General Hydroponic vs Advanced. How different would PPMs be?

Snype · Nov 10, 2013

I got a friend who has the exact phenotypes that I have. The difference is that he uses Advanced and I use GenHydroFlora. My flavor and potency are obviously much better but he says it's because he couldn't flush but I didn't flush some plants either and have mad flavor. He thinks that the salts in Advanced are so much different than General Hydroponics and that's why he had no flavor even though I didn't flush certain plants with GenHydro and I got mad flavor. He says he has no flavor because he didn't flush but he only used 300-400 TDS while I use up to 1000 TDS on the exact same pheno's. My basic question is:

Is 1000 PPM of GenHydroFlora similar to 1000 PPM of Advanced? I believe that it's pretty similar and I can't see anyone who can run 1000 TDS of General hydro and then can't run 1000 TDS of Advanced.

He also says that he can't go over 400 TDS without the plants showing problems but in my eyes it's not the TDS or nutes that's the problem, it's the roots that are the problem in 4" rockwool cubes and the flood cycles are incorrect which is helping to create the problem. How different are the salts in Advanced compared to General Hydroponic Flora Series? I think they are the same but just at different amounts of each element but in the end salts are salts when it comes to PPM/EC. Is it normal that with GH I can go to 2 EC but if I was to use Advanced I would have to cut that more in half and be less than 1 EC with the same strains and phenos? Kind of hard for me to believe.

Rosy Cheeks · Nov 10, 2013

GH vs AN, this fight is still on? It's like watching Ali vs Foreman re-runs...

I had a period when I tested all the pot nutrients on the market, Plagron, House & Gardens, Canna, Bcuzz, Atami, and the list goes on. I never found anything that was as versatile as GH's three part nutrient, which works great in soil, coco and hydro, with soft water and hard water, cuts and seedlings as well as vegging and flowering plants, etc. I'm not saying that other nutrients don't excel in some domains, but for me this was just the best overall nutrient that you could always fall back on and get great results with in any given situation. I did Advanced Nutrients too, but never bought into their 'whole kit' solution so I probably didn't get the results as those who did. In any case, once I realized that lighting was the key to success and that there's where the money should go, rather than to luxury bloom boosters, I settled for what I knew worked.

That said, it's always interesting to see growers tweaking their grows and trying to figure out what works best for them. Thumbs up!

TREE KING · Nov 10, 2013

im glad you started this thread. i am the friend he's talkin about and ive been trying to figure this out for a long time. you have to explain the whole story correctly though there was a reason why i couldnt keep all the plants completely healthy and thats why his came out better. yes he's correct my plants were never flushed i think they needed to be. just like some people say you have to flush floranova but not the flora series. i havent started a thread on this because i figured no one could give me the reasons why i cant raise the nutes real high

snype theres a guy named homebrewer thats on rollitup and he did a dynagrow vs advanced nutrients connoisseur comparison grow. he grows the exact same style as me and in the test he gave both trays 1.2 ec. the connoisseur crop got burned to a fuckin crisp at that ec! and the dyna stayed healthy. the name of the thread is "Dyna-Gro vs Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur ".. please do some research on connoisseur and youl hear alot of people say to use 50-75% of it compared to other nutes cause its very powerful. also keep in mine your boy from the wd-40 thread, he said his boy runs floranova at 1.0 ec. i can already tell this thread is gonna get crazy lol

Snype · Nov 11, 2013

TREE KING said:
im glad you started this thread. i am the friend he's talkin about and ive been trying to figure this out for a long time. you have to explain the whole story correctly though there was a reason why i couldnt keep all the plants completely healthy and thats why his came out better. yes he's correct my plants were never flushed i think they needed to be. just like some people say you have to flush floranova but not the flora series. i havent started a thread on this because i figured no one could give me the reasons why i cant raise the nutes real high

snype theres a guy named homebrewer thats on rollitup and he did a dynagrow vs advanced nutrients connoisseur comparison grow. he grows the exact same style as me and in the test he gave both trays 1.2 ec. the connoisseur crop got burned to a fuckin crisp at that ec! and the dyna stayed healthy. the name of the thread is "Dyna-Gro vs Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur ".. please do some research on connoisseur and youl hear alot of people say to use 50-75% of it compared to other nutes cause its very powerful. also keep in mine your boy from the wd-40 thread, he said his boy runs floranova at 1.0 ec. i can already tell this thread is gonna get crazy lol

