pH Control of Organic Soil - not to be sniffed at

Dear friends,

I am a newbie here and have been growing for couple years now.
Luckily I had some really awesome runs and friends admired my weed, but at the moment its hard to reproduce that quality.

Since I moved to another flat I have some problems obviously related to the pH of the tap water.
In the area I live the tap water has high bicarbonate concentration and we officially have "hard water".

When I start with seeds, everything goes fine for the first 6-7 weeks (organic soil).
But then the growth stagnates somehow.
I measured the drainage from soil which i used for couple months and the pH was over 8.
at the beginning its something under 7.
I dont give no fertilizers (chemical) und just water the soil with tap water.
Had different runs with different soils. But always the same problems.

Of course I know that organic soil buffers the pH really good but every soil has a limited buffering ability.
So I read a little about soil sience.
Roots produce acids themselves depending on which ions are set in the soil. If anyone's interested i can try to go further a bit.
However, if you steadily use water with low bicarbonate the soil will tend to get more sour. If you use high bicarbonate water, the soil will get alkaline.
If you have a certain concentration of bicarbonate in the water, the soil is able to keep a constant pH for a long time. I guess that might be the right way?

pH can also be influenced by feeding the plant with nitrogen in the water.
Also the pH buffering depends on the EC.

All in all pH is a very complex thing to understand.
Thats why I disagree with people saying "throw away your pH meter when growing organic".
Maybe if you live in an area with "good" water you might never have problems.
But for people like me - we have to deal with it.
And if we deal right we might learn a lot in terms of plant/soil science...

Anyone has similar experience and answers to their probs?

I am really curious....

Thanks in advance for any constructive contribution.


PEACE!
OrcanicLuv

What is the PH out the tap, you only mention the run off?

If you use reverse osmosis water that should solve your problem!

organic soil can only give so much to the plant, especially in small containers for 6-7 weeks

just might have nothing to do with PH and more about the plants needing transplant.
when i keep plants in smallish containers (of organic soil) i need to topdress regularly to keep them happy

I've gone through what you've experienced. Once I got my soil mix right i stopped P.H.ing my water. You need the right Carbon to Nitrogen Ratio as well as heavily aerated soil, lots of different types of rocks in different sizes work best, perlite is ok, but has some downsides if used or stored outside where it just blows away or if used in a mixing machine it is just smashed to dust. Lava rock, pumice stone, expanded clay, expanded glass, ect are awesome for good soil. caclium is hugely important, i use oyster and crab shells. Oyster already has phosphoric acids locked up inside it=) crab is awesome long term nutes as well. Using fish products and molasses can help your P.H. issues by feeding the micro beasts and helping break down the organic matter in your soil. Do you filter your water at all? Always run it through at least a good carbon filter, chlorine and other stuff actually works against your micro heard. So either start figuring out your soil mix or start P.H.ing your water down to 6.5-7 depending of what you observe. I don't use meters I watch my plants smell the soil, ect. Not to say i haven't used meters in the past, but Since i'm not a scientist i just started to understand the concepts and work by feel.

I never agreed with the old "throw away the ph" pen saying, we'll infact I think a soil tester is important to own to if you plan on making your own soil.

I get that organic soil buffers ph to a certain extent but I think where most of this religious notion cones from is some people are just lucky. Like their water ph is right on point and their soil happens to be a good ph too.

I have run into problems after many years of organic growing that the only viable answer was ph lockout, now what caused that lock out is a whIle other ball of wax. But I feel over time doing soil recycling you end up with a build up of minerals and salts which sometimes to not play well with others. This can create uninhabitable environments for roots.

I feel this sort of system works best outdoors where the rain can leach the soil of things that don't belong there, where as in a container with limited run off they have a tendency to stick around.

Olove,

As you can see a lot of different answers for the same question.

In organic soils with a high pH, you will have loads of problems. With high bicarbonates you are going to have big problems as it will suck up all your calcium. That is what bicarbonates do, they hit your soil and immediately pair up with calcium to make calcium carbonate, which in turn drives your pH up. There will be no Mn uptake, which alone will be a disaster as you can't convert sugars.

The answer is gypsum. If the bicarbonates want the calcium, let them have it. Just keep making light applications of gypsum to your soil. To figure out how much really requires a lab soil analysis.

You can also spike gypsum by driving a stake or metal rod into the soil and moving it around to make a funnel like indentation and filling it with gypsum and worm castings (something well decomposed).

You would make two or three stakes as deep as possible per plant and put in 20 to 50 grams or so of gypsum each hole, depending on the size of the bag etc..

You can also treat your water. Throw gypsum in the water, mix well and let it sit. A lot of carbonate will fall out.

Try it and see what happens. In the meantime, go the slow nickel lounge and read up. Note the recipe for the Korean fruit enzymes that you can make at home. In the meantime flush with some citric acid, try to lower your pH less than 0.5 at a time. Do not go more. Regardless of what the pH is, which we would all like to know....

Natural balance of pH in soil is dependent on the soil being alive and living soil is to a degree volume dependent. pH is balanced over time by an interaction of the organic acids secreted (exudated) by the roots, bacteria, archaea and fungi.

