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Soil mix

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
I'm thinking spurts of protozoa, followed by die back as the food depletes at which point lactobacillus may start to dominate, Perhaps helped along by aerobic/ anaerobic cycles of wet and dry. Deep in the soil, mixed with compost possibly leading to a fresh spurt of protozoa. On top any survivors have a better chance of being dominated by air loving microbes.
I would probably want to spread it out to aerate and dry, bake a bit in the sun, before making a slurry, leaving the heavier inert materials behind.Maybe a bit of lemon juice for flavor and to coax a little more out of it.
 

Manijahtor

Member
i really need to learn more english, at least the key words for cannabicultavation :)
its great to see you are way ahead of me, i had a lot of discutions with growers that use 30% perlite!!.
so wich are the best replacements for vericulite? (moisture or aeration)
what changes will you do to my mix and agregates (such as bone meal or guano)?
saludos!
 

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
We're so far ahead, we're behind. Many here go through a whole list of ingredients before settling on a simple mix such as yours.
Does it work? Do you need nitrogen or phosphorous? What do you get from the undertow? We're only guessing. I don't want to suggest adding guano, if there is no need. I understand seabird guano is more environmentally friendly so I don't use bat guano. A little goes a very long ways.
I use a little bit of steamed bone meal. Doesn't mean you need it.
As suggested, try one of the recipes on this site.
They have been proven to work pretty well. Do a side by side grow with your soil and see if improvements can be made.
Puede que see, puede que no.
 

mad librettist

Active member
Veteran
i really need to learn more english, at least the key words for cannabicultavation
its great to see you are way ahead of me, i had a lot of discutions with growers that use 30% perlite!!.
so wich are the best replacements for vericulite? (moisture or aeration)
what changes will you do to my mix and agregates (such as bone meal or guano)?
saludos!

calcined DE or clay (I get it from an auto parts store) features both air and water in your mix. As long as your particles are big enough, you will get the aeration, and these products hold water internally as well (unlike perlite).

So unlike vermiculite it will not reduce air porosity even as it increases water porosity.

Also it is much more durable than vermiculite.

Right now I have a mix in one of my containers that is basically just calcined clay and compost.
 

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
Grapeman may have an opinion on alkaline water with high mineral content along with the use of dolomite. River water be nasty. LOL

I have lots of opinions but when it comes to money I always take a water sample so I know what I'm dealing with. All municipal water districts have water quality analysis for their customers.

If it's complicated I pay for an opinion and a recommendation. If it's too complicated, I sell or don't buy the ranch. Life's too short and half crops and poor quality due to water and soil issues will bankrupt a person fast.

Water and soil are the 2 most important things in farming. Then sunshine.
 

Manijahtor

Member
yes and if the river is not contaminated you could pick it up yourself ;)

another question, do you keep your mix covered or you aerate it once in a while?
 
S

SeaMaiden

I personally keep it in a pile nearest where I need it. If it's going to rain, then I try to get a tarp over it.

Your river undertow seriously intrigues us ALL. Show us your undertow!
 

Manijahtor

Member
ok i see, in my country is very common, most of cannabis growers use it a loo00o0ot

heres a little info on the river undertow/waste from this pdf --> http://www.cnpat.embrapa.br/viensub/Trab_PDF/sub_18.pdf

River waste is a subtrate material used in the Floriculture industry of Argentina. It cames from residual vegetal accumulations under anaerobic conditions in the Delta of Paraná River. The aim of this work was to evaluate chemical analysis from different river waste used for ornamental species in pots in the Buenos Aires production areas. Results show a broad variability of the parameters evaluated in the samples, pH ranges between 4,20 and 6,10; EC reaches values from 0,14 mS/cm to 1,23 mS/cm; nitrate contents showed two groups: one below 51 ppm and another between 110-231 ppm; the cations evaluated show a wide dispersion between sample s. These results reinforce the importance of characterizing the materials that will be used in the cultivation and define a suitable technology applicable for this productive system.

