Is this good soil?

EDIT:

I'm editing my original post to save the hassle of creating an entirely new thread.

But I read up and came acrossed the moonshine mix using fox farm. Now I'm reading that this is some pretty good soil to use. So my projected mix was this:


Happy Frog® Potting Soil
Ocean Forest® Potting Soil
Peace of Mind® Fruit & Flower Organic Fertilizer (5-8-4)

Mainly because I'm not having that much of a veg time. And people in the thread were saying that the mix has too much veg nutrients in it. I just don't know how much is too much(when it comes to NPK) I also don't know how much too mix. I'm gonna be growing 10 plants from clone under a scrog, with minimal veg time. I'm probably going to be growing them in 1.5 gallon pots.

So if anyone could tell me if those 3 would be a good soil mix. Then I'd greatly appreciate the advice.

it probably needs drainage like perlite as well, and some dolomitic lime.

it's worth a shot...

tell us how it feels and looks.

Hard to say. I bought some Hyponics brand soil and it killed my seedlings. I was told flushing it first might have helped. Not to scare you into the expensive shit. I'm using MG organic I bought on sale along with regular MG that I never should have bought but the ferts are long gone.
I'd try it depending on my seed source and timing. If I can afford to lose a few fine. If not I stick to what's known.

bump.(sorry)

I'm not an expert here by any means, but I've read speculation elsewhere that Happy Frog was really just Ocean Forest and Light Warrior mixed.

If you want my $.02 just use Ocean Forest and be sure to add dolomite lime, and then mix in some perlite and earthworm castings (there's perlite already in there mind you), and you'll be set. You want a medium that buffers the pH well, and my mix does that for me.

I wouldn't mix those nutes into the soil, Ocean Forest is good enough outta the bag, especially if you don't know how your plants will do in it. It might take a grow to dial it in, but I'd rather error on the side of caution you know?

Many here will tell you Fox Farm is am overpriced mix and offers inconsistent quality . . . that wouldn't surprise me. I know the price is pretty high, but I've never had any quality issues personally. I know others who use it and haven't had any either, but still it wouldn't surprise me.

Mixing your own gives you more control over more factors, especially quality, but I know how it is when you're starting out with Organic Soil, like I am - mixing my own seems daunting, and quantity i'm not ready for, lol.

Good luck man!

The website says ocean forest already has earthworm castings in it. Not perlite. Unless you know from using it. But I just want to verify.

Yah it has both Perlite and EWC. I've been using FF:OF for a few years on MJ and other things . . . it doesn't have enough of either, and needs about twice as much EWC added as Perlite.

Castings are a good no-burn source of Nitrogen and micro-nutes, and like lime help buffer your medium in terms of pH.

Good luck!

Thank you so much for the advice. If you could only answer one more question and then I can let this thread die. For every 1 bag of ocean forest. how much earthworm castings and how much perlite should i add? Also is the big and chunky perlite better like the moonshine mix says?

etinarcadiaego said:

Yah it has both Perlite and EWC. I've been using FF:OF for a few years on MJ and other things . . . it doesn't have enough of either, and needs about twice as much EWC added as Perlite.

Castings are a good no-burn source of Nitrogen and micro-nutes, and like lime help buffer your medium in terms of pH.

Good luck!

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I wouldn't consider vermicast (EWC) to be a particularly good source of N, especially commercial kind. And it *does not* affect the pH like lime. It does have Ca which is nice.

A major benefit from fresh vermicast is the PGRs (Plant Growth Regulators) and microbial biofertilizers, along with a source of beneficial aerobic microbes. Although, bagged and sealed commercial vermicast will probably be pretty much devoid of active beneficial aerobic microbes. Commercial vermicast will have less PGRs and biofertilizers too due to processing, compaction, addition of fillers like sand (in most commercial vermicast), heat and semi-anarobic to anarobic conditions shipping/storage conditions.

However, IMO commercial vermicast is better than no vermicast...

