First coco grow -> very slow growth

ibreza · Oct 23, 2017

Hey Snypie, no worries man. Your pictures reminded me of my first coco grow and I made the same mistakes, so I couldn't resist chiming in.
Oversized containers, Overwatering, Mg def killing my plants and no idea how to fix it.
Anyway I told you what worked for me, best of luck for your next grow.

Snypie · Oct 23, 2017

PoweredByLove said:
do you have any pics of what they look like now?

Yes, of course! Thank you for stopping by.
The biggest plant:

Snypie · Oct 23, 2017

The biggest plant continued:

The smallest plant:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When i saw the biggest plant's roots i knew i am on the right track, just i must learn watering... This is the problem i know. So i don't want to change medium.

Miraculous Meds:
I made my homework and i want to share my experience with you. I filled this 2 liter pots with coco from the bag. It was 568 grams with pot. The pot is 78 grams. So roughly 2 liter coco = 500 grams. When i water the plant till 10% runoff in this pot it will be 920-950 grams.
You said the following: "[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] You want about 1/3 heavier than total dry weight. If you water when they are down to that 1/2 to 1/3 moisture level, they will start to bounce back. Water them when they are still too wet, and they drown."
In this case i want to water when the pot is ~ 650-700 grams. Sounds right?
I know it is serious but i am an engineer and i can thinking in numbers , unfortunately

I made a fresh nutes from GHE 6/9 with RO water (1.2 EC, 5.8 PH) and read the label. It has lower amount of Calcium, Nitrogen, Potassium then the Bionova Coco A+B.
[/FONT]

maimunji · Oct 23, 2017

I can see plants spread roots very well. Also looks like new growth on your biggest plant is healthy. I can see in your first post you use h&g root exelarerator which is most expensive root stimulator on the market and also known like the best of the best. This shit will make rooths to grow super faster. All this make me wonder why your plants looks like shit? I can see only one reason for this, plants is just hungry. You starve them.
I sprout seeds and 2 gallon pots and water every day to run off. They grow super fast and roots hit the bottom next few days. I also can watering every 3 or every 5 days when coco is bone dry without issues actually this is what I do now because this save me a lot of work in veg mixing nutes and loosing time and plants stay healthy. I have clones in solo cups that is 3 mounts old.
If I skip watering day coco is bone dry and plants wilt almoust hitting ground after watering they bounce back I never watering them to run off. In theory salt build up should kill them before mounts but they are healthy. Anyway coco is beast and can be treated many different ways with good results.

Snypie · Oct 23, 2017

Yes, you maybe right. I gave them in the beginning just 0.6 EC with RO. Then i changed to tap (0.5 EC) + epsom (~0.2 EC) and there was only room left 0.5-0.6 EC for base nutes. The runoff EC was climbing so slow, but nowdays it is 1.5-1.6.
I was angry last week and i hit them tap+epsom+BioNova A+B till 1.8 and they exploded in growth.

But they don't liked it. I suspect tap water, because some of my leaves become whitish filmy (veil?). Sorry, but i am learning english too due this hobby... It is very difficult to express myself. I can read everything but speaking and writing is hard yet

I will go back to RO but i can't decide which nutes i use. GH 6/9 or BioNova Coco A+B.

maimunji · Oct 23, 2017

Is tap water good for drink in your country? Mine come 0.3 e.c from tap and I add epsom salt to 0.4 e.c. I have 2 bottles ghe micro and bloom use them for clones but personally don't like em a lot. Its looks like I overfert most of the clones with 6/9. They always make claws and very dark leaves. On big plants I noticed magnesium deficiency and I think 1 gram epsom per 4 ltr. water will fix this issues easy.

Snypie · Oct 24, 2017

You can drink it, but i hate the taste. You can feel the lots of Calcium and when it is evaporated from the bucket it will leave a few milimeters layer of hard deposit (aka raw Calcium).
The BioNova has 11.5% CaO in the A bottle which i think is more then enough. Considering that the GH has only 7% and it is working with RO too. But this is also guessing from my part.

TOKING TOKOLOSH · Oct 24, 2017

You should really consider growing in a hempy's sytem.
This will allow you to feed twice weekly and not worry about over/under watering.
Also I hydrate my coco with a calmag solution to begin with as this helps with buffering of incorret ph.

Nutes are very important and you shoud experiment till you find what works for you,
I was very lucky to make the aqquaintance of a qualified horticulturist that works in the commercial field.
I use linctified salts in 3 parts Hydro A, B and C
A= micro elements
B = Nitrogen Based
C = Phosphates etc(only in flowering)

They get mixed in different ratios to get a concentrate wich is the added at 10ml per 1 litre water throughout lifecycle of plant - no1/4 strength, 1/2 strength bullshit!!

