Seeding "ACT" with piranha/voodoo/etc.

Does anybody have any info on mixing molasses in water with any of the many "benificials in suspension" products that are out there and aerating the solution?

I'm trying to veg organically right now, but have limited access to good, high quality, dialed in compost to make ACT with.

About two weeks ago I bubbled voodoo juice in molasses water for a few days. I added some compost after the first 36 hours or so in case the bacteria could use something else I wasn't providing.

It's been a little over a week since I started applying the tea (once since then). I've been amazed at the growth I've seen since. Before I began to apply the "tea", I was somewhat disappointed with growth rates. Since, growth has accelerated such that its faster than my last hydroponic grow was at this stage of development. So I'm pretty sure it's working.

I got some piranha to try. I'm aerating the tea, and will check in with results on that.

Does anybody else have experience with doing this? I'm surprised I wasn't able to find much information on this, given how expensive those products are.

007. said:

I'm surprised I wasn't able to find much information on this, given how expensive those products are.

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These sorts of products are not widely used by growers in this forum as there is an aversion by many here to bottled products, expensive biological inoculates, and particularly anything produced by AN.

If you can't get (or make quality compost), then get some worm castings to brew your tea with.

Pine

007. said:

Does anybody have any info on mixing molasses in water with any of the many "benificials in suspension" products that are out there and aerating the solution?

I'm trying to veg organically right now, but have limited access to good, high quality, dialed in compost to make ACT with.

About two weeks ago I bubbled voodoo juice in molasses water for a few days. I added some compost after the first 36 hours or so in case the bacteria could use something else I wasn't providing.

It's been a little over a week since I started applying the tea (once since then). I've been amazed at the growth I've seen since. Before I began to apply the "tea", I was somewhat disappointed with growth rates. Since, growth has accelerated such that its faster than my last hydroponic grow was at this stage of development. So I'm pretty sure it's working.

I got some piranha to try. I'm aerating the tea, and will check in with results on that.

Does anybody else have experience with doing this? I'm surprised I wasn't able to find much information on this, given how expensive those products are.

Click to expand...

right now, with temps where they are, my brews are taking less than 18 hours.

"a few days" can't be right even if it's winter in your parts.

007. said:

Does anybody have any info on mixing molasses in water with any of the many "benificials in suspension" products that are out there and aerating the solution?

I'm trying to veg organically right now, but have limited access to good, high quality, dialed in compost to make ACT with.

About two weeks ago I bubbled voodoo juice in molasses water for a few days. I added some compost after the first 36 hours or so in case the bacteria could use something else I wasn't providing.

It's been a little over a week since I started applying the tea (once since then). I've been amazed at the growth I've seen since. Before I began to apply the "tea", I was somewhat disappointed with growth rates. Since, growth has accelerated such that its faster than my last hydroponic grow was at this stage of development. So I'm pretty sure it's working.

I got some piranha to try. I'm aerating the tea, and will check in with results on that.

Does anybody else have experience with doing this? I'm surprised I wasn't able to find much information on this, given how expensive those products are.

Click to expand...

Those bennies have to make contact with roots to work as intended. It is highly questionable if they do so in a soil drench. Your results could be from the molasses, and your piranha could just be expensive microbe side course to go with their molasses dinner.

I think you will be better served to use that stuff at cloning time or at early transplants, and mix it in with the soil where roots can contact it....good luck....scrappy

Always DUST your roots with your myco's at transplant, it's the only sure way to get them in contact with the roots. If you want to add them after you've transplanted, poke 4-5 holes in your soil down into the rootzone, and sprinkle mycos in the holes, cover with fresh soil and water.
As far as your ACT's, brewing for a few days seems way too long, unless you are adding food daily. EWC, kelp meal, alfalfa meal if you can find any of these, they make amazing ACTs and are usually pretty cheap, with the exception of the EWC

As far as your ACT's, brewing for a few days seems way too long, unless you are adding food dail

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ack! no! let's get this right!

Never add food to an ACT other than when you put the brew together, unless you are using a scope.