Still sounds really strange to me that's why I want to figure it out as well. PPM is PPM no matter what nutes that you use although you will get some minor differences from different amounts of elements but it's not much different. Some will have less Mg or Ca and that will be replaced with more N or more of some other element when you are looking at the PPM in numbers. I just don't think that I would have the same problem but I personally haven't tried AN. I think the easiest way to know if I'm right is to know what you are feeding the ChemDD at now that you are using GH Flora Series. If you are truly using GH now on the ChemDD crop, what PPM are you able to push them to? Are you still not able to go bast 300-400? If you are able to get up to 700 TDS / 1.4 EC with just the base GH, then you could be correct in your statements but if you are still fighting to get over 400 TDS, then you are having other issues that have nothing to do with your nutes. I could easily push the ChemDD to 1500 TDS / 3 EC without any burning but I would lose most of my flavor and the buds would be more airy.

Does anyone have anything to add to this topic? Is it really true? Do you need to lower the PPM/EC with Advanced Nutrients to less than 1 EC?

Also I find it hard to believe that the guy said that he only runs 1 EC with FloraNova without adding anything else to bring the EC up on such a heavy yielder. He's probably also adding boosters or supplements after the 1 EC / 500 TDS which would bring up the PPM higher. If that's true, we would have to know what the true PPM actually is after he added everything else.

When you nute a crop at less than 1 EC / 500 TDS the entire time, flushing is not as important as a good dry and cure. What I'm trying to say is that you should still have flavor and smells coming out of your buds even if you don't flush a crop that was nuted at 400 TDS. I think you stated that Advanced needs to be flushed but Flora Series doesn't but they contain similar salts which makes no sense to me. Maybe other people will chime in with some thoughts.

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

Snype said:
Still sounds really strange to me that's why I want to figure it out as well. PPM is PPM no matter what nutes that you use although you will get some minor differences from different amounts of elements but it's not much different. Some will have less Mg or Ca and that will be replaced with more N or more of some other element when you are looking at the PPM in numbers. I just don't think that I would have the same problem but I personally haven't tried AN. I think the easiest way to know if I'm right is to know what you are feeding the ChemDD at now that you are using GH Flora Series. If you are truly using GH now on the ChemDD crop, what PPM are you able to push them to? Are you still not able to go bast 300-400? If you are able to get up to 700 TDS / 1.4 EC with just the base GH, then you could be correct in your statements but if you are still fighting to get over 400 TDS, then you are having other issues that have nothing to do with your nutes. I could easily push the ChemDD to 1500 TDS / 3 EC without any burning but I would lose most of my flavor and the buds would be more airy.

Does anyone have anything to add to this topic? Is it really true? Do you need to lower the PPM/EC with Advanced Nutrients to less than 1 EC?

Also I find it hard to believe that the guy said that he only runs 1 EC with FloraNova without adding anything else to bring the EC up on such a heavy yielder. He's probably also adding boosters or supplements after the 1 EC / 500 TDS which would bring up the PPM higher. If that's true, we would have to know what the true PPM actually is after he added everything else.

