Red Heifer returns to Israel

Klompen · Sep 14, 2018

Douglas.Curtis said:
Though I have no names (I don't keep records), there are a number of documents from the era which were not included in "the bible." There are also a few tiny references to Jesus and the disciples in non-religious texts (day to day recordings), nothing concrete.

One of the major downsides to the bible is the New Testament, written some 7 decades later. Heavily politically influenced editing, to create a calander years worth of monthly teachings. The masses were unable to read, and the stories were created to 'teach' them in an easy to understand way.

Seems to have worked, since it's put a spell on a lot of people for thousands of years. Massive resource funnel to a few small groups at the top. Always follow the money. When you get nauseous and feel like you're going to be sick, you should be really close to the truth.

The oldest extant documents that mention Jesus Christ are those found at Nag Hamadi. They are often referred to as "The Gnostic Gospels". They paint an entirely different picture of Jesus though certainly not a negative one. They contain everything from gay disciples to astrology. Not only that but they portray Judas Iscariot and "Doubting Thomas" as the closest and most trusted disciples of Jesus. They predate any publicly-known biblical documents by centuries. It is widely believed by scholars that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are actually all renamed portions of an original work that is often referred to as the "Quelle Document"(which no longer exists as far as we know).

So actually we only assume the original documents were written 70 or so years later, and mostly by a man who claimed to be a disciple of Christ who never actually knew him while he was alive. The only actual known sources of the material were actually much later. The history of the books of The Bible is murky at best, and the people who composed the Bible at Nicea actually made things much worse by declaring everything not officially recognized at Nicea as being heretical(and thus to be destroyed on pain of death). The more deeply I studied The Bible as a Christian the more the narrative presented in it began to unfold. I was a very fervent Christian when I was younger because I wanted a moral compass and divine guidance, but I was shaken out of this as I dug deep into my studies.

beta · Sep 14, 2018

Klompen said:
Its always hard to assign mortal traits to an omnipresent and omnipotent being. Its like a root vegetable trying to explain astrophysics.

Before we start talking about assigning traits, you need to demonstrate that omnipresent / omnipotent beings exist. Otherwise, we might as well be talking about the 'moral traits' of Reptilian Humanoids from Phason Sector 3.

I mean, you know how hard it is to assign moral traits to Reptilian Humanoids. That's why it's so hard to talk about them, it has nothing to do with the fact that I just made them up, I swear! :biggrin:

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

Klompen said:
Some of the greatest experts on genocide have never engaged in genocide. Is it a waste of a life to study something that is part of our world and is helpful to understand? You still haven't answered my completely reasonable list of questions. If you can't even answer those questions how can you be so sure you know The Bible to be true?

List of questions?

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

Just want to throw a question out there........

For those of you who think God is made up, and is impossible....... How do you think the universe was created? The very first particle? Not just the big bang, but how all the matter in the universe got into a singular place. How all the matter in the universe came to be?

igrowone · Sep 14, 2018

beta said:
Before we start talking about assigning traits, you need to demonstrate that omnipresent / omnipotent beings exist. Otherwise, we might as well be talking about the 'moral traits' of Reptilian Humanoids from Phason Sector 3.

I mean, you know how hard it is to assign moral traits to Reptilian Humanoids. That's why it's so hard to talk about them, it has nothing to do with the fact that I just made them up, I swear!

i was actually talking about the mind set of the human writers that did the old testament rewrite, which is the current opinion of scholars
all female aspects are removed from heaven
doesn't sound like heaven, might account for jehovah's short temper and vengefulness

CosmicGiggle · Sep 14, 2018

OldSchoolGrow said:
Just want to throw a question out there........

For those of you who think God is made up, and is impossible....... How do you think the universe was created? The very first particle? Not just the big bang, but how all the matter in the universe got into a singular place. How all the matter in the universe came to be?

That question is pure speculation and most likely will never be answered.

....... and that's how the concept of 'God' came to be created, we just reached the end of the road in out ability to understand using logic. :tiphat:

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

CosmicGiggle said:
That question is pure speculation and most likely will never be answered.

....... and that's how the concept of 'God' came to be created, we just reached the end of the road in out ability to understand using logic.

So using logic........ How was the universe created? The first particle? Has science explained how matter was brought into creation?

beta · Sep 14, 2018

OldSchoolGrow said:
So using logic........ How was the universe created? The first particle? Has science explained how matter was brought into creation?

The real answer is 'we don't know'. That is a much more honest answer than 'God did it'.

