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Hoses for Closed Loop Systems

FishmanK

Member
hose1.jpeg
Starting this thread seeking feedback on hose assemblies for closed-loop extraction systems.
--
In seeking information for getting hoses made for a closed loop system, issues of construction details have come up.

"smooth-bore" or "convoluted"?
It strikes me that smooth-bore hoses are mostly used but seemingly, systems that draw down to vacuum and then go to positive pressure in repeated cycles, possibly should be using a hose with a convoluted lining?

"non-conductive" vs "conductive"
this small but concise statement from the goodyear rubber company on this subject, states in conclusion:

"UNLESS A HOSE IS DESCRIBED SPECIFICALLY AND
CLEARLY BRANDED TO BE CONDUCTING OR
NON-CONDUCTING, IT MUST BE ASSUMED THAT THE
ELECTRICAL PROPERTIES ARE UNCONTROLLED
"

So while most ptfe hose assemblies are considered to be "non-conductive"
In truth they are more accurately "not conductive" and may not actually be "certifiably non-conductive"?

---
Generally, the industry standard uses a PTFE with a stainless steel braided jacket.
More durable, possibly safer hoses are available with PTFE cores, also wrapped by braided-stainless-steel, but with hytrel, pvc, or silicone outer jackets and can be purchased in custom lengths, with professionally fitted ends for very reasonable cost.
Better bend radius and durability as well as color options which present themselves, make this an attractive alternative.

PVC%20Jacket%20Colors%20PTFE%20Hose.jpg
aflex.jpg
Silicone%20Jacket%20PTFE%20Hose.jpg


But statements have been made by respected sources that the issue of static built by pumping solvent should be considered.
That certified CONDUCTIVE hoses should be used.
--
One major extractor production company now just uses BUNA hoses for cost and durability. But these are by nature not conductive.
A respected industry leader has gone on record stating a preference for conductive carbon impregnated PTFE hose to guard against static buildup from the flow through it.

hosesTOO.jpg

Clearly, the issue warrants more thought than that put into buying a hose for our garden and plants...

 

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
We use carbon filled PTFE hoses. They are a requirement for certification.

We switched to Detroit Flex for the hoses, because they wrote a letter to the certifying agency stating it met the requirements of UL-21, while Swagelok and United Hose declined.
 

FishmanK

Member
Thx GW, once again, for your wisdom :tiphat:

So beyond certification concerns, where does this issue stand in terms of priority for a CLS operator in general?
It's stated on-line that hose failure from static discharge is a known issue (which presumably, is catastrophic...) and in one thread Montroller posted a diagram of a partial grounding system for fuel storage tanks

Can systems with non-conductive hoses be effectively grounded with a wiring harness?
How necessary is this?
 
Last edited:

FishmanK

Member
In speaking to a hose fabricator, the convoluted lines would be appropriate if they carried warmed gasses then were drawn to vac at 200F +