HTH

-.black.- said:

Thank you so much for the advice. If you could only answer one more question and then I can let this thread die. For every 1 bag of ocean forest. how much earthworm castings and how much perlite should i add? Also is the big and chunky perlite better like the moonshine mix says?

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IMO add equal parts perlite to vermicast by volume. And in general, 5-20% vermicast is ideal. However, over 8-10% vermicast could decrease the amount of air in the media by increasing its bulk density.

I suggest usually 5-8% vermicast by volume, the higher end is for commercial vermicast. How much vermicast does your soilless media have already? You could call FF and ask, I'm pretty sure they will tell you. Im assuming they used 2-5% vermicast which seems reasonable considering the cost of vermicast (either by production, or purchase). I bet if you added 5-8% vermicast and around 5% perlite (both by volume) you'd be happy with the results (given peats flaws).

The size of perlite isn't too important if using a peat or coir based soilless mediums. Though larger perlite would migrate less toward the surface in my experience, I think it gets stuck where smaller pelite does not. IMO, the migration of perlite is one of its biggest flaws, that and its crappy CEC.

HTH

-.black.- said:

Thank you so much for the advice. If you could only answer one more question and then I can let this thread die.

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No worries man I'm glad I could help, feel free to ask more if you have any more questions, i'll do my best to help!

-.black.- said:

For every 1 bag of ocean forest. how much earthworm castings and how much perlite should i add?

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Well, I believe FF:OF comes in 1.5 cubic foot bags, which is about 9.6 US gallons of soil. I mix my soil at a ratio of 4 parts soil : 1 1/2 parts perlite : 2 parts castings (4-1.5-2). 1 part of perlite is okay also (4-1-2), depending on how light you like your mix.

So for an entire bag the soil is 9.6 dry gallons, which converted to my mix it means 4 parts are 9.6 gallons (since 1 bag would be all 4 parts in this mix) and 1 part is 9.6 divided by 4, which is 2.4 gallons per part. so one mix from an entire bag of FF:OF would be:

1 "part" = a volume of 2.4 dry US gallons or .37 ft³
4 parts soil (9.6 dry gallons soil or 1.5 ft³ - one bag of soil)

1 1/2 parts perlite (3.6 dry gallons or 0.56 ft³ perlite)

2 parts castings (4.8 dry gallons or .75 ft³ castings)

When I'm prepping/mixing my soil I use a cooking pot, like the one I use to boil water or cook spaghetti. anyways I fill it up 4 times with soil, dumpiing it into a grabage bag. Then for every 4 scoops of soil I add 1 1/2 scoops of Perlite (or 1 even is okay) and 2 scoops of castings. In addition I add 1 Tablespoon of pulverized *fine* dolomite lime per gallon of medium (medium = the mixed preperation). I determine the number of gallons of medium by mixing the mix up until its enough to fill my container, then add 1 TB of lime for each gallon of soil my container holds, pour it back into the garbage bag, mix it well, then prep for transplant . . .

-.black.- said:

Also is the big and chunky perlite better like the moonshine mix says?

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I don't have a definitive answer, but I prefer the big and chunky stuff. I use perlite to increase my soils drainage qualities, and I think gallon to gallon the big and chunky adds more soil volume, and thus more drainage, but either will work.

These two girls are grown in the very mix I describe above, i added some "Plant Success" which are fungi spores, but it's my first time adding them so I'm not sure if the helped or not.

Both of em



A Cola:




Closeup of a cola:




Good luck man. What strain are you growing? What kinda lighting? ventilation? I really hope I was able to help.

ganja din said:

I wouldn't consider vermicast (EWC) to be a particularly good source of N, especially commercial kind. And it *does not* affect the pH like lime.

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Well no it's not a great source of N, but there's no such thing as a bad organic source of nitrogen, lol, especially not EWC. Also it works to help the pH, but I never said it did what lime does. EWC is a good source of humates, which are like buffers, take a look:

1. The humus in the worm castings extracts toxins and harmful fungi and bacteria from the soil. Worm Castings therefore have the ability to fight off plant diseases.


