Fasilitor Vs. Armor Si

DabSnob · Aug 29, 2013

Good morning/afternoon/Evening to all of you.
:biggrin:

decided today (8/29) to start a Side by Side of fasilitor and armor Si. with all the talk about Silica being a huge part of any nutrient regimen i had to see if im rightfully spending the $200 on 250ml of fasilitor ( every 3 months ) vs. spending $25 on 950ml of Armor Si.
I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has used these products before. i was debating on doing a 3rd comparison of food grade DE but dont have any available to me locally.

heres what i know about each product-

Fasilitor-
Usage rates- full - .6ml/gal
max - 1.2ml/gal (first 2 weeks flower)
active ingredients-
Silicic Acid / Si(OH)4 - 1.4%
soluble potash - .6%
Boron - .1%
Molybdenum - .001%

Armor Si-
Usage rates- mild - 1.25ml/gal
full - 2.5ml/gal
max - 5ml/gal
Active Ingredients-
Silicon Dioxide / SiO2 - 10%
soluble potash - 4%

Grow Info-
Strain- Fire OG BX3
Atmosphere-dialed in @ 74degrees/day w/ 45% humidity - 68degrees/night w/ 55% humidity
Nutes- baseboost,startboost,bloomboost,peakboost,massboost,finaleboost,Ecozen.
Soil- Roots original + 10% soilreef Biochar + 1 TBS/gal dolomite lime + Baseboost ( 100gr ) in 3gal pots
Lighting- first 4 of 12/12 600w lumatek. last 5 weeks 1000w sun system.

Pictures to follow when my lights kick on this evening.

Bongstar420 · Sep 28, 2013

They are both overpriced. You shouldn't pay for advertising. Any source of silica will do. I use either the cheapest or closest source of Potassium silicate available as long as it is only Potassium silicate with no other ingrediants. You only need about 5-10ppm dissolved silica. Check it:

https://customhydronutrients.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=68

This will perform the same as any silicate source which includes Fasilitor and ArmorSi. Notice the difference in price and how many effective doses you get.

Fasilitor is most likely just more bioavailable than Potassium silicate in the immediate sense. The Potassium silicate is bioavailable btw as leaves will become noticeably more leathery and stems very resistant to breaking. Over something like week, I doubt there is a difference. You could use a quadruple effective dosage factor for Fasilitor vs Potassium silicate and the latter still comes out to be more the better choice since it is like a hundred times more cost effective. There is nothing special about the micro's in the Fasilitor btw.

Just watch out for reactions. Silicate ferts tend to precipitate silica polymers in concentrated acidic conditions as well as with some salts. Add silica last to your working solutions and you should minimize any incompatibility problems.

Hash Man · Sep 28, 2013

^^^
Yup agsil 16h for the win. I am still working through my 50 lb bag. Its so much cheaper than any other silica you are basically throwing money away by not getting it...

That being said, i will watch if u continue. I am hearing good stuff about the facilitator but am not close to sold on it.

Hash Zeppelin · Sep 28, 2013

Bongstar420 said:
They are both overpriced. You shouldn't pay for advertising. Any source of silica will do. I use either the cheapest or closest source of Potassium silicate available as long as it is only Potassium silicate with no other ingrediants. You only need about 5-10ppm dissolved silica. Check it:

https://customhydronutrients.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=68

This will perform the same as any silicate source which includes Fasilitor and ArmorSi. Notice the difference in price and how many effective doses you get.

Fasilitor is most likely just more bioavailable than Potassium silicate in the immediate sense. The Potassium silicate is bioavailable btw as leaves will become noticeably more leathery and stems very resistant to breaking. Over something like week, I doubt there is a difference. You could use a quadruple effective dosage factor for Fasilitor vs Potassium silicate and the latter still comes out to be more the better choice since it is like a hundred times more cost effective. There is nothing special about the micro's in the Fasilitor btw.

Just watch out for reactions. Silicate ferts tend to precipitate silica polymers in concentrated acidic conditions as well as with some salts. Add silica last to your working solutions and you should minimize any incompatibility problems.

^some of that is wrong
Facilitator is boric and silicic acids in a specific ratio and strength. It is a different product than silicate additives. In organic soil mixes these acids are made naturally from boron and silica breaking down, however if you grow in a hydroponic medium this will not happen. You need to add the correct acids. I have done an entire year of side by side experiments and facilitator has doubled my yield, and just makes the plants healthier and easier to care for in general. It has cut my work load in half, and cut my worries in half too.

