to that level of belief pushes everyone's shit it

I find it interesting that you do not control temp/humidity. It would be impossible here as we range from 103F to -12F!. Without environmental controls my plants would not make it very long at all.

Is you ambient environment more conducive?