Big recovery pumps

Shortburner · Jun 19, 2017

From what i understand the vaporhawg is NLA and i like the benefits of air driven as far as safety goes anyway. So we have been using a haskel on our entry level system and planned to move it over to the scaled version.

Does anyone have experience with the cmep 6000? Would it be better to build my own "vaporhawg" or just ad another haskel to speed things up?

Rickys bong · Jun 20, 2017

The CMEP6000 is two of the cmep units put together. Same issues x2...
There are lots of options out there but they require a significant budget. LeRoi, Corken, Haug, Rix, Mehrer, Blackmer all make suitable pumps if you have the budget....

HashoftheTitans · Jun 20, 2017

I would go with additional haskels if you have the compressor to handle more than one.

Jslump510 · Jun 20, 2017

im a big fan of my cmep 6000 it runs way cooler then the 2 cmep-ols i used to run, the ouput hose is warn to touch at recovery peak at best usually room temp and my thrmofisher g50 chiller actually keeps up wit my heat exchanger all day where it does not at all with the 2 cmep-ol's . its clearly faster for me aswell how much i couldnt tell you . i normal just leark but there been no info i been able to find on actually stats of the 6000 ive had mine about 5 months so far so good on a couple horizontal units :tiphat:

I suck at grammer i apologize in advance

learningta · Jun 20, 2017

Jslump510 said:
im a big fan of my cmep 6000 it runs way cooler then the 2 cmep-ols i used to run, the ouput hose is warn to touch at recovery peak at best usually room temp and my thrmofisher g50 chiller actually keeps up wit my heat exchanger all day where it does not at all with the 2 cmep-ol's . its clearly faster for me aswell how much i couldnt tell you . i normal just leark but there been no info i been able to find on actually stats of the 6000 ive had mine about 5 months so far so good on a couple horizontal units

Check how dirty the line going out of your CMEP is and get back to us when you've actually torn the unit apart to do required maintenance and see bearing grease and other nasty all over the inside of your crankcases.

Jslump510 · Jun 20, 2017

learningta said:
Check how dirty the line going out of your CMEP is and get back to us when you've actually torn the unit apart to do required maintenance and see bearing grease and other nasty all over the inside of your crankcases.

thanks for the reply will do, i havent had issues yet and have disconncected lines no weird smell ect,any other issues you found with yours or you scrap using it after your issues. I do not leave gas in the pump at the end of the day from what i think i know that causes most barring grease excaping issues am i wrong? my ol had issues from me doing that for my first 2 rebilds.

Thanks again any other things to look for is apprecated

learningta · Jun 21, 2017

Jslump510 said:
thanks for the reply will do, i havent had issues yet and have disconncected lines no weird smell ect,any other issues you found with yours or you scrap using it after your issues. I do not leave gas in the pump at the end of the day from what i think i know that causes most barring grease excaping issues am i wrong? my ol had issues from me doing that for my first 2 rebilds.

Thanks again any other things to look for is apprecated

The problem with the CMEP is that eventually the rings wear and ring wear causes blowby into the crankcase. Because it's sealed, there's nowhere for the gas to escape to, so the crankcase gets pressurized when there's positive pressure coming into the intake valves and when you are nearing the end of your recovery cycle and intake pressure is below 0 PSI the crankcase goes negative and that butane goes back out into the outgoing line.

When there's butane in the crankcase under pressure it gets into the lower rod bearing grease (the 6908 series bearings) and makes the grease less viscous and more likely to slip past the seals. When the crankcase pressure goes negative the butane leaves and may even cause the bearing grease to boil. This in turn causes the seals to fail prematurely (may even cause the seals to pop off of the bearings) and with no seal any grease that was left in between the races gets tossed out via centripetal force and splattered all over the inside of the crankcase and bottoms of the pistons and cylinders. The bearings get noisier and start screeching loudly with no lubrication, and will eventually fail and cause the internal parts hanging off the crankshaft to beat the hell out of each other.

I think that evacuating the pump at the end of the day will probably keep the bearings lasting a bit longer, as will minimizing the amount of time the pump is run into vacuum territory.

There's a couple of other threads about CMEP issues and info about venting the crankcase. The gist of these threads has so far been that everybody is talking about having better bearings but the people who have gotten the "upgraded" bearings have reported that they're not all that special (likely $70-80 for the same shit bearings you can buy on ebay for <$10 ea), and I have yet to see evidence that anyone is using a grease like Dupont Crytox that is food-grade and may put up more resistance to a solvent than a regular NGLI petroleum grease.

