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? - S1 Males - ?

bioguy

Member
All female seeds are made by selfing a female.

Can a male be selfed to make all male seeds?

A male can be forced into female to determine its female potential (I just leaned this)...what happens if it is then selfed?

This might allow excellent breeding stock to be exchanged or help to get "clone only male seeds" to maintain clone only lines...maybe?

Any thoughts other than fear of hermmies???
 

drgr33nuk

Member
short answer no. Female plants produce female seeds off female pollen due to the fact that they only contain X chromosomes. Males have an X and Y so the pollen produces both.

also males don't have the right reproductive parts lol

although a homosexual male plant would be fabulous darlings haha
 

Adze

Member
I believe, if you do a bit of research you’ll find that:

Actually, if you use ethylene to reverse a male you'll be able to make seed. They will not be 100% male, the XY contribution of the male will make 25% XX, 50% XY, and 25%YY. The YY will likely be sterile or not make a seed. This does not address the expression of inter-sexed plants, as we know cannabis has a relatively flexible response to different environments/conditions, so is not entirely governed by XX/XY genes.

I have not done this myself; I am just relating information I read from IMHO the most reliable of the contributors here.
 

stickshift

Active member
only way for them to be a XY male line is to use "YY" and "XX" as the parents, problem will be getting the viable "YY" and confirmation it is "YY", though I imagine that will be easy enough.. if you can confirm those "YY"s self them.... failing that discard all females from the seed lot 75% are all male in both XY and YY types... I think Chimera stated he has been holding and using all male type lines from selfing since 2004.
 

bioguy

Member
I believe, if you do a bit of research you’ll find that:

Actually, if you use ethylene to reverse a male you'll be able to make seed. They will not be 100% male, the XY contribution of the male will make 25% XX, 50% XY, and 25%YY. The YY will likely be sterile or not make a seed. This does not address the expression of inter-sexed plants, as we know cannabis has a relatively flexible response to different environments/conditions, so is not entirely governed by XX/XY genes.

I have not done this myself; I am just relating information I read from IMHO the most reliable of the contributors here.

Very cool. I guess I knew that about XY but did not add up the consequences.

I think this means it can not be used to preserve a female clone only but might help preserve some of the excellent males being held by breeders. In fact, since it would yield females too it might be perfect.

For instance if the Paki/Lemon Thai (Putz secret ingredient) was available as a male seed line with Female's in it, I'd buy them. I was thinking I'd buy them even if they were all male! This is better :)

Thanks...I agree "IMHO the most reliable of the contributors here" lots of knowledge here LOTS
 

drgr33nuk

Member
Can a plant have YY Chromosome? I know its impossible in humans due to critical functions of the X chromosome but don't know if its possible in diocese plants ?
 

drgr33nuk

Member
Also what sex would something be as YY neither male or female i suspect that the same critical functions apply to plants too.
 

bioguy

Member
only way for them to be a XY male line is to use "YY" and "XX" as the parents, problem will be getting the viable "YY" and confirmation it is "YY", though I imagine that will be easy enough.. if you can confirm those "YY"s self them.... failing that discard all females from the seed lot 75% are all male in both XY and YY types... I think Chimera stated he has been holding and using all male type lines from selfing since 2004.

Very cool too! Every time I have a good idea that I think is original I find the pros beat me to it by a decade or so.

I'm not following what you mean by YY. Can you elaborate?

Male = XY and Female = XX But IDK what ??? = YY

I always thought they were sterile...like mentioned

I also think this comment from another thread is correct like Adze mentioned.

It is a lot more complicated than that....

ya know the old Biology lesson that XX= Female and XY= Male....?
Well-- in cannabis and a few other plants-- they "Up the stakes"...
XXY is a male that can hermie easily, where XXy is a Male that can be forced to hermie- but is harder to do...
XX= a True Female, but few are true females.... and those can only be hermied by chemicals...
XXY can hermie easily, XXy Can be forced to hermie...
XXYY is a Genetic hermie from the get-go... and there are more combinations!!!

