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Mk IV A Phoenix Terpenator

Gray Wolf

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It really comes down to cost. Because we've gotten system prices to a much more attainable level, it makes more sense to run multiple systems versus one big system. Handling too much oil at once might introduce more chance of errors unless we switch to a different purge method

Or one big multi column system that can be programmed to think like what ever sized system the job demands.

You can tell the control logic to run 2" X 12" column one at these parameters and deposit it in pot A, 3" X 36" column two to run at different parameters and deposit in pot B, 4" columns three, four, and five to run at identical parameters and dump into pot C, and 4" X 24" column six to follow yet another process path and deposit in pot D.

Pot size, temperature control and pumping capacity are the three primary control variables. Sometimes improving one, makes changes necessary in the other parameters to compensate.

IE: As the column diameter becomes larger, the time to scavenge the butane soaked into the plant material increases geometrically, because of the amount of refrigeration produced, which slows down the evaporation rates.

Ah, ha, heat the column! Worked slick, and cut 30 minutes cycle time off of the dual 4" X 24" columned Mk V, but also changed the nature of the material in the lower pot, which some of the processes go to great lengths to keep at subzero temperatures during most of the extraction.

Ergo, we now recover the columns on both the Mk IV and V separate from the lower tank, and it can even be done with a dedicated stand alone column pumping system such as on the Mk VI, or by sharing pumps with the tank, but combining the recovery streams after the pot. See attached schematic:

Good point on larger oil batches requiring different handling! I see that as possibly the next area of significant change.

We are at the practical limits of sanitary spool lower ends, because of lid deflection, and weight. Not a problem using an overhead crane, but then we move to the next level.

Clearly we can design and build anything we want, but before just making things bigger, I believe it is time to critically look at the process and question each and every component.

Although a hardy lad, or sturdy woman can handle a 10" Mk IV, it is easier when cart mounted, and handling a Mk V without cart mounting it, is asking for an injury.

Just a 12" pot is manageable, but more than you can ask employees to lift on an ongoing basis without lift assistance.

We have also reached the point that much of the processing is done subzero to produce shatters and waxes for vaporizing, and we are searching for ways to retain more of the monoterpenes, yet be relatively free of waxes.

With a Terpenator style system, propane is an option, as long as the rest of the system supports its use. Way easier to purge with a boiling point of -42°C (-43.6°F), without losing monoterpenes.

With a Terpenator style system, you can also extract with subzero solvents, so as to not pick up plant waxes in the first place, so I predict changes in the way we control butane temperature at injection.

A growing number of folks building Terpenator style systems around the world, and I predict with that many keen minds involved, the speed of evolution will increase dramatically.

Since there is already a split on whether it is better to remove the plant waxes afterward using single solvent de-waxing techniques, or just not pick them up in the first place, I see evolution there too. Easy enough to chill the mixture even more once it has been dumped, and vent it into another tank, through a filtration cartridge to remove any plant waxes that precipitate out.

Sooooo, where will all this cooling capacity come from? Working on that and have engaged the keen alleged mind of a professional brother in the cryogenic gas and equipment field, to see what insight he can add, between program managing gas recovery plant installations.

Liquid nitrogen is one possibility. Relatively cheap, being 78% of the atmosphere and easy to obtain by simple air reduction, it is used as the refrigerant in exotic gas recovery systems, to drop their temperatures low enough to fractionate.

Hee, hee, hee, awhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!1 What a fun way to spend retirement!
 

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it seems to me that the dual column setup is just overly complex, but that is me. I'd rather run two systems staggered. Plus, I would imagine it would be cheaper overall.
 

Sextracts

Member
Could i get a link to a 100lbs storage tank suitable for our needs? I found little rated for r-600a, is one rated for r-134a okay to use?
 
Do you think that by introducing crushed dry ice into the system would be 1) safe 2) effective at keeping butane cold through the process. Possibly replacing the end cap reducers and going back to the concentric reducers in which you could pack with the crushed dry ice, therefore chilling it during a bottom or top flood. Is it possible that it would be efficient enough to keep it chilled to colder than ideal temperatures at which time changing the amount of Dry ice in the system will allow you to dial in your extraction temperature by knowing the exact amount of DI to introduce for a given column size? I'm sure that after collection CO2 would have to be purged from the tank but seems easy enough (says the guy full of hypotheticals)
 

Gray Wolf

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manchester is the only one I know of that makes a 100lb.

We use Manchester 100# tanks, thus far from Century Tool. A 125# tank is long and skinny, so has less surface area. A Mk VI uses a 500# tank.
 

Gray Wolf

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it seems to me that the dual column setup is just overly complex, but that is me. I'd rather run two systems staggered. Plus, I would imagine it would be cheaper overall.

It certainly adds to the complexity, and agree with you on the smaller Mk III's, and IV, but decided on multiple columns on anything larger for several reasons.

The first is that we've found shorter columns to be more efficient than long ones.

That becomes a larger issue as the columns become larger and longer.

As the push for more capacity, pushes both of our Terpenator designs, and the columns get longer and longer, either efficiency suffers, or quality.