I agree with the comments you've received. It is likely that the molasses stimulated bacterial growth in your growing media resulting in nutrient cycling to the roots. If you can list the species in the products, I can give an opinion on what might or may not grow.

Microbeman said:

If you can list the species in the products, I can give an opinion on what might or may not grow.

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I'm curious if you don't mind.

Pine

Edit: Nearly $70 bucks per liter btw.

not to butt in, but Microbeman, when you are finished with those microbes, can you talk about these? (from biotone - some I know most I don't):

Bacillus subtilis - butyric acid fermentor (facultative anaerobe?) - natto is made with this
Paenibacillus polymyxa
Bacillus licheniformis
Pseudomonas alcaligenes
Bacillus megaterium
Pseudomonas chlororaphis
Bacillus marinus
Pseudomonas putida
Bacillus coagulans
Acidovorax facilis
Bacillus thuringiensis - our old buddy! but what strain?
Arthrobacter agilis
Bacillus pumilis
Rhodococcus rhodochorus
Bacillus lentimorbus

mad librettist said:

right now, with temps where they are, my brews are taking less than 18 hours.

"a few days" can't be right even if it's winter in your parts.

Click to expand...

It's totally possible I'm brewing for too long. After just 1 day the bacteria seem to produce some kind of surfactant because I have to lower the water level in the bubbler or it will easily bubble over.

I was just brewing for a few days because I'd read that it was a good idea for actual ACT.

Microbeman, any info you could give me would be much appreciated.
Voodoo Juice contains:

Bacillus subtilis
Bacillus megaterium
Bacillus amyloliquefaciens
Bacillus pumilus
Bacillus licheniformis
Paenibacillus azotofixans
Bacillus mycoides
Bacillus laterosporus
Bacillus macerans
Bacillus polymyxa
Bacillus cereus
Paenibacillus polymyxa

Piranha contains:

Glomus intraradices
Glomus mosseae
Glomus aggregatum
Glomus etunicatum
Rhizopogon villosulus
Rhizopogon luteolus
Rhizopogon amylopogon
Rhizopogon fulvigleba
Pisolithus tinctorius
Trichoderma harzianum
Trichoderma kongii


And I understand the hate people have on for AN. Their marketing is indeed ridiculous, as are their attempts to style themselves as more "super scientific" than other nute companies. I've also heard of them taking a product from another company, adding water, and charging much more for it. But its easy to source locally for me, and if I can use my bubbling water jug to stretch the bennie products enough, they become much less pricey.

I was surprised to see everyone say I needed to apply the piranha directly to the roots. If I can make more of the fungi in molasses water, why can't I just give my soil a really good soaking in that water? Surely fungi will find roots, no?

PS: Thanks for all the replies guys.

I'm in the throws of tardy paperwork. Back at ya tomorrow.

Thanks man, I really appreciate it.

I've had a better head form as a result of inoculating my tea with EWC & FF POM Fruit & Flower in the past vs. Ewc alone, but there are too many variables to attribute it to the bacterial and fungal species contained in the "fert."

http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/amaranthus.html

It would probably depend if you were working indoors or outdoors as to which to use compost or a quality store bought product. One that has acclimatized to your outdoor area or one that's been tailored for a controlled environment. For outdoors, I feel old growth litter to be the best. I back it up with a commercial product that does help yet I wonder what is actually working and what doesn't survive or do well in the local environment. Adding it to yard litter with a cover crop of beans or clover or maybe corn, which seems to have a close relationship, would seem a way to get a starter rather than going back to the shelf every time. Make a mash, rather than a tea, to spread out in the garden to harvest fungus at will. A myco garden?

I wouldn't brew over 1 day, after that, you need to add food ( as I've heard ) and for what you do, it's not gonna multiply way more then 1 days worth


for microbes. I follow suit with GH, in there search for hydro-organic, and has been done by using Trichoderma harzianum, so I'm sure they've done many trials, and had lengthy discussions with biologists or whatever there called, to figure out what will break-down the organic nutes. yes in a technical talk you have to take into consideration microbes in the air or other microbes being added in to the system by nature... but all in all, they do it with the harzianum, they say using sub-culture B is a waste / overkill, so that should tell you alot about the other microbes.... that's all I know

this, was an interesting article someone posted a while back

007. said:

It's totally possible I'm brewing for too long. After just 1 day the bacteria seem to produce some kind of surfactant because I have to lower the water level in the bubbler or it will easily bubble over.