heres a few pics of the undertow/waste im using, click to enlarge
p1280197.th.jpg


this is my translation of what its written in the bag:

what is river undertow?:

river undertow or river peat is the accumulation of vegetals with a certain state of decomposition.
It can be found depositated in the banks(shores) of the Litoral streams and it has more than 20 years of accumulation inside water.
After selecting the place it is extracted manually cutting it in 50 centimeters cubes and then drying it and processing it for its distribution.

what benefits brings?:
the undertow brings a great quantity of organic matter whit nutrients and microorganisms which are easily taken by plants.
it is very light/airy and it allows the roots to a normal development.
it adapts to any crop or plantation becous its ph is slighlty acid and neutralizes easily in contact with soil.
it holds great ammount of humidity and it doesnt allow the rapid hardening of the soil.

how is it used?:

in indoors plants its recomended to use it pure or mixed in even parts with peat and mulch.
in containers, masons, bordures or in the orchard mix with paid soil from 30 to 70%.

precautions:
do not use undertow pure in trees or big bushes becouse, for being that light, these wont have a good support (hold).
controll watering becouse it holds plenty of humidity.
dont add quimic fertilizers becouse it will alter the biological activity of the undertow (they say this becouse the chlorine, for example, kills the mycorrhizal)

quimic composition:
organic matter.......20-25%
P.H..................... 5-5.5
carb.nitrog.rel........20
ashes...................5-10%
humidity...............69%

and heres a few more pics

resaca.jpg
006-009_big.jpg
 

mad librettist

Active member
Veteran
ummm... I see lots of uncomposted material there. looks like wood maybe?

please get a compost pile going! this undertow stuff does not sound sustainable.
 
S

SeaMaiden

If I understand him and what it is, it's already on its way to being very well-composted, and may even have lots of bacteria (nitrifyers AND denitrifyers) residing within. It should also be fairly sustainable, assuming this river sees high and low seasons with the flooding that goes along. Of course, this is mostly a guess on my part based on my knowledge of fishes to the north, in the general Amazonia region and areas north.

The reported results on EC, pH, etcetera, again make a lot of sense to me because they speak to different times of year (flood vs dry) as well as stage in cycling. I would use it in place of compost and peat, not along with compost and peat. I would have a strong desire to seriously remineralize the product.
 

Manijahtor

Member
yeah you could say roghly its kind of in the middle of compost and peat. and its very well composted you cant see any sticks or twix or nothing like that.
what do you mean by remineralizing the product sm??
 
S

SeaMaiden

Adding back minerals, like the dolomite lime (to provide calcium and magnesium), soft rock phosphate for phosphorous, silica-based sand for silica, volcanic rock powders for whatever they provide, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

The plants and the microbes need mineral nutrition as well as non-mineral nutrition, that's why I said that. It allows the soil mix to be more easily reused as well.
 
S

SeaMaiden

You need a variety of minerals and mineral sources. DE is but one.
 
Hmm yeah just appears as uncomposted river bank matter, I see twigs and stuff from far away, even though it is supposedly composted for 20 years... and I agree with mad that this doesn't seem very sustainable. It looks like the end result of the soil that we "build" anyway, and I would agree with SM that you'd have the urge to amend it anyway after actually getting your hands on some. I really am not very educated or experienced in soil building... but the sustainability issue is easy to see. Seems like they are saying to just grow right in it unless you are growing a giant tree, since its so light and airy... Wouldn't you have to keep watering often if its in such a light, airy mix? Edit: ok it claims to hold humidity well so maybe that would actually be helpful... but how is it so light and airy if it holds water well? Hmm well that part is cool~ I could see using some of this in your mix, but how would you really know what you are getting in each batch? Nature is random, floods are different every time...this isn't really super scientific and all measured to certain ratios... just kinda random offering of nature that could be used for plant cultivation. If you wanted to know exactly how much you are putting of what in to your mix, you would have to guesstimate with this stuff. Its already sorta acidic, and even with regular peat moss, a little too much pete and you can really mess up a crop so it seems. We got a bag of "good" mix a long time ago (the last bag we ever bought!) that wasn't mixed super well and it messed up our crop sorta because of undistributed chunks of pete. too acidic. I would imagine this product would be somewhat inconsistent? My uneducated .02 ~MissGD

edit: if I were to use this, i would throw it in a compost pile and add some lacto b. to break it down further while it incorporates with some nice humic and black forest/earth
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
perlite sucks!