Most "Female" plants are the XXy's... will grow and flower as females unless they are severely and repeatedly stressed... some are the XXY's... but they don't hermie unless stressed, or if left flowering too long after a longer than normal veg period.
 

bioguy

Member
I have racked my brain on this one the only benefit I see is preserving a "known keeper male" when no female exists (which is pretty rare).

Or

Maybe... If a male is found in a fem line. But I suspect those males might just be intersex dominant herrmies. IDK? Someone else asked about using males from fem lines and everyone said it was risky (including me). At minimum its uncharted waters.

or Maybe, just maybe it could be used to breed a seed line specifically for breeding stock. That is inbreed or cross males that have proven their worth in breeding projects. This might yield male lines that more reliably pass on their traits.

Am I missing another use
 

stickshift

Active member
I have racked my brain on this one the only benefit I see is preserving a "known keeper male" when no female exists (which is pretty rare).

Or

Maybe... If a male is found in a fem line. But I suspect those males might just be intersex dominant herrmies. IDK? Someone else asked about using males from fem lines and everyone said it was risky (including me). At minimum its uncharted waters.

or Maybe, just maybe it could be used to breed a seed line specifically for breeding stock. That is inbreed or cross males that have proven their worth in breeding projects. This might yield male lines that more reliably pass on their traits.

Am I missing another use

The males shown in a "fem" line are most likely XX plants just showing as "males" as they have a low threshold for expressing as such. my guess is you will see more of the same or more females but no actual XY type males.

The use would be knowing you have actual males.

The YY is the so called super male, I presume you have read the thread from SamS on transforming males to females?.. I don't know that the YY chromosomal is present in cannabis.. and if it's not, we'd then know that Y would be degrading due to the fact it's outnumbered by the X, and thus would probably be the smaller chromosome, yet in cannabis the Y has been found to be the bigger...

so if you got a proven XY male and got it to self, I see no reason why you couldn't get the YY, but still you'd have proven 50% XY types if the YY isn't viable in the vault for the future.
 

Hrpuffnkush

Golden Coast
Veteran
Feminised males

Monoecious species, each individual has reproductive units that are merely female and reproductive units that are merely male. The name derives from Greek "monos" (one) and ecos "home" Individuals bearing separate flowers of both sexes at the same time are called simultaneously or synchronously monoecious. Individuals that bear flowers of one sex at one time are called consecutively monoecious; plants may first have single sexed flowers and then later have flowers of the other sex.

Isolated populations of cannabis will become monoecious in response to environmental pressures. These monoecious plants have the ability to self fertilise in the absence of fully male plants, to produce offspring that are genetically identical to the parent.

One way to achieve this result involves crossing monoecious plants with dioecious to achieve increasingly monoecious results, while still retaining the desirable qualities of the dioecious parent.*
 

bioguy

Member
The males shown in a "fem" line are most likely XX plants just showing as "males" as they have a low threshold for expressing as such. my guess is you will see more of the same or more females but no actual XY type males.

The use would be knowing you have actual males.

The YY is the so called super male, I presume you have read the thread from SamS on transforming males to females?.. I don't know that the YY chromosomal is present in cannabis.. and if it's not, we'd then know that Y would be degrading due to the fact it's outnumbered by the X, and thus would probably be the smaller chromosome, yet in cannabis the Y has been found to be the bigger...

so if you got a proven XY male and got it to self, I see no reason why you couldn't get the YY, but still you'd have proven 50% XY types if the YY isn't viable in the vault for the future.

Yes, I read it and thats where the idea came from. He recommended this for a wannabe breeder like myself to find better males in small samples. Then I remember how many times I have wished I had access to the legendary males that have reshaped cannabis.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the selfing will yield YY super males and even if they don't sprout (sterile) the S1 ratio's could confirm that the male was actually XY not an XX expressing male traits? Thats the other use.