I was just brewing for a few days because I'd read that it was a good idea for actual ACT.

Microbeman, any info you could give me would be much appreciated.
Voodoo Juice contains:

Bacillus subtilis
Bacillus megaterium
Bacillus amyloliquefaciens
Bacillus pumilus
Bacillus licheniformis
Paenibacillus azotofixans
Bacillus mycoides
Bacillus laterosporus
Bacillus macerans
Bacillus polymyxa
Bacillus cereus
Paenibacillus polymyxa

Piranha contains:

Glomus intraradices
Glomus mosseae
Glomus aggregatum
Glomus etunicatum
Rhizopogon villosulus
Rhizopogon luteolus
Rhizopogon amylopogon
Rhizopogon fulvigleba
Pisolithus tinctorius
Trichoderma harzianum
Trichoderma kongii


And I understand the hate people have on for AN. Their marketing is indeed ridiculous, as are their attempts to style themselves as more "super scientific" than other nute companies. I've also heard of them taking a product from another company, adding water, and charging much more for it. But its easy to source locally for me, and if I can use my bubbling water jug to stretch the bennie products enough, they become much less pricey.

I was surprised to see everyone say I needed to apply the piranha directly to the roots. If I can make more of the fungi in molasses water, why can't I just give my soil a really good soaking in that water? Surely fungi will find roots, no?

PS: Thanks for all the replies guys.

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Bacillus subtilis

This is a ubiquitous soil bacteria which feeds on a wide variety of carbons, therefore it would be a likely candidate to multiply in a compost tea with molasses as a carbon food source. It is useful as it colonizes root systems and displaces certain harmful fungal and bacterial pathogens. One would expect this species to be naturally occurring in (vermi)compost and therefore inoculation from a commercial source is probably not necessary. That is unless the grower has reason to believe they require higher levels for a pathogen problem. It is rod shaped, gram positive and aerobic. It is an endospore forming bacterium which means it can enter a spore dormant state and survive far into the future in an unfriendly environ. (motile)

Bacillus megaterium

Megaterium means the big beast. It is valuable for mineralization of several nutrients/minerals, including calcium, making them available to plants and other microorganisms. It is also a ubiquitous soil microbe and also aerobic, gram-positive and spore forming. It is easy to multiply in the lab because it is able to feed from low nutrient conditions (eg. plain soil or [vermi]compost) It is a psychrophile meaning that it can survive and multiply in cold conditions (apparently down to 0 C). This all means that it could be multiplied in a compost tea but as mentioned above it likely already exists in (vermi)compost. (motile)

Bacillus amyloliquefaciens

Useful because it degrades proteins through excretions of enzymes. There are claims that it promotes P uptake, particularly in tubers. It is very similar to B. subtilis. And likely grows naturally in compost and therefore compost tea. (motile)

Bacillus pumilus

Classed the same as the bacillus species already discussed. It is even more ubiquitous than B. subtilis in soil/compost. It is valued for its anti-biotic (pumilin) properties specific to bacterial pathogens. As with the other Bacillus discussed it would be easily multiplied in compost tea but inoculation is unnecessary. (motile)

Bacillus licheniformis

This differs from the species discussed so far, in that it is a gram-positive, facultative anaerobic (motile). It produces mineralizing enzymes as do the others previously discussed and has anti-biotic (bacitracin) properties. This bacterium has similarities to B. anthrasis (anthrax) and can infect food causing food poisoning. Because it is a facultative anaerobe, I’m unsure if it will grow as readily in aerated compost tea. This bacterium is a denitrifier, the value of which is dubious (IMO) as this process NO3 can be converted to N2O or N2 a not so great gas which is released into the atmosphere (loss of nitrogen) rather than NO2 .


