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Clone of a Clone of a... Degredation Experiment

jeffie

Member
I always argue this point, after seed you always, always always lose vigor, 50%, and every time you take a clone its 50% less, but after you take a clone of a clone... its only 50% of 50% of 50%, so the first clone is 50%, second 75%, third is 8?% and so on. I guess I'm not a scientist but that seems correct to me. If your continually taking new clones from the same mom that isn't a big deal, what makes it bad is when you turn a clone from the mom, into a mom, take a clone from the clone-mom, then turn that clone into a mom, I would have to imagine the bud would be getting slightly worse at the least every time.

its all the same after about 20 times here. according to your 50% math I should be at nearly zero long ago lol it just ain't happening. no loss in vigor/bud quality whatsoever here
 

kstampy

Member
My ogre pheno of sensi star is probably the 100th+ generation clone after 10+ years grown by my buddy and a few years by myself. It's still going strong! I only keep a mother for a few months then replace with a newer more healthy cutting for faster growth. Just to add the ogre has been through 10+ mite infestations and PM about 5 times. No degradation after bringing them back to health properly.
 
What if you don't bring them back to health properly?

What if you don't bring them back to health properly?

My ogre pheno of sensi star is probably the 100th+ generation clone after 10+ years grown by my buddy and a few years by myself. It's still going strong! I only keep a mother for a few months then replace with a newer more healthy cutting for faster growth. Just to add the ogre has been through 10+ mite infestations and PM about 5 times. No degradation after bringing them back to health properly.


Do you have any examples of people not bringing them back to health properly resulting in degradation ?
 
What happens if the Mom does not remain healthy?

What happens if the Mom does not remain healthy?

As long as the mom remains healthy, all is well. I'm willing to bet he and other folks did not keep mothers as healthy as they thought they were.

Looking forward to your experiment.

Do you have examples of mom's that did not remain healthy resulting in clone degradation?

and thanks for the interest in the experiment!
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Sorry I couldn't explain it any simpler. "Cloning" is on a cellular/tissue level in a sterile environment. "Cutting" is simply put, (no xerox, ok) taking a piece of a plant and getting it to grow roots. As I explained earlier, the mericloning process, NOT THE SAME!



New Oxford American Dictionary said:
clone |klōn|
noun Biology
a group of organisms or cells produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical.

cuttings are organisms which were produced from one ancestor, to which they are genetically identical.

They are cuttings, but they are also clones.
 
Is thier NO utility in the experiment?

Is thier NO utility in the experiment?

This test has been run for many years already by those of us right here in the community growing the same clone for sometimes well over 20 years. Clone of a clone of a clone ... doesnt change. Can you say TrainWreck.... just as example ... look how long this girl has been passed around :) I say the test is over the results are in

I do agree with you that there are clones that have been around forever I have an OG Kush that has been around forever and other strains as well.

As far as degradation goes I have not observed it but at the same time I never got to take a look at the Mom from seed to see if she was actually better than her clone counterpart.

Have you seen any of the mom's of the clones that have been around forever that you spoke of?

I know my Northern lights x Cinderella 99 was bomb when it was first grown from seed but the clone of it is average. I have ran her 8 times to try to recreate that first bling I saw. I have never come even close since.

Also my Really Good Dope x Blue Berry same thing as the N99 . It was an 8 from seed but now I would consider it a 6.

Has anyone else had an awesome seeded plant that turned into an average clone plant?
 
Seeded Plant vs. Cloned Counterpart

Seeded Plant vs. Cloned Counterpart

Would the experiment be more interesting if it was focused on investigating the difference between a seeded plant and its clone counterpart?

It could all be built into the same experiment:dance013:

Thanks for all the interest, everyone

:thank you:
 

Gooey

Member
I think an important point here is that people are the variable...we are not always able top replicate the pervious grow to a T...this can account for variety, not that the plant is losing potencey...just my 2 cents...i some pre 98 bubba an a few other strains that have been going for a long while...no problems for me...peace n puffs
 

mrcreosote

Active member
Veteran
It seems to me that it would be quite simple for those who claim clone degradation over successive generations to discover and explain the mechanism of how this miraculous DNA change occurs,yet to date, no one has ever done so, using anecdotal evidence in place of consistent scientific repetition of this phenomena.