967 · Oct 24, 2017

Surely I'm not the only person that manages to water sometimes every 2 - 3 days, to the point the coco is dry, plants wilting, ec whatever I feel at the time, sometimes just plain un ph'd tap water, and still have healthy plants yielding one lb+ from a 600W HPS?

Now i know that yeild ain't gonna get me any applause, but my point is people all saying you can't let it dry and should water several times a day etc it's in a way just plain not true, at least from my experience. Sure, maybe I could've yielded 1.5lb watering several times a day if I dialed it, but I set up drip system once watering 4 times a day and saw no change in anything...

I don't grow like that anymore, just sayin...

PoweredByLove · Oct 24, 2017

Well the roots look good, overall plant looks magnesium def, the crispy leaves are old damage you can pluck all those off. I would say from here resume feeding and add 1/2 tsp Epsom salt per gallon of water. Mix it to the water first then add your food to 500/600 ppm on a hanna i think that's like 1.0 ~1.2 ec. And then adjust up or down from there depending on how often you feed. You flowering yet?

Snypie · Oct 24, 2017

What kind of water are you talking about? RO or tap?
No, i am not flowering yet. They are now in half gallon pots (2 liters exatly), i want to transplant them into 1 gallon of fabric pot and flowering when they rooted they new home. It was the original plan. But maybe this pots will be enough. What do you think about this?

Miraculous Meds · Oct 24, 2017

Snypie said:
The biggest plant continued:

<a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74770&pictureid=1794477" target="_blank">View Image

The smallest plant:

<a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74770&pictureid=1794478" target="_blank">View Image <a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74770&pictureid=1794479" target="_blank">View Image <a href="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74770&pictureid=1794480" target="_blank">View Image

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When i saw the biggest plant's roots i knew i am on the right track, just i must learn watering... This is the problem i know. So i don't want to change medium.

Miraculous Meds:
I made my homework and i want to share my experience with you. I filled this 2 liter pots with coco from the bag. It was 568 grams with pot. The pot is 78 grams. So roughly 2 liter coco = 500 grams. When i water the plant till 10% runoff in this pot it will be 920-950 grams.
You said the following: "[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] You want about 1/3 heavier than total dry weight. If you water when they are down to that 1/2 to 1/3 moisture level, they will start to bounce back. Water them when they are still too wet, and they drown."
In this case i want to water when the pot is ~ 650-700 grams. Sounds right?
I know it is serious but i am an engineer and i can thinking in numbers , unfortunately

I made a fresh nutes from GHE 6/9 with RO water (1.2 EC, 5.8 PH) and read the label. It has lower amount of Calcium, Nitrogen, Potassium then the Bionova Coco A+B.
[/FONT]

Your above scenario is correct. maybe a little on the dry side with the highest weight of 950g, and the lowest dry weight of 650g, with an available 380g of water, leaves you around 21%, but you get the idea. Shoot for 33% moisture before watering, when trying to fill the pots with roots. When the roots are established in the pot, then, no less than 50% moisture before watering again.

Im not familiar with ghe, but lower k isn't a problem, cause of coco coirs cec demands. If your other brand of nutrients are designed for coir, id run that at 1.2ec, and you shouldn't have any worries about needing more or less of an element. Just keep your input feed at 5.8 to 6ph, get your watering frequency down, and it should be good to go.

967 · Oct 24, 2017

Sucks to have these problems, coco should be easy. I grew in coco for years for that reason, easier than both soil and hydro IMO. Either add perlite or try find a chips blend next time I reckon

repuk · Oct 25, 2017

I have exclusively grown in coco, and from experience:

- Keep PH at 5.6-5.8

- As Ibreza advised: Coco is an hydroponic medium! you cannot let it get dry, as the medium is coco+water, not "only" coco; or you'll get nute lockout and salt buildup. Best method to keep it running at 100%: use Blumats.

- 500ppm (0.7EC) for flowering plants is too lacking, that's what I feed to seedlings once they are established (0.5-0.8EC)!. Depending on the strain, EC should be somewhere between 1 to 1.8.

- No matter if you use tap or RO water, coco needs mending with Ca/Mag, either by using dolomite lime, calmag, epsom salts or whatever. Don't trust nute manufacturers... first work up from your actual EC to 1EC, 1.2EC, 1.4EC... and check plant health. If signs of cal/mag deficiencies are still there, you'll need to mend in that department. Check this Commodore's thread for a superb explanation of the impact of water characteristic on PH swing.

PH swing isn't actually a problem if you ally with it by setting initial solution at PH 5.6-5.8, if the solution is right, it will slowly swing upwards, allowing for a wider PH range nute absorption up to 6.2.