You can replace the activator with fulvex and vitamino, and the rest of the line is not necessary, but the Facilitator is a great product.

you are right about always adding the facilitator last.

exploziv · Sep 28, 2013

will there be any control sample with no Si supplementation in your experiment? that would be very interesting!

Bongstar420 · Oct 7, 2013

Hash Zeppelin said:
^some of that is wrong
Facilitator is boric and silicic acids in a specific ratio and strength. It is a different product than silicate additives. In organic soil mixes these acids are made naturally from boron and silica breaking down, however if you grow in a hydroponic medium this will not happen. You need to add the correct acids. I have done an entire year of side by side experiments and facilitator has doubled my yield, and just makes the plants healthier and easier to care for in general. It has cut my work load in half, and cut my worries in half too.

You can replace the activator with fulvex and vitamino, and the rest of the line is not necessary, but the Facilitator is a great product.

you are right about always adding the facilitator last.

I use been using cock roach killer for Boric acid for like 5 years- its 99% pure and happened to be most convenient :laughing:

Im willing to bet I could match any output with cheap ass chemicals for the same NPKCaMgSFeMnZnBCuMo ratio and concentrations in the same grow system. I just dont believe you need anything fancy in the way of nutrients beyond humate/fulvates which are just old ass compost and not really fancy. But hey, I also dont believe a few grams of silica could do much more than 5% to the yield. Its more of a keep your ass out of the fire by resisting damage.

Trend · Nov 10, 2013

Go do a run and find out. I mean if you're willing to claim you can match anyone's output with some generic salts I'd love to see this myself. Not just output but quality aswell. At the very least you will see your veg time cut almost in half.

Coconutz · Nov 10, 2013

Silica should be added first. Even aptus says the same about their own. Its on the interwebz right now,

http://aptus-usa.com/fasilitor

How to Use FaSilitor

Add FaSilitor FIRST to your reservoir of clean water every feeding during all stages of plant growth. It’s very important to add FaSilitor before any other nutrients and boosters to maximize effectiveness.
- See more at: http://aptus-usa.com/fasilitor#sthash.8wQuKfq0.dpuf

Tips from the field

Very important! FaSilitor is an ultra-pure liquid and should not be contaminated. Always mix FaSilitor first in your reservoir filled with clean water (reverse osmosis or dechlorinated). The precise chemistry of FaSilitor is negatively affected if water already contains added fertilizers (especially NPK).

- See more at: http://aptus-usa.com/fasilitor#sthash.8wQuKfq0.dpuf

Either way, aptus is a ripoff. People shouldnt be buying shit from scam artists like these.
Gallons of silica are like $30

UnknownProphet · Nov 10, 2013

In over 10 years every grower I've come across that complains about the cost of nutes has ALWAYS 100% of the time shown me cheap looking results. It's a mentality/ego thing which reminds me of that show 'Extreme Cheapskates'. Cutting corners for cost alone can itself be costly. Sure I could build my own soil and make my own nutrient concoctions, but some of us don't want to have 50 pounds of manure or salts lingering around like we are planning some uni b*mber shit.

Besides that I do look forward to OPs results.

EclipseFour20 · Nov 10, 2013

Bongstar420 said:
...Any source of silica will do. I use either the cheapest or closest source of Potassium silicate available as long as it is only Potassium silicate with no other ingrediants. ...

Hmmm...you might reconsider your conclusion. The Si found in Potassium Silicate (Silica Blast, Pro-tekt, etc) is not in the form of Plant Available Silica (PAS)...rather it will take weeks for it to be converted to PAS. There are only two types of PAS: amorphous silica (think food grade DE) and monosilicic acid (very few Potassium Silicate products include this "expensive" ingredient).

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade, Cheers!

BTW, sand is mostly silica right? Real cheap right? Zero PAS.

Bongstar420 · Nov 30, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
Hmmm...you might reconsider your conclusion. The Si found in Potassium Silicate (Silica Blast, Pro-tekt, etc) is not in the form of Plant Available Silica (PAS)...rather it will take weeks for it to be converted to PAS. There are only two types of PAS: amorphous silica (think food grade DE) and monosilicic acid (very few Potassium Silicate products include this "expensive" ingredient).

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade, Cheers!