When you nute a crop at less than 1 EC / 500 TDS the entire time, flushing is not as important as a good dry and cure. What I'm trying to say is that you should still have flavor and smells coming out of your buds even if you don't flush a crop that was nuted at 400 TDS. I think you stated that Advanced needs to be flushed but Flora Series doesn't but they contain similar salts which makes no sense to me. Maybe other people will chime in with some thoughts.

its fuckin weird i cant explain it. the same thing is happening with gh on your dd. as soon as i got up to 400 the lower leaves started yellowing and dieing off then i have to lower it. also the biggest plants look the most healthy that why i think its over nuteing. the other thing thats kind of weird is i have another crop of tranquil elephantizers and im at 550 ppm with gh and theres not one burned tip anywhere. plus every leaf is perfect. even the mothers i have of dd i cant go over 250 in veg or the plants leaves turn yellow and rust and falls off. these chem strain be givin me so much problems im not 100% sure what it is

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

heres what it looks like. also if you want i can post pics of the biggest plant on the same tray every leaf is perfect

Coconutz · Nov 11, 2013

The curing process and enviroment play much bigger roles than any salts.
Are you using any supplements?
Those plants dont look like they have nute burn. They look starved.
How often do you flood those cubes?
My plants would need water every 5 seconds in those!
Nobody has mentioned the environment.
What kind of environmental controls and lights do you have?
All I see is about nutrients. EC at different light, temp and RH levels are a big deal.
Research vapor pressure deficit.
Flood them more often with more nutes. But dont follow the directions on the bottle.
Keep it at around 1.2-1.5 ec and keep them moist. Dont ever let it dry!
I would also recommend topping them in half and/or getting rid of the lowers, once you have a bunch of nodes.
You want strong branches, not tall skinny plants. If you do SOG I would get rid of all the lower stuff and try to keep them shorter anyway...
I really only like to leave one cola on each side so that each cola is a main stalk and there arent a bunch of skinny lower branches.

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

Coconutz said:
Are you using any supplements?
Those plants dont look like they have nute burn. They look starved.
How often do you flood those cubes?
My plants would need water every 5 seconds in those!
Nobody has mentioned the environment.
What kind of environmental controls and lights do you have?
All I see is about nutrients. EC at different light, temp and RH levels are a big deal.
Research vapor pressure deficit.
Flood them more often with more nutes. But dont follow the directions on the bottle.
Keep it at around 1.2-1.5 ec and keep them moist. Dont ever let it dry!
I would also recommend topping them in half and/or getting rid of the lowers, once you have a bunch of nodes.
You want strong branches, not tall skinny plants. If you do SOG I would get rid of all the lower stuff and try to keep them shorter anyway...
I really only like to leave one cola on each side so that each cola is a main stalk and there arent a bunch of skinny lower branches.

if there starved could you please explain to me why the biggest plants are the healthyest?

let me tell you exactly what happened the day the problem started. i was at 400 ppm flooding once a day than i set the timer to flood 3 times a day and after i did that i went into the grow room and noticed the problem 24 hours later. why would it happen after i start flooding more? this is why its hard to figure out. im actually about to change the res tonight and start using floranova. up to now theres been no additives. if you guys want il do whatever you say and than il post pics of what goes on. im currently flooding twice a day. those cubes hold alot of water. humidity is 45 and temps are in the early 80's, 1000 watt lights

Coconutz · Nov 11, 2013

No way could a plant flower with 400ppm once day in those cubes.
It might be the healthiest of the bunch, but its still starved.
The cubes might hold a lot of water, but the nutes will be eaten up and they will be sitting there with nothing to eat.
When the cubes start to dry a little the ph will rise around the roots where there are leftover salts and uptake will be hindered.
Once they start getting enough food they will require water more often.
You are making it more of a tight balance between EC and watering frequency you have to keep with such a small rootzone.
The plants are gonna need a lot of water and food to put on any weight.
With temps in the 80's you should be shooting for a bit higher RH, but thats not your main concern. Id definitely urge to to research VPD when you have the time. It will improve uptake and transpiration of your plants.