If I were in your situation:

1.- Will flush (runoff at least of same pot volume, twice if possible) all pots with 5.6-5.8 PH'ed plain water (not RO!). If you're going to use a drip system, Drip Clean is a must to keep lines unclogged, and will be great to use for flushing at this stage.

2.- Will prepare feeding solution at EC1, PH 5.6-5.8. Water all pots to runoff of at least 30% this time to ensure coco charges uniformly. I'd go with a third or half of the strength vs manufacturer instructions of the CalMag mending of your choice.

3.- If you go the blumats route, this is the moment to adjust each sensor (while pot is fully saturated but barely drips) setting it to couple drips per minute. You'll need to re-check after 6,12,24 hours to dial Blumats in to your desired runoff, I personally aim for a tiny amount of runoff.

4.- Wait several days and watch the plants for CalMag defs. Wait a week and if plants turns healthy and start growing at a very noticeable rate, increase EC by .2 each week until you reach 1.8 or so maximum (better to be on the low side).

Using drip clean has the advantage of preventing clogs on lines, but also dissolves any salt build up. If you use blumats, and coco is kept optimally moist at all times, nute lockout and salt buildup won't be an issue with advised ECs (1.6-1.8) while using drip clean.

As Ibreza pointed out there are more variables to check: humidity, ventilation, extraction, proper light height are key for success. Once you nail all of them you'll easily notice: plants grow at twice the pace vs soil.

stoned40yrs · Oct 26, 2017

In my experience drip clean doesn't do jackshit. I run blumats and quit using drip clean years ago, no difference. I also never could feed above 1.3-1.4 ec or tips burn. My plants do great at 1.2-1.3 ec till the end of week 7 when I use straight water for 2 weeks after flushing the coco with a lot of water. I use V+B nutes and never ever check the ph anymore as it always stays in range. Easy peasy, I hate making shit harder than it is.

Snypie · Oct 26, 2017

repuk said:
- 500ppm (0.7EC) for flowering plants is too lacking, that's what I feed to seedlings once they are established (0.5-0.8EC)!. Depending on the strain, EC should be somewhere between 1 to 1.8.

I am not flowering yet.

- No matter if you use tap or RO water, coco needs mending with Ca/Mag, either by using dolomite lime, calmag, epsom salts or whatever. Don't trust nute manufacturers... first work up from your actual EC to 1EC, 1.2EC, 1.4EC... and check plant health. If signs of cal/mag deficiencies are still there, you'll need to mend in that department. Check this Commodore's thread for a superb explanation of the impact of water characteristic on PH swing.

Wow, this is a great post. I wish it had been written before. In soil with tap water the PH drifts towards alkaline. In coco too, but if i used RO it drifts to acid. It was very hard to compensate with a low/high PH feeding. But now i understand this. So i do the math. My tap is 16.3 German degree, so i set it to 100 ppm (0.2 EC) with RO water. It gives me rougly 5.7-5.9 German degree.

1.- Will flush (runoff at least of same pot volume, twice if possible) all pots with 5.6-5.8 PH'ed plain water (not RO!). If you're going to use a drip system, Drip Clean is a must to keep lines unclogged, and will be great to use for flushing at this stage.

I did this, but there was no salt buildup. The EC went pretty low with just half the pot size of water.

2.- Will prepare feeding solution at EC1, PH 5.6-5.8. Water all pots to runoff of at least 30% this time to ensure coco charges uniformly. I'd go with a third or half of the strength vs manufacturer instructions of the CalMag mending of your choice.

So my water starting EC is 0.2. I gave to this 1/3 Calmag (2-0-0 NPK) and this was 50 ppm (0.1 EC). So by base water was 0.3 EC. I gave to this 1.0 EC base coco nutes and Drip clean + roots tonic. Final EC: 670 ppm (1.34 EC)

3.- If you go the blumats route, this is the moment to adjust each sensor (while pot is fully saturated but barely drips) setting it to couple drips per minute. You'll need to re-check after 6,12,24 hours to dial Blumats in to your desired runoff, I personally aim for a tiny amount of runoff.

No, i not will use blumats. I hooked up a drip system. I found here a tutorial from Pico. I need just set up the equal flow rate. So no problem.

...

Mikell · Oct 26, 2017

Not really going to chime in, if your follow Miraculous' advice he will steer you down the right path.

I will say that you should avoid weighing pots on a scale. It will become a crutch.

If you do, train your hand at the same time. Use the scale to confirm what you think with your hand and gradually stop using it.

soundman · Oct 26, 2017

repuk said:
I have exclusively grown in coco, and from experience:

- Keep PH at 5.6-5.8

- As Ibreza advised: Coco is an hydroponic medium! you cannot let it get dry, as the medium is coco+water, not "only" coco; or you'll get nute lockout and salt buildup. Best method to keep it running at 100%: use Blumats.