There's also talk on a few threads about venting the crankcase, and none of the OEM distributors are willing to perform the work. It wouldn't be hard as far as I can tell (just need to drill and tap a 1/8" FPT hole in the crankcase and put a nipple & valve on it...a competent machine shop could probably do so in a few minutes once the pump is out of the frame and off the motor) but the reason none of the OEM's are willing to do so is that it creates a possibility for air to flow into the crankcase and be pushed into the outgoing line....compressed air + butane/propane is a perfect recipe for a bomb all it needs is a source of ignition.

You could put a valve on the line but then you have to supervise it properly and I'm sure nobody wants to assume the liability of training operators to keep from turning a UL-approved explosion proof device into a device which causes explosions.

learningta · Jun 21, 2017

You'll also note that on higher end pumps that are made for pushing solvent gasses like propane and butane (OEM's like Blackmer, Corken, Edwards, etc) they usually have an inert ballast gas like nitrogen piped into the crankcase to keep air out. That also means more work and more danger inherent to venting off your storage tank when it gets pressurized...might not be such a big deal when we're talking about train cars full of solvent gas but can certainly be a hassle when we're talking about people that are largely using <100 gallon solvent tanks

Jslump510 · Jun 21, 2017

learningta said:
The problem with the CMEP is that eventually the rings wear and ring wear causes blowby into the crankcase. Because it's sealed, there's nowhere for the gas to escape to, so the crankcase gets pressurized when there's positive pressure coming into the intake valves and when you are nearing the end of your recovery cycle and intake pressure is below 0 PSI the crankcase goes negative and that butane goes back out into the outgoing line.

When there's butane in the crankcase under pressure it gets into the lower rod bearing grease (the 6908 series bearings) and makes the grease less viscous and more likely to slip past the seals. When the crankcase pressure goes negative the butane leaves and may even cause the bearing grease to boil. This in turn causes the seals to fail prematurely (may even cause the seals to pop off of the bearings) and with no seal any grease that was left in between the races gets tossed out via centripetal force and splattered all over the inside of the crankcase and bottoms of the pistons and cylinders. The bearings get noisier and start screeching loudly with no lubrication, and will eventually fail and cause the internal parts hanging off the crankshaft to beat the hell out of each other.

I think that evacuating the pump at the end of the day will probably keep the bearings lasting a bit longer, as will minimizing the amount of time the pump is run into vacuum territory.

There's a couple of other threads about CMEP issues and info about venting the crankcase. The gist of these threads has so far been that everybody is talking about having better bearings but the people who have gotten the "upgraded" bearings have reported that they're not all that special (likely $70-80 for the same shit bearings you can buy on ebay for <$10 ea), and I have yet to see evidence that anyone is using a grease like Dupont Crytox that is food-grade and may put up more resistance to a solvent than a regular NGLI petroleum grease.

There's also talk on a few threads about venting the crankcase, and none of the OEM distributors are willing to perform the work. It wouldn't be hard as far as I can tell (just need to drill and tap a 1/8" FPT hole in the crankcase and put a nipple & valve on it...a competent machine shop could probably do so in a few minutes once the pump is out of the frame and off the motor) but the reason none of the OEM's are willing to do so is that it creates a possibility for air to flow into the crankcase and be pushed into the outgoing line....compressed air + butane/propane is a perfect recipe for a bomb all it needs is a source of ignition.

You could put a valve on the line but then you have to supervise it properly and I'm sure nobody wants to assume the liability of training operators to keep from turning a UL-approved explosion proof device into a device which causes explosions.

wow thanks that was really informative. I have wanted a release valve to the case, i just have a long lpg hose with ball valve on each end to evacuate the pump after the runs.after a busy month with a move and build ill try to put up some stats and eventually do a rebild with some pics of the case, im curious the shapes its in(HOPING ITS CLEAN

)

Zipsort · Jun 22, 2017

Jslump510 said:
im a big fan of my cmep 6000 it runs way cooler then the 2 cmep-ols i used to run, the ouput hose is warn to touch at recovery peak at best usually room temp and my thrmofisher g50 chiller actually keeps up wit my heat exchanger all day where it does not at all with the 2 cmep-ol's . its clearly faster for me aswell how much i couldnt tell you . i normal just leark but there been no info i been able to find on actually stats of the 6000 ive had mine about 5 months so far so good on a couple horizontal units

I suck at grammer i apologize in advance

Using a bhogart?

Gray Wolf · Jun 22, 2017

Shortburner said:
From what i understand the vaporhawg is NLA and i like the benefits of air driven as far as safety goes anyway. So we have been using a haskel on our entry level system and planned to move it over to the scaled version.

Does anyone have experience with the cmep 6000? Would it be better to build my own "vaporhawg" or just ad another haskel to speed things up?

It remains to be seen if the VaporHawg rises from its ashes or the IP dies with Pharmgold, as they appear to be playing their cards close to their chest.