2. The worm castings have the ability to fix heavy metals in organic waste. This prevents plants from absorbing more of these chemical compounds than they need. These compounds can then be released later when the plants need them.


3. Worm Castings act as a barrier to help plants grow in soil where the pH levels are too high or too low. They prevent extreme pH levels from making it impossible for plants to absorb nutrients from the soil.


4. The humic acid in Worm Castings stimulate plant growth, even in very low concentrations. The humic acid is in an ionically distributed state in which it can easily be absorbed by the plant, over and above any normal mineral nutrients. Humic acid also stimulates the development of micro flora populations in the soil.


5. Worm Castings increase the ability of soil to retain water. The worm castings form aggregates, which are mineral clusters that combine in such a way that they can withstand water erosion and compaction, and also increase water retention.


6. Worm Castings reduce the acid-forming carbon in the soil, and increase the nitrogen levels in a state that the plant can easily use. Organic plant wastes usually have a carbon-nitrogen ratio of more than 20 to 1. Because of this ratio, the nitrogen is unavailable to plants, and the soil around the organic waste becomes acidic.


In addition EWC and himates encourages microbiological activity in soil and reduces need for nitrogen supplementation by up to 50% which is some ways is MORE effective than an organic fert supplement . . .

If you look in the organics for beginners thread, most of the answers are there.

Hey etinarcadiaego,

Sorry to say but that basically that whole list is BS, let me explain, also where did you get that list? None of this is a reflection upon you, I just don't like BS from those who act like solid sources of info, this is a common problem with EM companies:

Benefits of Worm Castings

1. The humus in the worm castings extracts toxins and harmful fungi and bacteria from the soil. Worm Castings therefore have the ability to fight off plant diseases.

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What? "Extract...harmful fungi and bacteria"??? That is not only stupid, it makes no sense, and doesn't happen. Also, extract toxins? Nope, maybe absorb some, but not extract. I love how not a single reference is given for this info which flies in the face of what I understand to be current scientific fact.

2. The worm castings have the ability to fix heavy metals in organic waste. This prevents plants from absorbing more of these chemical compounds than they need. These compounds can then be released later when the plants need them.

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"Fix heavy metals"? Again, I don't think so. The CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) of vermicast is OK, not great. The AEC is worse (Anion Exchange Capacity). And vermicast has a goodly amount of enzymes, hormones, etc, but a little more explanation of what "fix heavy metals" mean would be nice. (Again, not at you).

3. Worm Castings act as a barrier to help plants grow in soil where the pH levels are too high or too low. They prevent extreme pH levels from making it impossible for plants to absorb nutrients from the soil.

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Completely false. A lie, trust me. If you can find a single journal article or other legit source of info showing vermicast can buffer, lower or raise pH as they are inferring Ill eat crow!

4. The humic acid in Worm Castings stimulate plant growth, even in very low concentrations. The humic acid is in an ionically distributed state in which it can easily be absorbed by the plant, over and above any normal mineral nutrients. Humic acid also stimulates the development of micro flora populations in the soil.

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True, kind of. What is "inocially distributed" supposed to mean? (that's just rhetorical) Humic acid is not an ion. It an organic substance with carbon (I'm pretty sure). So again, this info rings false. Its true that HA and FA can be directly taken up by most roots, and that HA can increase the efficacy of ions into roots. So I think what they are trying to say is true, they just don't say it very well.

And I doubt there is much HA in commercial vermicast anyway. If it was fresh and moist then sure...

5. Worm Castings increase the ability of soil to retain water. The worm castings form aggregates, which are mineral clusters that combine in such a way that they can withstand water erosion and compaction, and also increase water retention.

Click to expand...

Finally!!! A completely true claim! . Except this is MUCH more true for fresh vermicast still loaded with active chemicals, enzymes, etc.

And consider how well (or poorly) vermicast will aggregate when it thoroughly mixed with sand. Its shitty most commercial suppliers of vermicast cut it with sand...