- 500ppm (0.7EC) for flowering plants is too lacking, that's what I feed to seedlings once they are established (0.5-0.8EC)!. Depending on the strain, EC should be somewhere between 1 to 1.8.

- No matter if you use tap or RO water, coco needs mending with Ca/Mag, either by using dolomite lime, calmag, epsom salts or whatever. Don't trust nute manufacturers... first work up from your actual EC to 1EC, 1.2EC, 1.4EC... and check plant health. If signs of cal/mag deficiencies are still there, you'll need to mend in that department. Check this Commodore's thread for a superb explanation of the impact of water characteristic on PH swing.

PH swing isn't actually a problem if you ally with it by setting initial solution at PH 5.6-5.8, if the solution is right, it will slowly swing upwards, allowing for a wider PH range nute absorption up to 6.2.

If I were in your situation:

1.- Will flush (runoff at least of same pot volume, twice if possible) all pots with 5.6-5.8 PH'ed plain water (not RO!). If you're going to use a drip system, Drip Clean is a must to keep lines unclogged, and will be great to use for flushing at this stage.

2.- Will prepare feeding solution at EC1, PH 5.6-5.8. Water all pots to runoff of at least 30% this time to ensure coco charges uniformly. I'd go with a third or half of the strength vs manufacturer instructions of the CalMag mending of your choice.

3.- If you go the blumats route, this is the moment to adjust each sensor (while pot is fully saturated but barely drips) setting it to couple drips per minute. You'll need to re-check after 6,12,24 hours to dial Blumats in to your desired runoff, I personally aim for a tiny amount of runoff.

4.- Wait several days and watch the plants for CalMag defs. Wait a week and if plants turns healthy and start growing at a very noticeable rate, increase EC by .2 each week until you reach 1.8 or so maximum (better to be on the low side).

Using drip clean has the advantage of preventing clogs on lines, but also dissolves any salt build up. If you use blumats, and coco is kept optimally moist at all times, nute lockout and salt buildup won't be an issue with advised ECs (1.6-1.8) while using drip clean.

As Ibreza pointed out there are more variables to check: humidity, ventilation, extraction, proper light height are key for success. Once you nail all of them you'll easily notice: plants grow at twice the pace vs soil.

I do something similar.

Check my thread "Small run of crumbled lime and skullcap" in Karmas sub forum.

Three gallon pots, seeds planted directly to them, watered every three days for a couple weeks at most. After three waterings of plain ph'd water it was Maxigro PPM about 250, base water ro at 40 PPM mixed with tap to 100 PPM. Bring total PPM to 350 PPM. My seedlings showed deficiency as shown in seedling pictures. I upped PPM to 400 PPM Maxigro watered two times and things got better. I since transitioned to maxibloom at 500 ppm plus base water that is 40 PPM ro mixed to 80 PPM with tap. Calmag+ to bring up to 150 PPM. Total PPM of 650. I will bump Maxibloom to 600 PPM if needed later. Watering every day. Water to runoff. I collect about four gallons runoff for five plants in three gallon pots. PH always 5.7 to 6.0.

My coco had high PH I didnt catch. Run off is high around 6.7 pH. My plants aren't a month old yet.

It is hard to over water coco. Not watering frequently enough doesnt give gas exchange in medium.

Thats my two cents. My memory sucks but the timeline of growth is in my thread. All PPMs based on the 500 scale.

repuk · Oct 27, 2017

stoned40yrs said:
In my experience drip clean doesn't do jackshit. I run blumats and quit using drip clean years ago, no difference. I also never could feed above 1.3-1.4 ec or tips burn. My plants do great at 1.2-1.3 ec till the end of week 7 when I use straight water for 2 weeks after flushing the coco with a lot of water. I use V+B nutes and never ever check the ph anymore as it always stays in range. Easy peasy, I hate making shit harder than it is.

Good to know, thanks!

EC should be tuned to the plants, of course. And the lower it is, the better outcome in quality and taste.

soundman said:
My coco had high PH I didnt catch. Run off is high around 6.7 pH. My plants aren't a month old yet.

Coco coir quality is key also, for hassle-free results look for quality coco coir, its specs should detail its treatment, having trichoderma is a quality tell-tale sign, and makes a notable difference, only time I had that kind of issues was due to sub-par coco coir.

Canna, U-GRO, Bcuzz and others make really good coco, be prepared to test and mend with less known makers (specially in brick format).

snypie said:
I am not flowering yet.

Even on veg, I think 0.7EC is too low, but for seedlings.

repuk · Oct 27, 2017

repuk said:
- No matter if you use tap or RO water, coco needs mending with Ca/Mag, either by using dolomite lime, calmag, epsom salts or whatever.

After reading this other Absolem post I'm afraid I was wrong, what an incredibly revealing post!

First coco grow -> very slow growth

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