Paenibacillus azotofixans

This bacterium is a gram-positive, facultatively anaerobic, motile (diazotroph; fixes atmospheric nitrogen [as the name says] into useable forms of ammonia)
It fixes N under anaerobic conditions onl and is thought to mineralize/solublize organic phosphorous. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether it will multiply well in an aerated compost tea (ACT) because as in the previous it is a facultative anaerobe. It can grow in aerobic conditions but this is not ideal. I’ve always been a proponent of having some anaerobic organisms in the mix, just like nature.

Bacillus mycoides

This species of bacteria is non-motile (does not swim about) and can be identified by the colony shapes (apparently). It is aerobic and is valued for its anti-fungal properties, especially on leaf surfaces. It is another ubiquitous soil bacterium so it would (and probably does) multiply in ACT.

Bacillus laterosporus; more correctly named Brevibacillus laterosporus in the never ending taxonomy (wars) research

Is an aerobic gram-positive to gram variable, motile bacterium. Is toxic to mosquito larvae. It is another denitrifier, as discussed above and has anti-biotic properties. As with the other aerobic ubiquitous bacillus species, it is probably present in ACT anyway but could be likely easily multiplied.

Bacillus macerans; Apparently another misname by the genius Phds at AN? (keep up with the times boys)
Paenibacillus macerans; is I believe what they mean is another nitrogen fixer and I believe gram variable and I believe facultatively anaerobic trending towards aerobic making it a fairly easy multiplier in ACT.

Bacillus polymyxa & Paenibacillus polymyxa

Apparently they thought it would look better if they said the same organism twice. This species is part of a group, as is the preceding one, of nitrogen fixers which fix N only in anaerobic conditions. How this takes place exactly, I have yet to research. They also produce anti-biotics (polymyxin, colistin). These would likely grow to some degree in ACT as was mentioned regarding the other facultative anaerobes. (gram variable, motile)

Bacillus cereus

This bacterium is a denitrifier as previously described. (gram-positive, motile, facultative aerobe) It can cause infections in humans and animals and is toxic to some insect forms. It is air borne and can infect some foods (eg. cooked rice) causing food poisoning. It likely grows in ACT.

All of the above are referred to as Plant Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria (PGPR) and every Tom, Dick and Dick is throwing batches together along with some of the fungal spores that I’ll get to later and trying to flog them on the market in an effort to capitalize on the so called ‘beneficial microorganism’ fad.

The thing to consider is that when you make a compost tea or just use compost these organisms balance themselves out closer to what nature intends, rather than what some entrepreneur thinks is suitable. If you are determined to use these, just shop around for the best bang for your buck, not the fancy sounding name.

More, when I have time…..

BTW: Endomycorrhizal spores will not even sprout in ACT, nor anywhere but proximal to roots or seeds.

Piranha contains:

Glomus intraradices
Glomus mosseae
Glomus aggregatum
Glomus etunicatum
Rhizopogon villosulus
Rhizopogon luteolus
Rhizopogon amylopogon
Rhizopogon fulvigleba
Pisolithus tinctorius
Trichoderma harzianum
Trichoderma kongii

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That's a standard product from Mycorrhizal Applications - $12.40 per lb. for singles and $260.00 for 40 lbs.

Same exact product that is found in Roots Oregonism XL, Down-To-Earth Granular Root Growth Enhancer, et al.

Interesting price increases once the product leaves Grants Pass, Oregon and picks up a new shiny logo complete with promotional t-shirts, posters, etc.

CC

from wiki:
one of my favorite little stinky foods

Historically, nattō was made by storing the steamed soybeans in rice straw, which naturally contains B. subtilis natto. The soybeans were packed in straw and left to ferment. The fermentation was done while the beans were buried underground underneath a fire or stored in a warm place in the house, for example under the kotatsu.

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mad librettist said:

from wiki:
one of my favorite little stinky foods

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I tried natto at my favorite sushi place.

Once.

CC

mm, when it says (motile) at the end, we are talking the ones that move around?

so some of the ones I call wiggle rods might be some of the ones listed here?