I could be wrong , as I am not a biologist, macro or micro, but it seems fairly incongruous that this extraordinary claim is never presented with supporting data and is assumed to be 'fact' by its proponents.
Botany is still considered to be a science, as far as I know, and yet some would have us believe otherwise, that it is more akin to an arcane art.
I propose that any 'art' will be substantiated by firm scientific principles and experience if the outcomes are unknown from following non-traditional practices.

Claiming you have 'Mojo' is fun, but it hardly takes the place of a scientific methodology.

Excuse me, but I have to go visit my Phrenologist for a while to relax and discover my future.
 

David762

Member
Is it possible that an F1 or F2 that exhibits especial vigor has been used as an example of genetic degradation in subsequent "cuttings" is really a measure of the genetic instability of that particular cultivar, rather than any problem with the cloning process itself?

Perhaps the experiment should be based upon a known stable IBL versus an F1 or F2?
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
There are things which can cause long held cuttings to lose vigor and potency, but these involve infection, not genetic changes.
 

!!!

Now in technicolor
Veteran
People do believe implicitly that taking clones from clones causes genetic degration. I believe this stems from the fact that hillbillies fucking their sisters also causes genetic degration, and mating the same plants with each other also causes genetic degration.

The latter two examples happen because recessive traits begin to be expressed, but as stated many times throughout this thread, the DNA of a clone will remain the same as the DNA of the original mom from seed.

Some clones do perform worse than others, probably because the plant's hormones are distributed unevenly throughout the plant, and you're taking clones from the top, middle and bottom of the plant which may each have a different concentration of these growth/growth suppression hormones; And these have different characteristics early on, but given enough time yes they should grow out to the full potential of their genetics given the environment is ideal.

As for seeds vs clones, clones in theory are more potent because they are more mature than seeded plants, but in practice I notice no difference between a seeded plant going to flower and the clones from that plant, but I veg for a long time so my seeded plants are mature as well.

That's my knowledge on this topic, but I'm always open to change my beliefs and opinions given new information, so I'm keeping an eye on this thread.
 
I always thought the whole clone from a clone thing was stupid. Ive heard reveging a plant will lead to degradation of potency but I've seen guys here that reveged plants and they ended super frosty. Does anyone know if re-veging is known to "change" anything?
 
Excellent thread! Good luck with your experiment Dave, and how is the SOL Blue Satelite 2.2? Got a few beans to pop! Peace.

jack
 
Excellent thread! Good luck with your experiment Dave, and how is the SOL Blue Satellite 2.2? Got a few beans to pop! Peace.

jack

Thanks Jack, I look forward to sharing the experiment with everyone. At least those that are interested anyway.
I have not flowered the BS 2.2 yet but damn I hope I get the cherry pheno. The BS 2.2 is a little seedling right now but when it grows I'll take those clones and off to the magic maker she will go!
 

Snype

Active member
Veteran
A clone from a clone from a clone hundreds of times will be exactly the same as long as the Moms that they came from over and over again were never stressed or didn't get any virus's or things of this nature. When I grow a MOM, I always back it up first before I take a bunch of cuts from her because of the stress and other factors that could make her deterioate and cause some sort of problem where the next clones could degrade. The first clone that I take, I will take one from her before I clone the shit out of that Mom and I will do this forever. Using cutting utensils that are not sterile or having a dirty room or having mites and things like this could cause some sort of degradation that can make the future cuts that you take, go down hill. As long as your plants are never stressed or subjected to mites, virus's and things like this, then they will be the same that they came from. There are many growers around the world that have elite clone only strains that were never put in any stress and were kept perfect 365 days per year and they have had them for 10+ years and they are still as bomb as the day that they first started them.
 

Snype

Active member
Veteran
Do you know of any examples where the mom was stressed, resulting in declining clone quality?
Bad mite infestations and using utensals that are not streile are 2 examples. These can cause infections that can change the plant for the future.
 

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