BTW, sand is mostly silica right? Real cheap right? Zero PAS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicic_acid

If you actually read these links, you will find out how almost free Silicic acid can be had. I do not see how your Tomato yields can pay for $3000/gal Fasilitor. The Armor Si is not any where near as obscenely priced, but I seriously doubt your Tomato yield will make the investment worth it. Cannabis is a weak accumulator of Silica and only sees modest improvements with supplementation according to the horticultural research journals that Ive read, and Ive got a Bachelors of Science in Integrated Horticultural Production so its not like I am "just some dumbass" on the subject matter but rather the inverse. Normal surface water will inevitably contain Silicates as "Silicic acid" btw.

http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/water/silicon/silicon-and-water.htm (these people are selling water cleaning systems based on the claim that Silicic acids are ubiquitous)

How about gracing us with that magic "form" of Silica or other mineral that you know is worth more than $3000/diluted gallon. I have already conceded that an aquaponic system might benefit though you would probably need to use distilled or reverse osmosis to really starve a Cannabis plant of silica. If Silica is ever present, Silicic acid will be constantly produced with no need to supply "PAS." Also, Amorphous silica is produced by mixing silicate salts with a proton donor like Phosphoric acid. Amorphous silica does not dissolve to any appreciable extent and is similar to Quartz in that respect. I can't see how it is more "PAS" than good ol' Potassium silicate.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j150516a002 (note the Stoichiometric language in the discussion of the compound)

I think saving people's wasted time, money, and resources is good even if I will never meet or know anything about them.

Coconutz · Dec 1, 2013

Honestly... I think the protekt silica works better.
I used a sample bottle of fasilitor and did not see any reason to spend $3K per gallon, thats for sure!

shaggyballs · Feb 5, 2014

looks to me facilitator is just potassium silicate dissolved in phosphoric acid.

with micro's nothing more!!!!

who has the important answer:

what scientifically make this a superior product????
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=261720

northerngrafta · Feb 5, 2014

After using facilitator I don't even feel like the two should be compared they couldn't be more different.
Facilitator can also be used to stunt plants like a PGR can potassium silicate do that (not to my knowledge)

Mister_D · Feb 5, 2014

UnknownProphet said:
In over 10 years every grower I've come across that complains about the cost of nutes has ALWAYS 100% of the time shown me cheap looking results. It's a mentality/ego thing which reminds me of that show 'Extreme Cheapskates'. Cutting corners for cost alone can itself be costly. Sure I could build my own soil and make my own nutrient concoctions, but some of us don't want to have 50 pounds of manure or salts lingering around like we are planning some uni b*mber shit.

Besides that I do look forward to OPs results.

Hate to come in and burst your bubble, but this was grown with about the cheapest nutes a man can buy (jack's hydro and cal-nit). Nothing else added other than sulfuric acid (99% purity) to adjust PH. I'll take the pepsi challenge with anyone's "additive improved" herb any day of the week.

Now to be clear, if it makes you feel better for whatever reason to buy the same elements in a pretty bottle for umpteen times more money, I won't stop ya. Though I assure you anyone with a minimal education in horticulture would laugh at what many growers spend on nutes. Capitalism is a wonderful thing however :biggrin:

.

Dab - Look forward to your results. As mentioned earlier, you really should have a control group that receives no silica. It's good shit I assure you, but to be a true side by side you need a control.

vince514 · Feb 5, 2014

barricade from advanced nutrients was the BEST silica product on the market 0.15 ml/L now they have rhino skin that's 10X watered down at 2ml per L what a joke..just IMHO

shaggyballs · Feb 5, 2014

What makes Facilitator soo special???????
There is alot of conjecture floating around.
I would like a scientific explanation!!!!!!
If it acts like a PGR than it has a PGR hidden in it!!!!
But where is the proof???
What would cause such a reaction????
Is there ingredients not listed????
Hmmm!
I don,t mean to rattle any cages....but things just don't add up!

Just my view! :tiphat:

shag

shaggyballs · Feb 5, 2014

UnknownProphet said:
In over 10 years every grower I've come across that complains about the cost of nutes has ALWAYS 100% of the time shown me cheap looking results. .

.................... :laughing:

..............
Yall aint bin ta mi howse!!

jayjayfrank · Feb 5, 2014

Hi, first post here, learned a lot so i have to give back... The faccilitor or regulator as it is named here in eu, might have a little of PGRs actulaly phytohormones... it cann not contain gibberelins, this plant hormone causes cell elongnation witch is contrary to the suposed effect of regulator/facilitor. Second it may contain the "pgr" cytokinin, but that's not such a bad thing, so does any kelp product or nytrozime... also it might contain auxins (not necessarily I3AA IBA etc..) these 2 combined in a ratio of 3:1 C:A will get you a plant released from apical dominance... actually any depletion of auxin will do that..

notes on fasilitor

thoughts? ideas?

mrrangz · Feb 5, 2014

drip clean would be a cheaper option vs fasilitor. anyone that has used drip clean knows the power it holds. altho many people just seem to take it as a hydro additive that cleans out salts.

Fasilitor Vs. Armor Si

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