This balance does not just automatically occur if using a certain mix of ingredients which someone labeled organic. The roots of plants in natural growing are not just sponges soaking up certain nutrients because the pH is correct. They are active participants (as you have stated) in the process.

As Slow has stated trying to correct your soil pH is not practical but if you have water which suffers from high alkalinity and not just high pH then you might be advantaged by adding citric acid to your water, also mentioned by Slow. Here is an educational link; https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floriculture/fact-sheets/water-quality-ph-alkalinity (hope this is okay)

Testing your outflow from your containers is not very accurate. I previously posted several methods of testing pH.

Citric acid is one of the many organic acids naturally secreted by roots and microbes. Verdant (a member) has posted good information on high alkalinity and citric acid in the forum.

In very general terms, bacteria trend towards alkaline and fungi towards acidic. Once there is a growing interconnection between plant and microbes going on, with the necessary diversity and amount of organic matter, minerals, porosity and moisture then a balanced pH can be established. (as stated also volume dependent).

Test your water out of the tap and then again if you need to add citric acid.

I am a organic grower and I have indeed stopped checking my pH.
My soil or my water. I do recycle.
First off I use rain water that i collect into a barrel and keep fresh with a air pump.
Many municipalities now use chloramine instead of chlorine in the tap water which are harder to get rid of and is harmful to both soil bacteria and fungi which winds up retarding plant growth.
I let the plant conduct it's own symphony.
Plants as well as the micro-organisms release organic acids and hydrogen ions.
This makes the localized environment more acidic.
So your water could be retarding this symbiosis.
I opine if your medium is correctly balanced with proper amounts of Calcium 60-70% and Mg.@10-15% of your base saturation rate the mediums pH will balance itself out to a ideal 6.2-6.4 pH.
Another tip is that the higher a soils CEC the harder it becomes to change the pH.
One more thought is using top dressing that promote some pH diving.

Wicked pH divers
Blood meal,bird guano's, fish emulsion and earth juice.

pH divers
most all meals except bone meal promote some pH diving as well as Alfalfa, Coffee, Worm castings, bat guano's, all manures, Molasses and Fulvic acid.

You said it yourself things were going good and then you moved so a environmental issue for sure.
Ratz

Go no-till and don't worry about pH.

Also, as Moses said, either go RO or Distilled.

Good luck!
Tri_Cho_Me

Thanks a lot guys for all the thoughts!

My tap water has something around 7.3-7.4
But like in Microbeman's link described, the alkalinity and the pH of the water are two different things, i guess.
I have a RO but started to use it as the problems were there already.
It changed nothing. I thought I had to get rid of all the carbonate saved in the soil.
So I used to use vinegar in the water and flushed a lot.
At a certain point the plants started to grow again.
But when I kept using vinegar and flushing the plants immediately stopped to grow again.
Then I found out that I just flushed too much so that the drainage water had an EC of 0.3
So I mulched with pure worm castings and only used RO water with a little bit of vinegar (pH 7.0). But it didn't work out.
The plants didn't grow and the stems turned dark lilac.
Then I cut the roots and put the plants into new soil while cutting leaves also.
Now I have been waiting for couple days but nothing happened yet.
I want to wait a bit more because the roots need some time to get back on the path.

Somehow I got the feel that through the risen pH the plants suffered toxication.
Does anyone know, if these toxicated plants can return to healthy ones?
I try hard to do that but yet without success.
I don't care about the plants. I can get new seeds.
But what I want to achieve is to learn about the process and to deal with it.
Maybe I waste time and I sould take new seeds and listen to what you guys said.

I definately want to check out RO right from the beginning when the seeds are put into the soil
-> what proportion do you mix?
My tap water has EC 0.6 and when I mix 50/50 I get 0.4
When I throw in 2 drops of vinegar the pH turns exactly 7.0
but I got the feel that I dont need the vinegar cause the alkalinity is already lowered enough when using 50% RO.

I already ordered 10 regular seeds of a cheap but good sativa strain (to do experiments).
First I wanna use 5 of them.
I wanna use 2 different soils to make sure there is no problem with the soil (of course I will use good soil for seedlings)
Then I want to use different water for each seeds.
I will follow your advises and use

1. RO water (50/50)
2. citric acid (how do I know the right amount?)
3. I also like the idea of gypsum by slownickel but I really dont know how to deal with it, so I guess I will wait with that.
4. I Also respect the idea of heavily aerated soil by truck,
but I just had too many successful runs with seeds before so that I think the soil I use (bought ones) will be good enough (perlite is integrated).
5. I will definately check out the posts about citric acid by Verdant. Thanks for the hint.
6. And also thanks to slownickel for the hint to lower your pH less than 0.5 at a time. I've heard of that and it makes sence.
Changing pH too fast will kill life in soil.
What do you mean with korean fruit enzymes?
you mean fermented veg?

correction:

"...only used RO water with a little bit of vinegar (pH 7.0)"
-> I used RO water 50/50 and not pure RO!

@Microbeman:
Can you send me a link to Verdant's posts?
Just couldn't find any through using advanced search...