My design was based on a Welch BMP-1 pump, which is still available from Welch, and they will sell them individually around $2K each.

Some R&D and proprietary IP in the Pharmgold design, but lots of ways to skin a cat, and it used a 2 hp TEFC NEMA 7 motor and electrical.

Regardless of which pump you use, you should have a pre-filter to protect it, and the inlet cyclonic filter drier did that on the VaporHawg.

Hard to go wrong with a Haskel, though they do require a healthy compressor. They are the Energizer bunny that just keeps on ticking, without caring about the higher propane pressures and are NEMA 7, Class I, Div I.

Jslump510 · Jun 22, 2017

Zipsort said:
Using a bhogart?

Yeah on a 16 and 24 inch bfe with bi-directional flow and all the goodies on my racks, horizontal units great for volume, flooding and recovering as far as operation I'm a student of gray wolf as many of us are here so standard top down flow never seemed logical to me to much chance for error in packing and not striping the plant properly an efficiently :dance013:

SamuraiSam · Jun 25, 2017

Has anyone tried the Precision GC 5000? Our haskel moves about 1/2 lb a minute above 20psi in the recovery pot, Precision says their new electrically driven pump is C1D1 certified and will move about 1lb per minute.

Can this pump really cut recovery time in half?

Gray Wolf · Jun 25, 2017

I haven't, but lets talk apples and apples.

At atmospheric pressure on the intake, a fixed volume piston and cylinder will displace their volume each stroke, less their volumetric efficiency.

Atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 psi, so lets look at Boyles gas law P1V1 =P2V2, which tells us that for ever 14.7 psi increase on the inlet pressure, we increase the output proportionally.

Soooo the long way around to saying under what equal conditions are you comparing the different pumps?

For what it's worth, I typically average about a pound every three minutes with a Haskel, but our systems operate at relatively low pressure.

Gray Wolf · Jun 25, 2017

PS: While pressure above atmospheric increases the output of a pump proportionally, so does compressing it into a tank above atmosphere reduce it proportionally.

Pure777Extracts · Jun 28, 2017

learningta said:
I have yet to see evidence that anyone is using a grease like Dupont Crytox that is food-grade and may put up more resistance to a solvent than a regular NGLI petroleum grease.

This is the grease bhogart uses on the CMEP-OL bearings

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SkyHighLer · Jun 28, 2017

Tri-Flow Clear Synthetic Grease with PTFE is also H-1 rated, thick stuff, translucent with little odor.

https://www.triflowlubricants.com/product/synthetic-grease

jswick93 · Jun 28, 2017

I spoke with a more reputable source imo for rebuilding the cmep-ol and he is saying he doesn't use any lubricant and that the pistons definitely shouldn't be greased. Makes sense. Our trs21 has never been lubed up and it still runs beautifully after two years.

SamuraiSam · Jun 29, 2017

Gray Wolf said:
I haven't, but lets talk apples and apples.

At atmospheric pressure on the intake, a fixed volume piston and cylinder will displace their volume each stroke, less their volumetric efficiency.

Atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 psi, so lets look at Boyles gas law P1V1 =P2V2, which tells us that for ever 14.7 psi increase on the inlet pressure, we increase the output proportionally.

Soooo the long way around to saying under what equal conditions are you comparing the different pumps?

For what it's worth, I typically average about a pound every three minutes with a Haskel, but our systems operate at relatively low pressure.

The conditions under which I am currently using the EXT-420 is on a Precision PX1 with jacketed collection pot and solvent tanks. The pressure in the collection pot is usually around 40-50 psi(g) at the beginning of recovery, and the solvent tank starting around 0-10psi(g). Using a chiller coil in dry ice and alcohol we can recover passively through the Haskel for about 10 minutes before kicking on the pump and moving about a pound every two minutes for ten minutes. As head pressure in the collection pot drops, and solvent tank pressure climbs up to 40-50psi recovery slows down significantly. Total recovery time for ~20lbs solvent is about 40 minutes passive + EXT-420.

learningta · Jun 29, 2017

jswick93 said:
I spoke with a more reputable source imo for rebuilding the cmep-ol and he is saying he doesn't use any lubricant and that the pistons definitely shouldn't be greased. Makes sense. Our trs21 has never been lubed up and it still runs beautifully after two years.

We are talking about the grease in the rod bearings. If that grease gets to the pistons its from flaws inherent to the design, where butane gets into the rod bearing grease and boils it out when the pump goes into vacuum territory. If it gets past the seals centripetal force will sling it all over the inside of the crankcase, including towards the bottoms of the pistons. I wasn't aware of anyone talking about actually greasing the pistons during a pump rebuild.

Big recovery pumps

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