To fully flush the discharge end of the column, requires over flushing the inlet end, requiring an average compromise. You have the option of giving up product or quality, or as suggested, just compromising both.

4" X 48" columns are clumsier to handle for most folks, than 4" X 24" columns.

I'm old and frail compared to my more robust mid life self, but even then at 185 lbs, I would have found a 12" X 12" lower end by itself heavy and clumsy, so WolfWurx Mk V's only come as a DIY parts kit, or mounted to a stainless rolling frame that supports the Mk V itself, and allows the operator to handle the pot as a stand alone issue.

That makes it easy to mount any size column, but taller than about 24", I need a step ladder. Of course as a wolf I'm short, but still taller than most women when I stand on my hind legs, and some of those women and other short brothers will be operating the equipment.

Lastly, the shorter columns are faster to recover than longer ones, and we're trying to drive down our cycle time. Closing off the columns from the pot, driving up the temperature fast, and recovering them separately from the pot are all part of that effort.

As far as two systems instead of one. I can't put together two Mk IV's for the price of one Mk V, but agree two would give greater utility at some higher price.

The Mk V is oriented towards folks with a lot of material to wade through, which has greater utility at the margin for them than being able to run the same lot of material in more separate batches.

It is also an automation platform, to allow the use of workers with lower technical skills, and to permit them to run multiple machines more easily, without losing track.
 
oh dear god, I would never want to run a 4x48 column. There are enough problems associated with a 4x36! But I agree, for those running LARGE amounts of material, a higher volume system is nice. I figure if they are grinding, they must get a little over 5lbs total a system?
 
it just takes a long time to reclaim your butane. I've never used a 4x48 column, but a 4x36 is more than enough and height becomes and issue
 

Kcar

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Do you think that by introducing crushed dry ice into the system would be 1) safe 2) effective at keeping butane cold through the process. Possibly replacing the end cap reducers and going back to the concentric reducers in which you could pack with the crushed dry ice, therefore chilling it during a bottom or top flood. Is it possible that it would be efficient enough to keep it chilled to colder than ideal temperatures at which time changing the amount of Dry ice in the system will allow you to dial in your extraction temperature by knowing the exact amount of DI to introduce for a given column size? I'm sure that after collection CO2 would have to be purged from the tank but seems easy enough (says the guy full of hypotheticals)

I thought about it, and it seems like a really bad idea to me.
As that DI sublimates off, your pressures are going to go crazy high. Plus, your recovery pump will die a quick death trying to
recover CO2. And these extractors are not made for that kind of
pressure.
 

Gray Wolf

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I thought about it, and it seems like a really bad idea to me.
As that DI sublimates off, your pressures are going to go crazy high. Plus, your recovery pump will die a quick death trying to
recover CO2. And these extractors are not made for that kind of
pressure.

What KC said.

Introducing non condensible gases grinds things to a halt as the pressure goes up.

Easy to just start with frozen material and introduce subzero butane instead.
 

Gray Wolf

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oh dear god, I would never want to run a 4x48 column. There are enough problems associated with a 4x36! But I agree, for those running LARGE amounts of material, a higher volume system is nice. I figure if they are grinding, they must get a little over 5lbs total a system?

Yeah, one of the problems associated with a 4 X 36" column for me, is the need for a step ladder or a platform.

Yup, a 4" X 48" probably would hold close to 5# of 10 mesh material by my numbers too.

The dual 4 X 24" columns on the Mk V have run between 3.5# and 5#, depending on what was loaded.
 
I see, so what is the purpose of having a narrower injection line and wider extraction ports?

Quoting you from the BHOgart thread;
Resistance to flow is from friction against the walls of the hose, and the pump has a 1/4" inlet so anything larger than 1/4" reduces the friction against the walls, by giving the same volume of air, a greater volume to expand into.

There are practical limits, and at some point the larger volume comes into play as well, from the standpoint it is more volume to evacuate. The sweet spot lies somewhere less than 1/2".

My take on that was that 3/8" would be sufficient, and 1/2" would be excessive.

Thank you for your time GW..
 

Gray Wolf

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I see, so what is the purpose of having a narrower injection line and wider extraction ports?

Quoting you from the BHOgart thread;


My take on that was that 3/8" would be sufficient, and 1/2" would be excessive.

Thank you for your time GW..

You are injecting as a liquid under pressure and extracting as a vapor under vacuum. It is apples and oranges.

I stepped up the injection port size from 1/4" to 3/8", because at subzero temperatures, butane gets thicker and harder to move through the material. I also increased the vent size to 3/8" for the same reason.

Pipe and tubing are dimensioned differently, so the Schedule 40 1/4" pipe measured by OD actually has a nominal ID of about .364", and tubing is measured by ID, so a 3/8" tube is a closer match.
 

icdog

Member
Hey GW you took out the concentric reducers. I'm thinking of doing the same thing. No issues with the hole size from the 4" column down to the 2 inch piece underneath and any end product getting stuck in the column?
 

Gray Wolf

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Hey GW you took out the concentric reducers. I'm thinking of doing the same thing. No issues with the hole size from the 4" column down to the 2 inch piece underneath and any end product getting stuck in the column?

Since we are soaking the material and flooding from both directions, it should be minimal.
 
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