I use phosphoric acid for my pH reducing. They sell it at grow shops and online.
With my local tap water I can add 2 or 3 drops per 2L and have the pH drop to
the pH 6.2-6.6 range.

Once you test your local water you won't have to test too often.

OrganicLuv said:

@Microbeman:
Can you send me a link to Verdant's posts?
Just couldn't find any through using advanced search...

Click to expand...

I found some with a search for citric acid but the search shut down for 'high alkalinity'. You could try some more. You will find some discussion between VerdantGreen and myself where it appears to him that I am disagreeing, however I believe he was missing my point that this does not adjust the pH of the soil when employing living soil - natural growing. I was not quarreling with the effects to the water and the attributes of citric acid. [in fact the statements from spurr arose from offline discussions between spurr & I] There is such a diversity of organic acids secreted by roots and microbes that it is too difficult to tie the power [or potential] of hydrogen (pH) and subsequent exchange of cations to one compound.
[IMO of course]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5740284&highlight=citric+acid#post5740284

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5844290&highlight=citric+acid#post5844290

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5845366&highlight=citric+acid#post5845366

Microbeman said:

I found some with a search for citric acid but the search shut down for 'high alkalinity'. You could try some more. You will find some discussion between VerdantGreen and myself where it appears to him that I am disagreeing, however I believe he was missing my point that this does not adjust the pH of the soil when employing living soil - natural growing. I was not quarreling with the effects to the water and the attributes of citric acid. [in fact the statements from spurr arose from offline discussions between spurr & I] There is such a diversity of organic acids secreted by roots and microbes that it is too difficult to tie the power [or potential] of hydrogen (pH) and subsequent exchange of cations to one compound.
[IMO of course]

Click to expand...

Microbe,

The idea of lowering the pH, most especially in media soils, is to get Mn availability. This can be done one or twice a week and it suffices.

The main reason that roots stop exuding amino acids is when the plant can no longer manufacture reductase enzymes. High nitrates that can come from compost, worm castings, teas, or even applied nitrates tie up Mn. Sucrose synthase is a Mn dependent enzyme. Without which, you can not convert reducing sugars such as glucose or fructose to sucrose.

Plants use more than 15% of all glucose produced by the leaf is used to convert nitrates to aminos.

High OM and any pH above 6.3 or so, blocks Mn uptake assuming that it is in a balanced quantity against Fe.

Most growers on these boards saw great response to balancing not only their calcium levels but also applying the missing metals. Interestingly enough, in the 20 plus countries where I work, nearly all growers need Mn. Not because there wasn't any. But due to the excess of Fe.

Most problems are not due to deficiencies, most are due to excesses. For this reason, buffering the situation with good OM works.

Fixing all the problems even works better.

Here are some photos of my Organic farms that out produce in size, yields and quality any conventional grower out there. The oldest trees on the bottom are barely three years in the ground and one year in the green house.

https://goo.gl/1U92jS

Just because someone is organic does not mean that they have to ignore science.

Just because someone is organic does not mean that they have to ignore science.

Click to expand...

I can certainly agree with that. To me this means all science and does not look at soil as something which props up a plant and the plant as a sponge to suck up nutrients given the correct chemical components in solution.

I am not really arguing with you, you know. What you quoted was a brief explanation given to clarify a prior discussion. If you wish to revisit this, you would need to go back through my hypothesis and citations.

Slow; Just a thought; You aren't confusing organic acids and amino acids by chance?

Microbeman said:

Slow; Just a thought; You aren't confusing organic acids and amino acids by chance?

Click to expand...

Are you referring to my comments about root exudates or the use of the glucose in the leaves to make amino acids?

In both cases, the correct term as used is amino acid, which would be included in "organic acids" no? The term organic acid is a real broad paint brush.

Here is an unofficial document that I cut and pasted from a post by Graeme Sait interviewing Dr. Don Huber. Pretty sure you will find it interesting.

I was referring to root and microbial excretions. Amino acids and organic acids are 2 different things. (in my world anyway)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3844170/
http://www.bashanfoundation.org/borriss/borrissexudation.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._in_soils_-_Misconceptions_and_knowledge_gaps

Microbeman said:

I was referring to root and microbial excretions. Amino acids and organic acids are 2 different things. (in my world anyway)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3844170/
http://www.bashanfoundation.org/borriss/borrissexudation.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._in_soils_-_Misconceptions_and_knowledge_gaps

Click to expand...

All amino acids have at least carboxyl group which renders it partly acidic. It's the amino (NH2) group on the molecule that renders
the amino acid partly basic. Some amino acids like glutamic acid have 2 carboxylic acid group and only one amino group. Therefore,
it's an acidic amino acid. Whereas some amino acid have 2 of more amino group and one carboxylic acid group like the amino acid
lysine and this one is a basic amino acid because of the multiple amino groups

Acetic acid the main ingredient other than water in vinegar has only one carboxylic acid group.
Citric acid on the other hand has 3 carboxylic acid groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboxylic_acid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid

Simpler life forms like bacteria can convert either one into the other.