6. Worm Castings reduce the acid-forming carbon in the soil, and increase the nitrogen levels in a state that the plant can easily use. Organic plant wastes usually have a carbon-nitrogen ratio of more than 20 to 1. Because of this ratio, the nitrogen is unavailable to plants, and the soil around the organic waste becomes acidic.

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Wait what the fu* are they now claiming??? That because vermicast C/N ratio is low therefore the N in vermicast is more pant available??? They are either idiots or liers, or both.

The C/N ratio has nothing to do with acids, or types of N cations. And who puts a high C/N raw OM (Organic Matter) in the ground without composting it or turning it into vermicast first? No one wise, that's for sure, at least lay the raw OM on top of the soil, not within the soil.

So that claim the N is more available to plants is a lie, if anything, a low C/N makes the vermicast more available to bacteria, which in turn minerlize the vermicast thus freeing it to become part of the nutrient cycle. That is how the N (which is not nitrate or ammonium) from vermicast gets used by the plant.

Humus C/N ratio is 10/1 to 13/1. Microbe bodies are below 10/1. Those are examples low other low C/N OM. The C/N ratio is a concern for hot composting, but not soil in general, unless one is adding lots of high C/N OM into the media (which I suggest against, unless done as fungal food like oat meal).

A high C/N ratio makes the OM unavailable to some microbes, mostly bacteria. However, the OM and vermicast are mostly unavailable to a plant regardless of C/N.

In addition EWC and himates encourages microbiological activity in soil and reduces need for nitrogen supplementation by up to 50% which is some ways is MORE effective than an organic fert supplement . . .

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What are "himates" . This last one is true, save the reduction in needed N by up to 50%, at least not with cannabis (I have no data to back me up on that last sentence)

HTH

ganja I can't believe you bothered... kind of a funny thread now though.

Haha, that's what happens when I wake n bake! . I probally should have kept my mouth shut, your right. I just fear people actually think it's true...thanks bro

no worries man, it's better for you to set me straight than let me think something that's wrong. I actually know the people who made that website . . . sad . . .


I read your replies to each of the things on the list I pasted.

Man you tore that list up, that's sad cause I found that list a while ago. The website I got it from i've actually used some of their stuff, I bought their pepper plants this year.

Here is where it's from.

Sounds spot on to me etinarcadiaego.
FFOF with extra EWC & Perlite is one of the best mixes readily available to most people.
Your plant pics speak for themselves, they look mighty happy to me.

Ignore the pompous soil trolls & believe your own eyes!

Well now I don't know who to trust. LOL Jk

@etinarcadiaego

Thanks for sharing your recipe, I think i'm gonna try it. Could you tell me what style of growing you are doing(ScrOG,SoG,etc.) and what kind of lighting you have?


As for my grow:

Flower Room

Cooltube and exhaust

Mother room


The strain is from seeds that I have been told are some sort of pineapple strain. I've never heard of it, but they are supposed to be headies.

The 2 plants shown are the start of what is hopefully going to be my mothers. The guy says all the seeds have been female so far, so I'm praying that's true. But the plant on the right weant through some shock due to cold temperatures and I had to nip some bottom branching. Oh well. I actually notice today that the whole plant is predominantly fan leaves.

Here is an updated pic

Idk how that happened but it is what it is. I'm looking into purchasing 20 clones so that I can fill both levels of the flower cab with 10 plants under a Screen. And flower those and get a harvest in. that way I have time to veg my mothers into good bushy bonsais. after that I'm going to build an exact replica of my flower cab. So I will have 2 cabinets that hold 10 plants on each shelve. And I will cycle it so that aprox. every 2 weeks I will have a harvest of 10 plants.

If I were to use the mix that etinarcadiaego described:

4 parts soil (9.6 dry gallons soil or 1.5 ft³ - one bag of soil)

1 1/2 parts perlite (3.6 dry gallons or 0.56 ft³ perlite)

2 parts castings (4.8 dry gallons or .75 ft³ castings)

(the soil being fox farm ocean forest)

would I need to supplement by adding ferts in my water. Or would that be all the nutrition i would need and just feed water.

imo, you dont need any ewc with FFOF, its plenty rich enough