Beware people who claim to know everything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

"God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on."
~Neil deGrasse Tyson

igrowone · Sep 14, 2018

OldSchoolGrow said:
So using logic........ How was the universe created? The first particle? Has science explained how matter was brought into creation?

there are conjectures out there
1 is that it's an infinite universe, infinite in time and space
another is that there was a collision of 'branes', boundaries of higher dimensions distinct from our 3 dimensional universe
all of us are entitled to our chosen conjectures, proof is a work in progress

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

igrowone said:
there are conjectures out there
1 is that it's an infinite universe, infinite in time and space
another is that there was a collision of 'branes', boundaries of higher dimensions distinct from our 3 dimensional universe
all of us are entitled to our chosen conjectures, proof is a work in progress

Ok, lets entertain the thought of a multiverse, who created the first universe that would give birth to others? Who created the first particle in the first universe? :tiphat:

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

beta said:
The real answer is 'we don't know'. That is a much more honest answer than 'God did it'.

Beware people who claim to know everything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

"God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on."
~Neil deGrasse Tyson

Or it's scientific ignorance that scientist look the other way on the largest body of evidence ever produced in history of the universe. Matter itself. :tiphat:

igrowone · Sep 14, 2018

OldSchoolGrow said:
Ok, lets entertain the thought of a multiverse, who created the first universe that would give birth to others? Who created the first particle in the first universe?

let's go with the infinite universe, which could be the multiverse you're referring to
infinite time and space, there is no first, there is no initial cause
which doesn't work well inside the human mind, we live and evolved in cause and effect
human understanding may have its limits

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

igrowone said:
let's go with the infinite universe, which could be the multiverse you're referring to
infinite time and space, there is no first, there is no initial cause
which doesn't work well inside the human mind, we live and evolved in cause and effect
human understanding may have its limits

That doesn't sound very scientific..... No first.......

However every scientist believes in an end to the universe. Explain that one?

igrowone · Sep 14, 2018

OldSchoolGrow said:
That doesn't sound very scientific..... No first.......

However every scientist believes in an end to the universe. Explain that one?

not every scientist believes in the end of the universe
if you have an infinite universe, it doesn't end
that said, most scientists are of the big bang school, there is a beginning and end

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

igrowone said:
not every scientist believes in the end of the universe
if you have an infinite universe, it doesn't end
that said, most scientists are of the big bang school, there is a beginning and end

Every single scientist that I have ever heard on the subject will say the universe will either die by spreading out so far that atoms themselves will be ripped apart. The other theory is all the matter in the universe will join together again, and form the big bang again. This is determined by two things, the spreading of the fabric of the universe creating the "big freeze", or gravity drawing all matter back together. I have never heard a scientist say the universe will never end.

Either way, an end.

So what's the beginning? Where did that first bit of matter come from......? God maybe? If not God, then give me a solid scientific answer.......

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

beta said:
The real answer is 'we don't know'. That is a much more honest answer than 'God did it'.

Beware people who claim to know everything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

"God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on."
~Neil deGrasse Tyson

That doesn't bother you that Man can't create matter....... Seems like only something a God could do, huh?

igrowone · Sep 14, 2018

OldSchoolGrow said:
Every single scientist that I have ever heard on the subject will say the universe will either die by spreading out so far that atoms themselves will be ripped apart. The other theory is all the matter in the universe will join together again, and form the big bang again.

Either way, an end.

So what's the beginning? Where did that first bit of matter come from......? God maybe? If not God, then give me a solid scientific answer.......

you're subscribing to a particular class of theories, which is the majority opinion
the older view was 'steady state', which was replaced by big bang
but the cycle keeps turning, steady state is back in newer forms
there are sources out there if you are inclined to go in that direction
if you say big bang is settled science, that's your privilege
but there are observations that don't mesh well with big bang as it is currently understood

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

igrowone said:
you're subscribing to a particular class of theories, which is the majority opinion
the older view was 'steady state', which was replaced by big bang
but the cycle keeps turning, steady state is back in newer forms
there are sources out there if you are inclined to go in that direction
if you say big bang is settled science, that's your privilege
but there are observations that don't mesh well with big bang as it is currently understood

So if you wont submit to who created the first particle, and are stating that the universe has always been..... Can you name a single thing in the history of the universe that shares this trait? What other evidence can we point to that backs this theory?

CosmicGiggle · Sep 14, 2018

..... well there's nothing scientific about belief in a being that you can't ever see, hear or smell.

It's all just a big, unexplained mystery and nothing more needs to be said about it.

nobody knows nuthin' fer sure, end of story.

....... and now that I think about it, that's why Storm Shadow capitalized the D in Dance! :biggrin:

OldSchoolGrow · Sep 14, 2018

Douglas Curtis

Instead of insulting me on my rep points, join the conversation......

How was the first particle created?

Red Heifer returns to Israel

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