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

Coconutz said:
It might be the healthiest of the bunch, but its still starved.
The cubes might hold a lot of water, but the nutes will be eaten up and they will be sitting there with nothing to eat.
When the cubes start to dry a little the ph will rise around the roots where there are leftover salts.
Once they start getting enough food they will suck up water a lot faster and you will need to flood more often.
You are making it more of a tight balance you have to keep with such a small rootzone.
The plants are gonna need a lot of water and food to put on any weight.
With temps in the 80's you should be shooting for a bit higher RH, but thats not your main concern. Id definitely urge to to research VPD when you have the time. It will improve uptake and transpiration in your plants.

no the plants that i posted are some of the smaller ones the bigger ones i have all the leaves are perfect can you explain why? the smaller the plant is the more fucked up it is im tryin to figure out why when you say they need to be fed more. here is the biggest plant i have and its totally healthy. also the problem started when i started to flood more not less

Coconutz · Nov 11, 2013

I wouldnt call that perfect... The leaves are nice and green though. If you look at how small the lower leaves are you can see that they are not happy. Those should be your biggest leaves... They are stretching without growing.
How far away from the lights are the smaller plants?
It looks like these taller ones are really far from the light because they are really skinny for being so tall.
One thing I forgot to mention in my above post is that if your plants are used to super low nutes twice per day the root mass is designed for that. They would be shocked by a lot more food or water all of a sudden. I would gradually work your way up and find what works best.

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

Coconutz said:
I wouldnt call that perfect... The leaves are nice and green though. If you look at how small the lower leaves are you can see that they are not happy. Those should be your biggest leaves... They are stretching without growing.
How far away from the lights are the smaller plants?
It looks like these taller ones are really far from the light because they are really skinny for being so tall.
One thing I forgot to mention in my above post is that if your plants are used to super low nutes twice per day the root mass is designed for that. They would be shocked by a lot more food or water all of a sudden. I would gradually work your way up and find what works best.

its an ebb n flow tray the lights are closer to the bigger plants. i keep the reflector 18" from the tallest plants. your still not answering the question now you can understand why im so confused. fuck it its worth a try. im changin the res now im gonna do that them chop off all the yellow leaves then set the ec at 1.0..

Coconutz · Nov 11, 2013

When I water with a low ec I have to water frequently, even if my coco is still moist, or my plants start to look they have problems.
Sometimes it looks like nute burn if I let it dry too much, even with a low ec, because as it dries the ec concentration rises and the ph gets all messed up.
I start my clones off at full strength as soon as I see roots because they will start to yellow and grow tall and skinny. Same with seedlings. As soon as I see leaves Im giving them full strength because otherwise I get the same problems.
Id say gradually raise the ec and start giving them more water.
You might want to look into a slab or something to give your roots more space.
I cant imagine how a large plant could survive on 4" of water twice a day. If its barely getting enough water to sustain the tissue its not going to produce.
My plants probably each transpire that much water in just minutes.

Coconutz · Nov 11, 2013

Snype said:
I got a friend who has the exact phenotypes that I have. The difference is that he uses Advanced and I use GenHydroFlora. My flavor and potency are obviously much better but he says it's because he couldn't flush but I didn't flush some plants either and have mad flavor. He thinks that the salts in Advanced are so much different than General Hydroponics and that's why he had no flavor even though I didn't flush certain plants with GenHydro and I got mad flavor. He says he has no flavor because he didn't flush but he only used 300-400 TDS while I use up to 1000 TDS on the exact same pheno's. My basic question is:

Is 1000 PPM of GenHydroFlora similar to 1000 PPM of Advanced? I believe that it's pretty similar and I can't see anyone who can run 1000 TDS of General hydro and then can't run 1000 TDS of Advanced.

He also says that he can't go over 400 TDS without the plants showing problems but in my eyes it's not the TDS or nutes that's the problem, it's the roots that are the problem in 4" rockwool cubes and the flood cycles are incorrect which is helping to create the problem. How different are the salts in Advanced compared to General Hydroponic Flora Series? I think they are the same but just at different amounts of each element but in the end salts are salts when it comes to PPM/EC. Is it normal that with GH I can go to 2 EC but if I was to use Advanced I would have to cut that more in half and be less than 1 EC with the same strains and phenos? Kind of hard for me to believe.