my mix contains 30% perlite and i have a whole gallery full of pics which suggest that perlite works just great as an ingredient.
im experimenting with other stuff but i would say that, if perlite is the only drainage/aeration ingredient available to you then use it.

i know on paper that perlite lacks advantages that other ingredients like pumice may have, but nevertheless it does it's job perfectly well imo.

one advantage ive recently found for perlite is that the white color reflects heat from the light and the medium stays cooler (especially when you've watered it a few times and some extra has floated up to the surface :D )

VG
 

mad librettist

Active member
Veteran
my mix contains 30% perlite and i have a whole gallery full of pics which suggest that perlite works just great as an ingredient.
im experimenting with other stuff but i would say that, if perlite is the only drainage/aeration ingredient available to you then use it.

i know on paper that perlite lacks advantages that other ingredients like pumice may have, but nevertheless it does it's job perfectly well imo.

one advantage ive recently found for perlite is that the white color reflects heat from the light and the medium stays cooler (especially when you've watered it a few times and some extra has floated up to the surface :D )

VG

lots of things would work as well as perlite.

I said it sucks, not it doesn't work. so I should qualify that sucking is a relative thing.

A mix with perlite can still kick ass even as the perlite goes on sucking!

I am quite confident you will have an easier time with water and heat issues if you use a good replacement for perlite.

a GOOD replacement for perlite is SCREENED DE/molar clay/calcined montmorillianite/etc... If you replace chunky perlite with fine or mixed coarse/fine material, you won't get the results I promise. In fact, you'll be worse off with a higher PWT and decreased air porosity. I see lots of folks claiming they "had no fines" in their material, but every single bag I have purchased was at least 30% fines, which I use elsewhere.

If you are positive you have no fines, screen it anyway. If you have no fines it will get done very fast.
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
cheers mad - i agree with most of what you say, but thought i would yank your chain on that one :D

I am quite confident you will have an easier time with water and heat issues if you use a good replacement for perlite.

in my case i've never had water and soil heat issues until i tried a mix with no perlite that was very dark coloured. the soil was 5 degrees hotter in the no perlite mix!

i think it depends on the rest of your mix really. the water holding capabilities of molar clay/DE may not be what is required in a mix that is otherwise water retentive and heavy. i intend to experiment with molar clay as a perlite substitute but i will be keeping a close eye on how much extra water it makes my mix hold.
i dont think its quite as simple as some people think either. my 30% perlite mix drains much quicker than the bark mix ive been trying that is 60% large grains - whearas on paper the latter should drain much more quickly.

also the argument that perlite is 'dead space' and that is bad may also be flawed. most natural soil will have many stones - big or small - that is also 'dead space' but it may be a kick ass soil all the same.

i think another advantage of perlite being 'dead space' is that it facilitates a proper wet/dry (ish) cycle which ime can produce the best, fastest and healthiest growth.

VG
 

jaykush

dirty black hands
ICMag Donor
Veteran
i dont think its quite as simple as some people think either. my 30% perlite mix drains much quicker than the bark mix ive been trying that is 60% large grains - whearas on paper the latter should drain much more quickly.

your non perlite mix should drain just as well. some of my soils are nothing but native soil(clay/silt), compost and lavarock. if the water puddles on the soil surface before it goes in the soil is not well draining and needs some fixing. it should disappear pretty much immediately after you let up the watering. when your using materials with actual soil in it you can get away with far less of it because of the higher surface areas in the soil particles. compared to say peat or coco.

when i first started tinkering with wild/local soils the mixes i created never had enough drainage or aeration. what i thought was efficient according to numbers and percentages was totally wrong. soil structure needs to be done by sight and feel. fertilizing amendments can easily come after.

also being more of a sponge is just the way of a more natural soil. you have to compensate for all that water holding goodness when growing in pots.
 

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