but not needed if going towards vac at room or lower temps...
Good to Know!

~~~~~~~

Also he carries the Conductive PTFE tubing, but only in a plain braided style.
After a short conversation, wherein I mentioned that others might like a jacketed option and order them, he seemed motivated and volunteered to do some research on whats available now in colored, jacketed, conductive PTFE tubing.
They already carry these:
Silicone%20Jacket%20PTFE%20Hose.jpg

the red and blue in a range of sizes (white in only one diameter), but they are NON-CONDUCTIVE

Im wondering how real the risk is with shorter lines on smaller systems with less volume being moved.
And if there is a risk, if grounding the system would virtually eliminate it.
 

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
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Thx GW, once again, for your wisdom :tiphat:

So beyond certification concerns, where does this issue stand in terms of priority for a CLS operator in general?
It's stated on-line that hose failure from static discharge is a known issue (which presumably, is catastrophic...) and in one thread Montroller posted a diagram of a partial grounding system for fuel storage tanks

Can systems with non-conductive hoses be effectively grounded with a wiring harness?
How necessary is this?

No, the spark just blows holes in the hose making it to ground.
 
We use carbon filled PTFE hoses. They are a requirement for certification.

We switched to Detroit Flex for the hoses, because they wrote a letter to the certifying agency stating it met the requirements of UL-21, while Swagelok and United Hose declined.

I can confirm this for Detroit Flex Defense. They are willing the write a letter to an industrial hygienist if you need third party peer-review for your system. Plus how badass is it that the parts on your instruments is the same quality in military weaponry.

Speaking with the Swagelok rep in my area, he said that he too would be willing to work with the peer-reviewer. Food for thought.
 

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I can confirm this for Detroit Flex Defense. They are willing the write a letter to an industrial hygienist if you need third party peer-review for your system. Plus how badass is it that the parts on your instruments is the same quality in military weaponry.

Speaking with the Swagelok rep in my area, he said that he too would be willing to work with the peer-reviewer. Food for thought.

Damn straight! Not only food grade, but weapons grade! That's what ah'm talking about!

Our Swagelok rep worked it pretty hard with the factory/corporate for a letter without success, but if your rep is more charming and has more resources, please strongly suggest he proceed getting us a letter, if Swagelok wants the business.
 

A6 Grower

Member
Veteran
What hoses are we talking about from Detroit? I want to order some lol. That will new motto, weapons grade extraction, lol
https://detroitflexdefense.com/hose-accessories-highpressure/military-grade-braided-teflon-hose/
Low Pressure Convoluted hoses look like what i want??? or Medium Pressure Smooth Bore Hose ???

Also This guy _mcdabbin on IG has some sweet hoses in his 502 lab hooked up to his iron fist. Where do i get these??
https://www.instagram.com/p/8Cu6AMFDwdN8wAQMazkiy5zoRUs8FwINxXP6k0/?taken-by=_mcdabbin

I thought he said they were some insulated PTFE hoses
 

Old Gold

Active member
What hoses are we talking about from Detroit? I want to order some lol. That will new motto, weapons grade extraction, lol
https://detroitflexdefense.com/hose-accessories-highpressure/military-grade-braided-teflon-hose/
Low Pressure Convoluted hoses look like what i want??? or Medium Pressure Smooth Bore Hose ???

Also This guy _mcdabbin on IG has some sweet hoses in his 502 lab hooked up to his iron fist. Where do i get these??
https://www.instagram.com/p/8Cu6AMFDwdN8wAQMazkiy5zoRUs8FwINxXP6k0/?taken-by=_mcdabbin

I thought he said they were some insulated PTFE hoses

Heh. Check out the MIL-H-38360 hose. If we talkin' military grade.
Scuuuuba 'straction!!!
:muahaha::shark::off2:
 
What hoses are we talking about from Detroit? I want to order some lol. That will new motto, weapons grade extraction, lol
https://detroitflexdefense.com/hose-accessories-highpressure/military-grade-braided-teflon-hose/
Low Pressure Convoluted hoses look like what i want??? or Medium Pressure Smooth Bore Hose ???

Also This guy _mcdabbin on IG has some sweet hoses in his 502 lab hooked up to his iron fist. Where do i get these??
https://www.instagram.com/p/8Cu6AMFDwdN8wAQMazkiy5zoRUs8FwINxXP6k0/?taken-by=_mcdabbin

I thought he said they were some insulated PTFE hoses

I just worked with the rep to meet my requirements. They will design a custom hose for your application if need be.
 

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
What hoses are we talking about from Detroit? I want to order some lol. That will new motto, weapons grade extraction, lol
https://detroitflexdefense.com/hose-accessories-highpressure/military-grade-braided-teflon-hose/
Low Pressure Convoluted hoses look like what i want??? or Medium Pressure Smooth Bore Hose ???

Also This guy _mcdabbin on IG has some sweet hoses in his 502 lab hooked up to his iron fist. Where do i get these??
https://www.instagram.com/p/8Cu6AMFDwdN8wAQMazkiy5zoRUs8FwINxXP6k0/?taken-by=_mcdabbin

I thought he said they were some insulated PTFE hoses

Smooth bore.
 

FishmanK

Member
I thought he said they were some insulated PTFE hoses

I said
that jacketed hoses provide a superior insulative value as opposed to non-jacketed hoses, which wasnt a very large claim :)
its logic
an extra layer of something that doesnt conduct well will slow loss of heat or cold...
if the jacket is removed on the hose I was looking at, it would be the same PTFE core with stainless braid that is commonly in use, except I am leaning to only running the carbon-impregnated, PTFE that is conductive
the non-conductive core hoses (that are what is largely available at shops and sites NOW) can be made conductive at fabrication time but its an extra (expensive) step, so pointless when conductive core hose is available and I am hearing this is possibly an emerging-awareness issue
 
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