Now if we can just convince some of the pros to do this so we can get some rare genetics.
.
 

bioguy

Member
Feminised males

Monoecious species, each individual has reproductive units that are merely female and reproductive units that are merely male. The name derives from Greek "monos" (one) and ecos "home" Individuals bearing separate flowers of both sexes at the same time are called simultaneously or synchronously monoecious. Individuals that bear flowers of one sex at one time are called consecutively monoecious; plants may first have single sexed flowers and then later have flowers of the other sex.

Isolated populations of cannabis will become monoecious in response to environmental pressures. These monoecious plants have the ability to self fertilise in the absence of fully male plants, to produce offspring that are genetically identical to the parent.

One way to achieve this result involves crossing monoecious plants with dioecious to achieve increasingly monoecious results, while still retaining the desirable qualities of the dioecious parent.*

Yes. But how does it help this situation. Finding populations of known dioecious and known monoecious plants would be even harder than what we are proposing. Virtually all cannabis is Dioecious, even the hermmies are only partially monoecious

And, your notion of "cannabis will become monoecious in response to environmental pressures" I'm not sure if you mean it will herrmie or evolve to not be dioecious (more accurately partially monoecious).

The theory it will evolve to be partially monoecious is an old theory. Botanists have recently discovered that partially monoecious cannabis is the result of cultivation for flowers (as opposed to hash).

When growing flowers, farmers kill as many males as they can find, then harvest seeds from the best female plant. Those seeds are highly likely to be from herrmies. They did this in Thailand for 3000 years and breed herrmies in an attempt to grow sensi (oh the irony).

Page 330 http://books.google.com/books?id=po...0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hashish seeds&f=false
 

Only Ornamental

Spiritually inspired agnostic mad scientist
Veteran
Just my :2cents:
...Finding populations of known dioecious and known monoecious plants would be even harder than what we are proposing. Virtually all cannabis is Dioecious, even the hermmies are only partially monoecious
...http://books.google.com/books?id=po...0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hashish seeds&f=false
There are many dioecious varieties of cannabis nowadays, only that they are called 'hemp' and are used for fibre and seed production LoL.
It seems as if the dioecious trait originated in Russia and was then extensively exploited by the Germans (somwhen in the '40 and '50, I think). THIS thread may give you an idea on the different hemp varieties.
But it'll be a pain in the a** to cross the dioecious trait into a drug variety without loosing too much of the original.
 

Hrpuffnkush

Golden Coast
Veteran
Yes. But how does it help this situation. Finding populations of known dioecious and known monoecious plants would be even harder than what we are proposing. Virtually all cannabis is Dioecious, even the hermmies are only partially monoecious

And, your notion of "cannabis will become monoecious in response to environmental pressures" I'm not sure if you mean it will herrmie or evolve to not be dioecious (more accurately partially monoecious).

The theory it will evolve to be partially monoecious is an old theory. Botanists have recently discovered that partially monoecious cannabis is the result of cultivation for flowers (as opposed to hash).


When growing flowers, farmers kill as many males as they can find, then harvest seeds from the best female plant. Those seeds are highly likely to be from herrmies. They did this in Thailand for 3000 years and breed herrmies in an attempt to grow sensi (oh the irony).

Page 330 http://books.google.com/books?id=po...0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hashish seeds&f=false



Easyyy Bioguy

How can this help this situation? if somebody gets a male from Fem's seeds this could help make sense of it...

its not my notion its Science...

How old is man and how old is cannabis? South east asians could care less about weed until vietnam war started and they found a market , that when your killer south east asian strains were made

Look into 28th parallel Many of your HIGHLY psychoactive strains came from parallel and had nothing to do with hemp! , and parallels dont care about hash production LOL

All psychoactive cannabis is Indica , True Sativas are hemp

Mother nature works in ways humans dont have all the answers for.,,
 
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