Some of this is true. For instance AN uses cheaper sources like urea as their main source of N. You can burn plants with urea more easily than you could with higher quality source minerals.
Not that urea is bad, its just like shooting up directly into the roots.
With that being said - Ive seen large warehouse grows pushing EC over 2.0 running An. Not in 4" cubes though.

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

Coconutz said:
When I water with a low ec I have to water frequently, even if my coco is still moist, or my plants start to look they have problems.
Sometimes it looks like nute burn if I let it dry too much, even with a low ec, because as it dries the ec concentration rises and the ph gets all messed up.
I start my clones off at full strength as soon as I see roots because they will start to yellow and grow tall and skinny. Same with seedlings. As soon as I see leaves Im giving them full strength because otherwise I get the same problems.
Id say gradually raise the ec and start giving them more water.
You might want to look into a slab or something to give your roots more space.
I cant imagine how a large plant could survive on 4" of water twice a day. If its barely getting enough water to sustain the tissue its not going to produce.
My plants probably each transpire that much water in just minutes.

i wouldnt say transpire in minutes but i get what your sayin its very interesting. the thing is the problem started when i stepped up the watering. i think i need to stop payin attention to how heavy the cubes are and just start watering more frequently from the beginning like you said and try that out. i can tell you this though if i water every 3 hours i start to get rot on most strains so every 4 hours is perfect at the end of flower for me. appreciate the help ill let you know how it works out

Coconutz · Nov 11, 2013

TREE KING said:
i wouldnt say transpire in minutes but i get what your sayin its very interesting. the thing is the problem started when i stepped up the watering. i think i need to stop payin attention to how heavy the cubes are and just start watering more frequently from the beginning. i can tell you this though if i water every 3 hours i start to get rot on most strains so every 4 hours is perfect at the end.

Im thinking your plants suck whatever nutes they can right away and then are sitting in the leftover water they wont absorb anymore if the ph and ec are out of range. Otherwise they should be sucking up that water really fast.
The only cubes Ive ever used were 2" and once my clones were rooted those things would dry up right away!

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

one last thing i forgot to tell you. the reason i dont like to water that much at the beginning is that the cubes hold alot of water and if you dont let them dry out then the root system doesnt grow out and get big. im gonna try what you said though

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

Coconutz said:
Im thinking your plants suck whatever nutes they can right away and then are sitting in the leftover water they wont absorb anymore if the ph and ec are out of range. Otherwise they should be sucking up that water really fast.
The only cubes Ive ever used were 2" and once my clones were rooted those things would dry up right away!

i can kind of tell you havent used the 4" ones before cause there nothin like the 2" ones they hold alot of water. if you soak a cube and leave it out the'l still be water in them 2 weeks later

Coconutz · Nov 11, 2013

TREE KING said:
one last thing i forgot to tell you. the reason i dont like to water that much at the beginning is that the cubes hold alot of water and if you dont let them dry out then the root system doesnt grow out and get big. im gonna try what you said though

TREE KING said:
i can kind of tell you havent used the 4" ones before cause there nothin like the 2" ones they hold alot of water. if you soak a cube and leave it out the'l still be water in them 2 weeks later

Not with a plant thats drinking in it though...
Even fully soaked a cube holds a good amount of air if you havent squeezed it.
I dont let my coco dry much at all.
Anyway, your root system isnt gonna get big in a 4" cube no mater what you try.

TREE KING · Nov 11, 2013

Coconutz said:
Not with a plant thats drinking in it...
People say that about coco, but I find that its more nute related. Dont give them too much nutes and they will have to search for it. I dont let my coco dry much at all.
Anyway, your root system isnt gonna get big in a 4" cube no mater what you try.

i got you lets see how this works out. you know im growin another strain that drinks crazy more water than the strain im having a problem with and im having no problems with it at all. fuckin weird shit

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General Hydroponic vs Advanced. How different would PPMs be?

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